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criss angel discussion...

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posted on Feb, 16 2008 @ 07:49 PM
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Originally posted by jfj123
Anything that can affect the physical world, can be measured.

Did you see the video of John Chang?

Look at it first and then get back to us.


Originally posted by jfj123
Assuming instruments are used properly and they are indeed the correct instruments, if nothing is registered, no Chi.

Chi cannot be measured with physical instruments because it does not stem from the physical spectrum of energy.

Again, see the referenced documentary for evidence supportive of the above point



Originally posted by Paul_Richard
Humorously, there is no high-tech equipment for teleportation.


Originally posted by jfj123
Actually there is! It's called quantum teleportation. Although currently in it's infancy, it exists nonetheless.

Go to the article on the teleportation thread I cited. It is just wishful thinking and speculation.

Teleportation through physical means IS NOT in its infancy stage.


To be in an infancy stage, one would AT LEAST be able to teleport something small, even a molecule. They cannot even do that. All they can do is approximate the duplication of a subatomic particle.


Not even close.



Originally posted by jfj123
Your thread is obviously outdated.

You are truly a legend in your own mind.

The article is dated February 15, 2008 and I did not start the thread on teleportation.

Keep this up and I will be delighted to add you to my ignore list, as I care not to debate those too deep in prejudice and ignorance to warrant my efforts in illumination. Especially since there are others here more progressive and ready to learn


You know what?

I think I will just do that now.

You have certainly earned it.

Welcome to my ignore list.






posted on Feb, 16 2008 @ 09:43 PM
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Originally posted by Paul_Richard

Originally posted by pavil
Care to tell me what seasons he did the building to building, Luxor float and top of Luxor levitations?

The seasons are irrelevant.

He did all of them on the MindFreak show that initially made him rich. Then came the Vegas gigs.



Ha!

I expected a little better out of you Paul.... Do you have any idea of A & E would pay for it's highest rated show and it's top star??? It is very relevant. With each season, CA's tricks got progressively more complex, which dovetails nicely with his increase in earnings. Just another coincidence to you I bet, even though you claim that to be one of the reasons for DC's tricks.

How much do you thing the Luxor pays Criss? You are aware that he is compensated by them and has agreements with them right?

How typical of you and Mr. Eyewitness to bring up points then dismiss them as irrelevant as you are proved wrong. I sense a pattern here.



posted on Feb, 16 2008 @ 09:55 PM
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Originally posted by Paul_Richard
Hi Eyewitness86 & Enlightened Co-Patriots,
Criss Angel often has an abundance of witnesses on the street, park, golf course, hotel pool, etc., that serve to validate or confirm that what the camera sees the spectators do also. These are not people who pay to see him but who happen to be in the area, as with the crowds outside the Luxor Hotel on the sidewalk.


Been down that road already, count how many people at those events, have you spoken with or talked with any of them? Can you prove that they are just "innocent bystanders, probably like that girl that got levitated at the Fremont Experience right? You do remember that fiasco that you both declared irrelavant?



Secondly, if Criss Angel could perform high levitations and teleportations before he got rich from doing them, it is to his advantage to keep using that method, as high-tech levitation equipment is expensive and because it is basically impossible to detect the cause of the feat with physical instruments.


Huh? Prove to me Criss Angel did one high levitation before any of his TV performances. You are getting very speculative here.

C'mon Paul, prove it. Or are you going to just ignore me as well?



posted on Feb, 16 2008 @ 10:47 PM
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reply to post by eyewitness86
 



Originally posted by eyewitness86
Oh right..I remember now..you said that only Criss is low enough to deceive the public by tricking video's and paying off witnesses to lie...that all of his natural competitors do not have the means or backing to do the same thing, right? And also you beieve that Criss alone has any interest in doing high levitations in public and gaining the fame and fortune, that all the others are too honest and principled to stoop to his level..is that correct? Does that sum up the essence of your belief


First of all, I have never said paid witnesses. I always try to say "paid or not" when answering you. YOU are the one who keeps on about this paid witness theory. I've stated earlier on in the thread that I don't believe people need to be paid to keep secrets. Of course his employees are paid and that's different.

