criss angel discussion...

Perhaps this is one of the reasons which have caused D.C. to become disiilusioned with the whole field of magic, he feels that years of training and practice have become second best to camera trickery and video edits. Why bother to further your craft and work hard, when you can achieve similar or better effects with trickery and get the same money, or even more. If you get into bed with gangsters, you wake up with them the next morning. Why bother to work 500 shows a year, when a one off T.V. special can run for ages and get better ratings than working your butt off. I agree that I would take a step backwards if I were still an active performer, that is called selling my soul to the devil and I would do it if money were a main motivator in my life. What is the point, in doing the same old same old, when you are forced to stop believing in your own Magical abilities. As a performer a great part of our craft is acting the belief that Magic is real, if I can achieve a one off show using camera tricks and edits etc, why should I even bother trying harder, why not take the easy way out and decieve even more. That is one of the reasons which I have said in the past that the Magical field is stagnating at the
present. Why should any of us bother, when the end result is the same, or better.

Civility costs nothing, other people here question opinions without resorting to personal attacks. humour for instance, can help, we are supposed to be helping to uncover truths, not shout each other up. The problem with insults is that sometimes we get so annoyed with being insulted, that we retaliate. This is wrong! and I personally appologise if I have offended anyone here, it is just that when people get so angry that they throw insults and put you on ignore, how can you discuss an issue seriously with them?

eah well the best i think ive see, is him push over a palm tree. Thats freaking insane. a semi truck ca be stopped ead in its tracks from a palm tree. not too many tricks available for that one.

hes probably a "psychic vampire". thats why he needs the people to focus so much

Originally posted by NephraTari
I have already explained to EW how this could be done with the use of magnets. Quite alot of "magic" is done with the assistance of magnets.
He ignored the possiblity by saying that criss angel could not have afforded such a device.
Im sorry. Magnets are not that expensive at all. And anyone capable of doing illusions can concoct a magnetic device to assist them with their illusions.

It is done all the time.

No...it is not done all the time.

Oh yes...it is quite possible to artificially produce levitation with electromagnetism.

But the clincher in that scenario is the PRICE of such custom-made high-tech equipment, which may in fact be in the MILLIONS OF DOLLARS range

If it is all that accessible and affordable to the common nightclub act magician, then we would all be seeing literally HUNDREDS of illusionists doing precisely the same thing and surrounded (like Criss Angel) with an abundance of eyewitnesses who attest to those feats of high levitation.

We do not and therefore they cannot.



[edit on 19-2-2008 by Paul_Richard]

Exactly PR..AND, that kind of equipment and power source CANNOT be contained in anything that would fit into the small area just beneath the Luxor topmost level. Pavil guesses that something no bigger than a barrell was hauled up there and all this stuff was just laying there and yet could lift Criss perfectly smoothly and accurately as seen. Nonsense!!

Maybe the guys at Sandia should go to Criss and find out why he can levitate a man, and yet the most advanced lab on earth has trouble lifting a small metal ball into the air. But of course the deniers must cling to the most farfetched and desperate imaginings to sustain their tortured bel;ief in Criss having some ability to get equipment and silence witnesses and pull off levitations like no one else.

My God, if such equipment were available, at any proce, we would be reading about it in the trade magazines and seeing demonstrations of it on Youtube and TV. If a man could be lifted high in the air with perfect precision, and the man has NO visible magnets or metal or any other way to be repulsive to the force of magnetism, then there would be some literature, some proof that it exists and is available to the public and small enough to ' not require permits ' for the installation of such equipment.

The deniers will believe ANYTHING, no matter how crazy and illogical, as long as at the end of it they walk away with their preconceived notions of reality still in charge of their reasoning and analytical abilities.

Thats the plain and cold truth. Nothing else makes any sense. If Pavil and the rest believe that magnetis was used, then let's see ONE other example that would make us believe that it is even remotely possible. If not, then we can safely assume that this is just another indication of the desperation that paluges the denier: Any answer will do except that Criss can levitate.They start with a foregone conclusion based on zero evidence and hold onto it like a life raft on the Pacific.

