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criss angel discussion...

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posted on Feb, 17 2008 @ 11:14 AM
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Hi Eyewitness86,

It's funny that occasionally we get the idea thrown at us that we think Criss Angel is some sort of messianic figure or magical being because he has a Gift of the Spirit.

Truth is, there are no magical beings and someone can have a Gift without being on a spiritual path.

Must attend to other matters today but will check back at a later point.



EDIT:


Originally posted by pavil
CA basically rode on David Blaines coat tails then one upped him. Someone will do that to CA as well.

Something we would all like to see


[edit on 17-2-2008 by Paul_Richard]




posted on Feb, 17 2008 @ 11:18 AM
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reply to post by jfj123
 



Before I push the ignore button on you for obviously silly statements, I want to give you a chance to retract one crazy thing you said among many: You actually said that magicians ' all the time ' manage to get people to lie for them and remain silent forever!! I want to make sure that I am not misquoting you. you seem to think that witnesses to an event will for some reason lie and deny the truth of what happened, and never tell.

OK, I am SURE that you can give us some rational explanation as to why you believe that way. Please give some examples. WHY on earth would the witnesses at the golf course levitation lie to help Criss career, a total stranger, and remain silent forever? WHY? You amaze me. you really are bold and brash but with zero substance. If you think that the odds of Violets imaginings beimng valid are ' very high ' then you obviously have no more ability than she does to discern material reality and gauge odds.

Unless you can give an INTELLIGENT answer that does not insult the average reader's intelligence as to WHY your stements are tyrue, then do not be suprised when I do not answer you any more, I will not be able to read your posts. I have better things to do than argue with someone who cannot even grasp odds and coomon sense.

What magicians have in the past caused all of his witnesses to lie for him and remain silent forever? give us examples or admit your statement was ridiculous.



posted on Feb, 17 2008 @ 11:24 AM
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Originally posted by Paul_Richard
Grasping at straws again I see.

You don't get an international television show and more airtime than any magician in history (which he brags about) UNLESS you have something to offer that is above and beyond traditional nightclub acts



Care to explain Brittney Spears wealth then? She is not the most talented singer/dancer/songwriter in the world yet her monthly income last year was still over $700,000 a month even without a new ablum or tour out for most of that year. Talent quite honestly, has almost nothing to do with it.

In today's society you do not have to be the most talented to be the most successful, you just have to be the most driven with a solid team of people behind you.



If true - as you have no supportive links to back ANY of that up - it would be interesting to see how some upscale magic tricks cost.


Time for you to research that yourself. I stand by my numbers, you prove them wrong.




Criss Angel would never have gotten successful in the first place and lifted out of middle-class economic status; and gotten his own television series; and have move airtime than any magician in history, had he not been much better than any veteran illusionist - like David Copperfield.

Again see my Brittney Spears example.



Pavil...care to provide some references on the cost of custom-made levitation equipment?

That might be fun.


Perhaps Qwenn is more up to the task.


Again, you will have to research that yourself. Perhaps someone else will help you.



posted on Feb, 17 2008 @ 11:35 AM
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reply to post by pavil
 



I am not interested in any events but the high levitations. If you have some film to show us from those events that can convince us that the film was altered to DECEIVE, then present it. Chicken car? What does some allegedly edited video of another event have to do with anything?

You always base everything you assert based upon assumptions. You assume that the chicken car video has been altered to deceive, with no real proof, just your opinion about certain parts; then you extrapolate that into this ( il ) logic: If I can find one film that seems to be edited and weird, then that means that all of ther other videos MUST also be altered to deceive. That is NOT logic. That is an assumption.

Pavil will you go on record and tell us why YOU think that no one has been able to top Criss for so many years? Is it because it takes MORE than simple staging and deceptive editing? If all it takes is more sophisticated fraud, then surely within the last number of years ONE person would have figured out how to do it, right? What are the odds that Criss and Criss alone, year after year, remains the ONLY person that can do the high levitations and blow all others away?

Do we wait a decade for another Blaine or Takayam to appear, or will Blaine and Angel swap the glory and money back and forth forever? If you believe that scenario, then answre this; Why is it that the same three men are the ONLY ones on eareth to do what they do? If great money can be made by fraud and deception, there are plenty of candidates ready and willing to cash in..if you believe that no one else would like a slice of a very tasty pie, please tell us why that would be so.