I've said that some spectators lie. I've said CA lies and CA has admitted he lies.

Secondly, who cares about your contention that nobody else can levitate in public places? It has nothing to do with proving Criss Angel's levitations aren't illlusions.

He's said what he does are illusions, so he must be dillusional too, whilst your tossing that remark about, which is better aimed at yourself.

He reveals his low levitation, because it's available anyways. Being performed by other magicians, him showing how it's done discredits them, and makes him shine because he has access to bigger, better levi's. Look at the Blaine parody video. Criss mentions Blaine lifted off the ground a measly 2 inches and everyone talked about it. He kept making fun of his low levitation in this clip. Perhaps doing a low levitation reveal video was his way of taking a shot at Blaine and the others? Who knows and who really cares, it's just more money from the DVD sales.

Some magicians are known to complain that CA is ruining it for them by showing tricks. Some also complain it isn't fair he gets to do magic in a TV format, which allows him the opportunity to edit film, do re-takes, have it flow in one piece, etc. This they argue makes the audience expect this level of performance Live, and they can't deliver. I think this should tell you that you're right, they'd love the chance to have a TV show like CA. The thing is, what Networks are calling them for hire?


First, it is totally UNPROVEN that Criss does ANY of the things that you MUST presuppose in order to even extrapolate the allegatiop nthat others would be affected by it!! Unreal.

Come again?



posted on Feb, 17 2008 @ 06:22 AM
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I have spent a while talking to a couple of very interesting people who are experts in their field, which is martial arts, T`ai- Chi Chuan, mysticism. According to them the whole area of Chi Levitation is a misconception, which is based on the principle of Lightening the body weight using the energy of Chi, in order to be able to jump higher, whilst fighting or training. According to them, they have never known people who are connected with this field ever claim to be able to fly, apart from the bouncing monks, who bounce and say this is flying. According to them it all goes back to the days of Yang-Lu-Chan who in the 1800s Claimed that it was possible to create a THIN layer of air between your feet and the ground so that you could float on it, this is what in the trade they call the " Ultimate Chi-Legends" which are stories passed down from generation to generation.

So if even the most enlightened of humans only claimed a THIN layer of air, are we expected to believe Criss floating.

So I know that some people say that Experts are just people claiming to know the truth, but that is just what others are doing on here, yet they expect to be trusted and believed.

[edit on 17-2-2008 by Qwenn]



posted on Feb, 17 2008 @ 06:44 AM
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Originally posted by Paul_Richard

Originally posted by jfj123
Anything that can affect the physical world, can be measured.

Did you see the video of John Chang?

Look at it first and then get back to us.

I'd be more then happy to, could you post the link? Thanks.


Originally posted by Paul_Richard
Humorously, there is no high-tech equipment for teleportation.


Originally posted by jfj123
Actually there is! It's called quantum teleportation. Although currently in it's infancy, it exists nonetheless.

Go to the article on the teleportation thread I cited. It is just wishful thinking and speculation.

Teleportation through physical means IS NOT in its infancy stage.

Of course it is. Quantum teleportation has been successful with photons.


To be in an infancy stage, one would AT LEAST be able to teleport something small, even a molecule. They cannot even do that. All they can do is approximate the duplication of a subatomic particle.


Not even close.

Actually, any successful research would allow it to e in it's beginning or infancy stages and once again, photons have been successfully teleported.


Originally posted by jfj123
Your thread is obviously outdated.

You are truly a legend in your own mind.
This is a typical response from those like yourself who think they are better then everyone else because of what they believe. You cannot prove your statements so you result to personal insults and attacks. Thats just sad.


The article is dated February 15, 2008 and I did not start the thread on teleportation.