After all, once the raft sinks, they are in the water with the sharks, (US) and their fate is determined the moment they enter the water. thats why they keep huffing and puffing and trying to keep that raft afloat: It is all they have.

reply to post by eyewitness86


I've never said magnets were used. Infact, the method is a rather mundane ordinary method, just crafted for this trick in particular ways. It still cost quite a bit of money, don't mistake me, its not something the average person or magician could afford.

They start with a foregone conclusion based on zero evidence and hold onto it like a life raft on the Pacific.

You do have a way with words, I could not have stated it any better than you did. Except that it would refer to your beleifs.

[edit on 19-2-2008 by pavil]

Hi Eyewitness86 et al,

Originally posted by eyewitness86
Exactly PR..AND, that kind of equipment and power source CANNOT be contained in anything that would fit into the small area just beneath the Luxor topmost level.

Good point.

Originally posted by eyewitness86
My God, if such equipment were available, at any price, we would be reading about it in the trade magazines and seeing demonstrations of it on Youtube and TV.

I am not completely convinced that we would be reading about it or seeing it online, at least for a while. It appears that the well-known and wealthy illusionists hide that information like the US government hides and covers-up information about Reticulans. However, occasionally something does leak out, like the online overview of how David Copperfield pulled off the illusion of making the Statue of Liberty disappear - by having the audience on a rotating stage and misdirecting them.

Earlier in this thread, BlackGuardXIII testified to having seen David Copperfield LIVE levitating over a stage and even the audience. But the very fact that David Copperfield hasn't come out with his own street magic video with a plethora of witnesses to back up his feats, performing in parks, on city sidewalks, and in golf courses, does point to him levitating through artificial means, not from a Gift of Chi or Prana.

Here is EXACTLY how David Copperfield pulls off the illusion of levitation and flying (and performed ONLY indoors where he can rig up all the needed equipment):

How Does David Copperfield Fly?

Additionally, if David Copperfield truly had a Gift of Prana or Chi, he would definitely pursue a street magic type video, as it would mean MUCH MORE MONEY; especially if you are talking about international television and subsequent DVD sales

Like Criss Angel has now.



[edit on 19-2-2008 by Paul_Richard]

reply to post by Paul_Richard



Quite frankly I'm baffled that you would provide the DC flying link. So now you acknowledge that in Vegas there is a company that makes the ultra thin, ultra strong wire. Thank You. I also did not see any wires with David Copperfield, are you contending there are "invisible wires" holding him aloft?. Are you making our points for us?

UTTER NONSENSE!! DC is FLYING, all this talk of invisble wires just prooves how feeble your arguement is. I see no wires,I see no "invisble winch", proove they exist!!!! Till then you have NOTHING! That was just for you eyewitness. Please take it in the good spirit it was intended.

Criss Angel's levitations are rather less complex in motion but probably more complex in the setup, being not on a stage.

Thanks for providing the proof of invisible wires and the source of said invisble wires.





[edit on 19-2-2008 by pavil]

reply to post by pavil



So, now we have a non-magnetic affair, yes? I suppose that the ' simple ' contraption to never will discuss could fit in the small space directly beneath the stairs that lead to the top level. That is a small area. You believe that this contraption would not be attached or require permitting from the powers that be. A portable contraption that fits in that tiny area, that would allow Criss to levitate in the worlds brightest light with no props seen.

Pavil, sooner or later you are going to have to stop beating around the bush and come out and say what you believe that contraption consisted of, and how it could account for the utter lack of visible props. Just saying the it is a trade secret when a gang of you here already claim to know it is nonsense and you know that as well.

Just tell in a brief description what kind of contraption could be just sitting in a cramped area beneath a number of stairs and tiny platforms under the trapdoor that could render Cris able to levitate and show ZERO props on film. I am really curious. I thought all this out before I came to the conclusion that Criss could levitate.

By the way Pavil, I had a brilliant 10,000 word rebuttal typed and finished yesterday and at the very end I made the mistake of trying to delete a character that was after the limit, and it deleted it all. I was too sick with anger to do it again, but I will soon. They need to fix that....