Pavil you have to add layer after layer of assumption and speculation on top of one another until infinity to come up with some logical way to get around the main facts: Criss can levitate without props, and he is the only person currently that can do it to the degree that he does. No proof that convinces the opposite view has been shown. Ideas, yes. Suppositions, yes. Imaginings, yes. Allegations, yes. Evidence: NONE.



posted on Feb, 17 2008 @ 11:36 AM
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Originally posted by eyewitness86
reply to post by jfj123
 



I did not read past your first few lines because you stated the case INCORRECTLY right from the start. We do NOT believe that Criss is a ' magical being'. How do you know what we believe is the cause of his ability? How dare you assume....wel, on second thought, thats all a denier really does.

Then please tell me what you believe and prove it.


Also, you said something to the effect of ' no one has been able to figure out how he does it '...and THAT is a telling statement. of course they cannot figure it out; they are looking for props!!

That was one POSSIBILITY. Read the rest of the POSSIBILITIES.


Doesn't it strike you as just a BIT odd that no one can duplicate him?

Assuming someone would want to be a copycat, someone on your side has posted that david blain and one other magician has done it. But remember, somebody has to be the first. Houdini was the first to do a lot of tricks but in later years, they have been demystified so to speak.


The deniers have shown NO evidence that proves that props were used in the high levitations..none.

I already have posted a video showing the use a of a video editor-a prop.



posted on Feb, 17 2008 @ 11:45 AM
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reply to post by jfj123
 



You are hopeless. One last time: You have NOT posted a video that shows a prop in the high levitations. Post it right here and now and show at what time the prop is seen. if not, then you are being silly again. if I do not se a video from you with a prop showing on a high levitation then do nor bother to respind to me anymore: Casting pearls before swine wastes the time I could spend showing an open minded person the correct way to study evidence and make rational decisions.Stubborn and continued foolishness may be your forte', but it is not something I care to continue with.



posted on Feb, 17 2008 @ 11:53 AM
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reply to post by eyewitness86
 


Sure Eyewitness, I try to answer all questions directed at me, hint, hint.

Think back into the history of magic, there are only a handful or two of top, world class magicians at the same time. One could ask why someone hasn't knocked Lance Burton or Siegfied and Roy out of their posh gigs in Vegas as well. The truth is that you need a combination of Talent, Drive, money and a support team around you to be successful big time in magic.

Without any of those above 4 you will not make the big time. Sooner or later someone will come around with the same 4 characteristics and either make room for themselves or knock someone else off the top perches. The pinnacle for a magician these days is to either land a gig in Vegas or Branson or get TV specials or a Show. CA has done a marvelous job of marketing his talent and show, of that I have no question. When you headline a Vegas show you are making HUGE amounts of money. just take a look at any of the big names in the biz and take a look at their humble abodes.

Cyril will be he next magician to break into the big time of TV/Vegas magic if he chooses to. He has all the skills and talent and can even do the comedy act as well. He will be a perfect fit for American TV. He might be satisfied with his Japanese following to do that though.

As for why no one has duplicated CA's high levitations:

1st of all each of the two main ways he does the levitations involve a fairly decent amount of $$$ which eliminates about 99% of the magicians out there.
2nd It also requires a TV show which limits it to about 7 magicians I know of. Those 7 have already hit the big time and have no need to copy someone else's signature illusion. There is no reason for them to.

Someone one will eventually take the throne of "most popular magician in the world' from Criss Angel. My money would be on Cyril.

IF Criss Angel could do the building to building High Levitation Live in front of an audience of 10,000 people with the cameras being from a news pool filming Live as well, then I would believe he can actually levitate. Till then, logic dictates that since he has to control the event by limiting people and film crews, that the event most probably is faked.





[edit on 17-2-2008 by pavil]



posted on Feb, 17 2008 @ 11:53 AM
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reply to post by pavil
 



Bad example. Spears is a media creation. Criss created the media attention that made him famous by being able to do things that no one else can. Brittany was taken by a team of publicists and pro's who know how to make a semi-talent seem to be really exceptional by packaging and promotion and appealing to a very distinct group of people; those that would see her as the next queen bee: namely young teenage girls and some boys, as well as those with no sense of taste.

Criss on the other hand came up the hard way: proving his eceptional TALENT before the fame came. Fame came immediately for Brittany due to the array of people that were promoting her. Criss had to work and develop his abilities and prove that he and he ALONE could blow peopls minds in ways that had never been seen before. We have all seen girl singers and dancers and VH1 clones come and go.