Keep this up and I will be delighted to add you to my ignore list, as I care not to debate those too deep in prejudice and ignorance to warrant my efforts in illumination. Especially since there are others here more progressive and ready to learn

Again more insults instead of posting evidence

Instead of insulting people who disagree with you, why not simply post evidence that supports your position?


You know what?

I think I will just do that now.

You have certainly earned it.

Welcome to my ignore list.



I feel like one of the privileged people who has evidence to disprove what you are saying and since you cannot bare to see that evidence, you remove it from site. Welcome to the dark ages my friend where wisdom and logic are buried and superstition and ignorance reigns.

[edit on 17-2-2008 by jfj123]



posted on Feb, 17 2008 @ 07:08 AM
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reply to post by violet
 



OK Violet, now I get it. If the witnesses are not paid off liars, they are liars just for fun!! Thats what you are saying. All the people lie for Criss whether paid or not. You really believe that?

Then, you say that public close up events are no different than any others..stage events, etc. Correct? Being in public and close up doesn't alter thge dynamic at all, right? You believe that?

And THEN, you say that ' other magicians..are complaining "..PLEASE link us to these well known magicians and Vegas performers that are dissing Criss and griping about his alteration of video and his fraudulent activities. Please. If you say they are griping I believe you. You must have some link or evidence or you would not have just said that, right? I mean, if you cannot link to or quote some of those sources you just claimed exist, why..you would then be seen as even more vaccuous and empty than previously, corect?

So, the witnesses LIE whether paid or not...being off a stage and in public makes no difference,, and 'OTHER ' rated performers are complaining about Criss and his altered video's, etc....Is THIS what you are saying? You DID say that, just above..but I want to crystal clear what you mean so that I cannot be accused of misstating your words.

Fine, I am waiting for you to provide a link or quote that proves your allegation about the complaining..I understand that you cannot provide any evidence of the lying non-paid witnesses or that being in public is the same as a stage act....that cannot be done because the former is ridiculous and the latter unthinkable.

OK Violet, we are waiting.



posted on Feb, 17 2008 @ 07:46 AM
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reply to post by eyewitness86
 


I'm just curious as to why you believe it is ok to rip apart violet but you have never provided evidence to support your claims? Maybe I missed that evidence? That's a possibility. Could you repost it? I must have missed that evidence as you obviously wouldn't require others to prove their cases but not prove your own right? That would make you a hypocrite and of course you aren't right?



posted on Feb, 17 2008 @ 09:19 AM
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Originally posted by pavil
Do you have any idea of A & E would pay for it's highest rated show and it's top star??? It is very relevant. With each season, CA's tricks got progressively more complex, which dovetails nicely with his increase in earnings. Just another coincidence to you I bet, even though you claim that to be one of the reasons for DC's tricks.

I agree, with each season his feats in some ways became more complex. Or at least appeared to be.

Are you insinuating that after a first season of mediocre, non-Chi feats he was paid enough to afford high-tech levitation equipment?



I don't think so but that is a clever guess.

Regardless, here's the clincher:

Are you ready?


If Criss Angel were not far better than David Copperfield then he would not have gotten the MindFreak series off the ground in the first place


Which then led to his Luxor gig and even more money.



posted on Feb, 17 2008 @ 09:26 AM
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reply to post by Qwenn
 

It is good that you consulted with those who have some experience with Chi.

Outside of those in here of course.


No matter how levitation is performed telekinetically, all of your "Chi experts" agree that it is still accomplished with Chi.

Chi is what causes the effect of air displacement. Chi is what causes the body to become lighter.

It is all due to Chi.

More Chi and focus means a greater ability in using it effectively.

I therefore rest my case as I agree with the appraisal of your "Chi experts."

But I hardly think that is the response you wanted or expected.





posted on Feb, 17 2008 @ 09:28 AM
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reply to post by jfj123
 



I am NOT ripping apart anyone; if it looks like that it is because she is backed into a corner of logic from which there is no escape but admission of truth.