Anyway, go ahead. What have you got to lose? You know that we already hold the standard deniers beliefs in contempt anyway...or at least we strenuously disagree that they have any validity whatsoever...but the bottom line is that you are now backed into a corner. Either you finish the saga and give us the lowdown on the possible and likley manner it was done, according to you, or admit, for God's sake, after all this time and energy, that you really do NOT know how Criss manmages to do it. That would be a huge hurdle and honest at least.

Then we can work on getting you fully into the groove of human potential that exceeds the mundane and accepted ways of seeing reality. Just saying you know the details of this fantastic device is not enough; it is time to show us the answer, if you dare to. You know that if it is some far out and ridiculous assumption with little or no chance of being possible, then of course you will be back at square one and we will have held the line we always have: No evidence exists, and no contraption has been described, which can account for what Criss does. Period. If you have the hammer that shatters our beliefs, swing it. If not, say so.

Originally posted by Paul_Richard
Additionally, if David Copperfield truly had a Gift of Prana or Chi, he would definitely pursue a street magic type video, as it would mean MUCH MORE MONEY; especially if you are talking about international television and subsequent DVD sales

Like Criss Angel has now.

You do realize that David Copperfield OWNS his own ISLAND in the Caribbean don't you? Does Criss Angel have that? I am pretty sure DC is not hurting for money as he did TV specials and actually toured as well.

reply to post by eyewitness86


Of course your 10,000 word reply was brilliant, of that I have no doubt.

I have never stated it was magnets as far I as recall, refresh my memory if I am wrong.

I have said and posted enough for those willing to search to find out. Sorry you will not get more out of me than that. Yes the object in question was up there, yes it would fit in that area, yes it was not psycially mounted to the Luxor in any real manner, ie cables, bolts ect. It was just sitting up near the top of the apex of the Luxor's pyramid and the shots were done carefully to conceal the object in the Mindfreak video.

I don't really care if you believe it or not, I am well aware that nothing short of CA doing a full "how I did it" video would convince you and even then you would say how "brilliant" CA would be for doing that, to throw us off his real "powers".

How does DC fly? I see no invisble wires holding him up?

reply to post by pavil


Copperfield has been a REGULAR magician for a long time, and over the years could afford more and better PROPS. However, Pavil old pal, he NEVER has or can do the street and public events that Criss does and so is in a totally different popsition anyway. How much money he made over the last 15-20 yearsreally has nothing to do with the fact that Criss and Criss alone can do high levitations in public and where no props are possible; unless of course you decend into denier madness and envision all the erased video's and paid witnesses and other nonsense that are standard fare for the denier.

I am waiting for your description of this device that you imagine accounts for the Luxor event.....

reply to post by eyewitness86


So as magicians get more and more money, they are able to do more and more elaborate tricks? Thanks EW for proving yet another point of ours. You and PR are on the beleiver side right?

Don't hold your breath waiting for a sketch.... I have given you all you need. Call me whatever names you wish, they will not faze me.

Originally posted by pavil
Quite frankly I'm baffled that you would provide the DC flying link. So now you acknowledge that in Vegas there is a company that makes the ultra thin, ultra strong wire. Thank You. I also did not see any wires with David Copperfield, are you contending there are "invisible wires" holding him aloft?. Are you making our points for us?

I am a pretty objective guy and merely added more evidence behind the notion that David Copperfield is only a seasoned illusionist and that he has no Gift of Prana or Chi - as does Criss Angel - and for the reasons I have stated repeatedly.

Originally posted by pavil
UTTER NONSENSE!! DC is FLYING, all this talk of invisble wires just prooves how feeble your arguement is. I see no wires,I see no "invisble winch", proove they exist!!!! Till then you have NOTHING! That was just for you eyewitness. Please take it in the good spirit it was intended.

Hey, I would be happy to agree with you. But in addition to my own cultivated intuition, there are those same points of reason and observation that indicate his levitation and flying to be only with the aid of wires:

1. David Copperfield never does his flying outside (in the open air), as in a street magic video.

2. David Copperfield has never done a street magic video at all. One whereby he levitates off of city sidewalks, golf courses, parks, etc.

3. David Copperfield never has any witnesses to validate that he is flying outside of a specially rigged magician's stage.