But Criss justs keeps haning on, always managing to stay on top of the game, with no serious competitors...and the reason for this is not because he inspires total and permanent loyalty from strangers..and it is NOT because he merely has people deceptively alter film..and it is NOT because no one else wants the fame and money that he gets...it is because:

He can levitate without props. The sooner you get this thru your heads, the sooner you will stop a pitiful and fruitless search for what does not exist. There are no props to find.



posted on Feb, 17 2008 @ 12:09 PM
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Originally posted by eyewitness86
reply to post by jfj123
 



Before I push the ignore button on you for obviously silly statements, I want to give you a chance to retract one crazy thing you said among many: You actually said that magicians ' all the time ' manage to get people to lie for them and remain silent forever!! I want to make sure that I am not misquoting you. you seem to think that witnesses to an event will for some reason lie and deny the truth of what happened, and never tell.

I'm saying that magicians do have conspirators so to speak whether it be the magicians assistant, work crews who help set up the tricks, managers, etc.. It's obvious to any sane person that some of these huge tricks can't be setup by one person.


OK, I am SURE that you can give us some rational explanation as to why you believe that way. Please give some examples. WHY on earth would the witnesses at the golf course levitation lie to help Criss career, a total stranger, and remain silent forever? WHY? You amaze me. you really are bold and brash but with zero substance. If you think that the odds of Violets imaginings beimng valid are ' very high ' then you obviously have no more ability than she does to discern material reality and gauge odds.

I've already posted videos showing video editing and criss even had helpers on the roof that would also have been in on the trick.

Why don't you post evidence to support any of your statements?


Unless you can give an INTELLIGENT answer that does not insult the average reader's intelligence as to WHY your stements are tyrue, then do not be suprised when I do not answer you any more, I will not be able to read your posts. I have better things to do than argue with someone who cannot even grasp odds and coomon sense.

I honestly don't care if you put me on ignore or not. It just shows that you have no way of supporting your statements so your only option is to make the whole thing go away.


What magicians have in the past caused all of his witnesses to lie for him and remain silent forever? give us examples or admit your statement was ridiculous.


I never said this. Read above for details.



posted on Feb, 17 2008 @ 12:14 PM
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reply to post by pavil
 



You really didn't answer the question, but instead referred to your observation that there are usually only a few major magic acts that are popular enough to make real moeny and attract real attention at any given point in history. Here is the rub with that:

Lance Burton and Sigfried and Roy ( you know their act closed after Roy's tiger attack ) and ALL the other stage performers are in a totally different category than Criss and David and Cyril. Even the very TOP stage magicians and illusionsts can never cross the line and do what Criss does. For another stage magician to displace a Lance Burton, he would have to have MORE of the four elements that you decribe than Burton does...correct? That would really be the only difference if it is all illusions, correct?

But with Criss, it does not matter HOW much of the four elements you apply, NO ONE can ascend his throne because no one else can duplicate his feats or surpass them, even by throwing as much money and as much technology and promotion and support as possible into the effeort. WHY? WHY can no other performer simply use those elements to a degree just a tad more than Criss does and take him down? because they simply cannot levitate, thats why.

To duplicate the golf copurse levitation, just look at what would be required : ( By the way, as ridiculous as it sounds, this is nothing more than a litany of deniers beliefs!!):

Hire the golf course for the day and have all employees swear to lie for Criss and stay silent forever.

Bus in hired actors ( does the Guild know about this? ) and have them also swear to stay silent forever, or accept pay for same, for acting suprised to see the events and for ignoring the props that allegedly were there.

Bring a huge crane in the golf course with wires on it so Criss can act like he is levitating.

Later, take all the film and deceptively use computer skills to erase the props and wires and crane from the video so people will think that they were nmot there to begin with .

Bus the paid and voluteer liars ( witnesses ) back to wherever they came from with a dire warning to always remain silent; an unnecessary advisory since all of them always DO remain silent forever.

If you can believe all of the above rather tha believe that a man can levitate, then you really DO have no ability to calculate odds in a rational manner, and are thus hoplessly unable to grasp the truth. There is just no other way to look at it.

Rely forever on the paid witnesses and employees and crane operator and everyone else to remain silent forever so that the scam can continue for Criss and make him lot's of money.



posted on Feb, 17 2008 @ 12:15 PM
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reply to post by eyewitness86
 



No, my analogy is very appropriate. Both CA and Ms. Spears decided early on what they wanted to do and focused almost solely on it. They are both very driven people. Both came from fairly average homes. Both have a team of people around them that make them better than they would be on their own.

CA appeals to a small demographic as well but still makes millions off of it.
There are more similaraties between the two than you seem to want to acknowledge.



posted on Feb, 17 2008 @ 12:16 PM
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Originally posted by eyewitness86
reply to post by jfj123
 



You are hopeless. One last time: You have NOT posted a video that shows a prop in the high levitations. Post it right here and now and show at what time the prop is seen.

You're looking for a wire. I'm showing you a video which shows how cris angel uses prerecorded, edited video to create the illusion of the building to building levitation. The wires have been edited out so the only prop you can see the the effects of the video editing. I've already explained this.

Here's a thought. Can you show me any props for any of david copperfields tricks or doug hennings tircks, etc. ?? No of course you can't but that is no reason to believe that they are all magical. Either that argument works for everyone or noone.



posted on Feb, 17 2008 @ 12:20 PM
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reply to post by eyewitness86
 


Yes you have the Golf illusion pretty much down. Missing some parts, but overall a very good explanation. As I have stated before, such high cranes make it out onto golf courses far more often than you realize.

Of course I am aware of S&R's show. The point was no one was/has been able to dethrone those kind of people and they make MILLIONS of dollars a year.

That you don't agree with my point of view does not invalidate it. Sorry.



posted on Feb, 17 2008 @ 12:29 PM
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Not that this will sway the believers out there but I thought this was a good find:

www.broadcastingcable.com...
BTW, Banachek is one of the main parts of CA's Mindfreak team. Why would they need to figure out that "stunt" for almost an entire season if CA can really levitate?


Banachek: Right, well, I am the magic producer so I am involved with almost every aspect of the magic all the way through. From the inception in the beginning to the execution. We actually had to sit in a room for over two weeks and come up with over 350 tricks for this season, some of it is extra stuff that we know won’t be seen, some of that footage makes it out later, because it is still some pretty cool stuff it just didn’t fit into the episodes. What we are doing this Tuesday is that Criss, is going to be floating about 500 feet above Las Vegas Boulevard, but not just over Las Vegas Boulevard, but atop the light on the Luxor, in the light. That was an incredible stunt, in fact it took us almost the entire season to figure out exactly how to do that… we had to deal with 40-60 mile per hour winds, because the winds all get funneled up and they all meet up in that area over there. I mean it is one of the two structures you can see from space… And it is one more stunt that when you watch it, he is up there all by himself, it is one of those things that you can’t have someone else be there, he had to do it by himself.



posted on Feb, 17 2008 @ 12:47 PM
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reply to post by pavil
 


Fantastic find !!! Although they will find some illogical way to twist it.



posted on Feb, 17 2008 @ 01:07 PM
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reply to post by pavil
 



Just a thought and observation about how Chi-Levitation makes the body so light that it simply floats, but how can a body so light, be able to stay in one place with a 40 to 60 miles an hour wind blowing. A soap bubble gets blown in the wind but a weightless body simply stays put. Call me a nit picker, but DOH! Chi- Power finally bites the dust and case closed!

I have heard the rumour that before Criss Angel levitates, he takes a huge dump, which hardly supprises me as he is so full of it he would be almost weightless afterwards!

Time for a Chi- break!


[edit on 17-2-2008 by Qwenn]



posted on Feb, 17 2008 @ 01:13 PM
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Originally posted by Qwenn
reply to post by pavil
 



Just a thought and observation about how Chi-Levitation makes the body so light that it simply floats, but how can a body so light, be able to stay in one place with a 40 to 60 miles an hour wind blowing. A soap bubble gets blown in the wind but a weightless body simply stays put. Call me a nit picker, but DOH! Chi- Power finally bites the dust and case closed!


Here's a great way to measure the "Chi-Levitation makes the body so light that it simply floats" effect. Put eyewitness86 on a weight scale and ask him to use his chi and watch the scale pounds drop. Surely such an expert could do something as simple as this?



posted on Feb, 17 2008 @ 01:15 PM
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reply to post by Paul_Richard
 


Since I am in a generous mood here are some links for you to peruse. You will find out things if you look hard enough. Not that I expect you to do enough research, you will probably just give up saying "where's the props" after looking at a site or two.


www.magicauction.com...



posted on Feb, 17 2008 @ 01:33 PM
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props ? levitation for sale - no chi tk , just props for sale



posted on Feb, 17 2008 @ 01:33 PM
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reply to post by pavil
 


Well this link will blow a few Magicians off of their podiums, for those with the eyes to see, and the mind to reason that a spade is not always called a spade, keep digging CHI`s for offering this link to other forum users, it has always served me well!



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