In order to have wires, there has to be a complex and bulky apparatus overhead, i.e., above a magician's stage. Criss Angel does his levitations out in the OPEN AIR. No chance or need of having an apparatus overhead. This constitutes a BIG DIFFERENCE between the two as to how they pull it off.



[edit on 19-2-2008 by Paul_Richard]

Originally posted by pavil
You do realize that David Copperfield OWNS his own ISLAND in the Caribbean don't you? Does Criss Angel have that? I am pretty sure DC is not hurting for money as he did TV specials and actually toured as well.

David Copperfield has been at it much longer as an illusionist than Criss Angel has been at it as an illusionist AND a telekinetic

But even with all of Copperfield's millions of dollars and his own Caribbean island, he STILL cannot fly (or teleport) in the open air like Criss Angel does.

Which just goes to show you that money cannot buy everything.

reply to post by Paul_Richard


Rigs can quite easily be used outdoors and believe me they can be well disguised without resorting to camera tricks. Sometimes lifting gear need not be above the performer, but can be ground based, hence no need for large cranes at times. However the supporting wires need to be ( guided ) above the performer and there are a couple of ways to achieve this.

reply to post by Paul_Richard



At least I can appreciate your viewpoint. We just disagree on the "Street Magic" being really open to the public. The lack of huge crowds around CA when his levitations occur tend to make me think they are just as staged as DC's stage productions. It also lends credence to the thought that the "audience" are stooges for CA, as to the best of my knowledge, CA has never announced his levitations in advance of them happening, thus not getting a large crowd present.

But even with all of Copperfield's millions of dollars and his own Caribbean island, he STILL cannot fly (or teleport) in the open air like Criss Angel does.

No, I bet he takes his own private Jet down to his Island. "Boy are my arms tired".

Originally posted by Qwenn
Rigs can quite easily be used outdoors and believe me they can be well disguised without resorting to camera tricks. Sometimes lifting gear need not be above the performer, but can be ground based, hence no need for large cranes at times. However the supporting wires need to be ( guided ) above the performer and there are a couple of ways to achieve this.

Outside of advanced electromagnetism apparatus that is miniaturized and incredibly expensive (if it is even available at all), in order to support your supposition, we would need a video link to that kind of event, along with eyewitnesses who testify to it having actually happened.

Then we could compare that footage to the high levitations with witnesses of Criss Angel at work.

Originally posted by pavil
No, I bet [David Coppefield] takes his own private Jet down to his Island. "Boy are my arms tired".

[edit on 19-2-2008 by Paul_Richard]

reply to post by Paul_Richard



As I have said before I will not use any footage to back up my facts, because it is not in my, or other performers best interests to do so. The link which you provided on D.C.s rig may have validating points, some facts stated are not correct but I will leave that to others to postulate on. There are some major innacuracies there, but only a technician would probably see them. The buisness of magnetism, which was bought in as a possibility and has been zoomed in on is a red herring, there are stage Levitations which use magnetism and they are relativly low priced, about £5.000.000 GBP, but they have very strict limitations. Without giving too much away they rely on large horizontal equipment to work, not two human feet, the lift is only about four feet in height. I know you may be sceptical of my credentials at times, when even governments will lie to us, who would expect you to believe me with little concrete proof. I accept this and in no way disrespect you for it, all I ask is that you allow the possibility that I may, after all be what I claim. D.C. is planning a huge T.V. show which will include an outdoor Levitation which will blow the socks off of C.A. However as I have said in a past post, even though he has a wonderful crew and the best inventors behind him, it will probably never happen. Due to the reasons which I have mentioned before, it is a sad and sorry heritage which he is not wholly innocent of the consequences of his past actions. It is no good to anyone for him to take the next step forward, when he actually want`s to step back from it all. When you climb that high, sometimes self destruction, is the only way out!
He could`nt stop the inventor from registering a patent on his big stage Levitation, hence the patent drawings which were on your post, that is one reason which people like myself will not show video`s of our work, they are meant to be kept to the craft and not be made generally available to the public. Apart from potential lawsuits, we then loose our credibility and future earnings would suffer, we can`t and won`t do that.