All I am doing is clarifying what she believes, thats all. If what she believes is so ridiculous and so far fetched that no rational person could believe it, well, thats the way the ball bounces in debate, isn't it? One side exposes the weakness of the other''s case and asks readers to decide which version is more likely and possible. Thats all.

If Violet believe the things she says she does, then that is a testament to her ability to process info in an intelligent manner and come to the likley conclusion. Do YOU believe that all of the sitnesses that you see on Criss high levitations are either paid liars or liars who lie just because they want to support Criss in his ' deceptions '? Hmm? Is that likley? is it possible? No. And we all know it. It makes no sense to assume that the reason that Criss witnesses never allege a payoff or a request to remain silent is because they are liars all, or because they just want Criss to get away with it, for some unknown reason.

Is it likley that Criss is never duplicated and never copied in his high levitations because no one else wants fame and money? Is that human nature and the nature of performers in Vegas? No, Impossible. To imagine that all the others are too moral and too highly principled to want riches and fame is just ridiculous..silly. Who in their right mind could believe that?

Each and every excuse that the deniers use to try and come up with a way Criss can do all these things is torn to shreds under the scrutiny of even a casual observer. It makes no sense to suppose all these traits that humans do not exhibit, and the conspiracies of silence that would have to be kept covered up..and on and on. They simply do not have anything of substance to refute the evidence.

I HAVE presented evidence, over and over, and not ONE person has refuted that evidence with ANY proof whatsoever. NO PROOF that video's are altered to deceive ( they call regular editing ' alteration, which is silly)..NO PROOF that ANY witness has lied for Criss or been paid off by CRiss ( that is only in the imaginations of deniers..no prof of this has ever been shown )..and the deniers go downhill from there , even further along the road of assumption and imagination.

Violet is greaping at desperate measures to still believe what she does: How LIKLELY is it that she is right? What are the odds that what she says could be the real answer? NONE. Zero. Nada. She has to imagine that Criss has some kind of special ability to get people to lie for him and remain loyal and silent forever..is THAT sensible?

Is THAT what you would call the proof that we are asking for? Unreal. Violet will imagine ANY scenario, no matter HOW earth shattering the odds are, to keep belieivng in her supposition...the real question is WHY does she cling to illogical presumptions and totally unproven hypotheticals? It has to do with HER ability to discern the truth, or lack thereof, and not anything to do with Criss and the truth. She has a NEED to believe that Criss, nor anyone else, can levitate.

She cannot come up with ONE witness who alleges a payoff, or admits to lying for Criss for NO compensation. When I read what Violet wrote, that she really believes that the witnesses are lying, and that they are lying even if not paid to do so, she wandered into the land of Alice and the rabbit hole, a fantasy world where any imagined scenario is just as valid as a proven fact. Only in that land can one believe in people that lie for fun and stay silent forever...or where props are invisible and Las Vegas performers have lost their competitive nature and are content to remain poor and unknown while Criss stays on top forever.

You see how ludicrous it gets? You have to strip the veneer away from the deniers real core beliefs and expose them openly and in plain language so all can see exactly where they are coming from. Once that is done, it is easy to show the average reader how totally empty their basket of proof really is. You would think that ONE witness would spill the beans...especially if they were not paid and had lied' just for fun ' for Criss..but no, never do we hear from them either.

Now, we are waiting for Violet to offer proof of her latest claim: That many Vegas performers are mad at Criss for using underhanded video deceptions and fraud to make his money...that was a bold statement and I am SURE that Violet will soon post some links that have quotes from these performers griping about Criss terrible dishonesty. After all, if she cannot, that would place THAT claim in the same circular file as all the rest of her imagined ' proof ' that we keep hearing about bet never manage to see!

Here is the bottom line: What is more likley? That CRiss can levitate for brief periods without props, or that vast conspiracies of silence, paid or voluntary, along with decective and misleading video trickery accounting for Criss' fame? If you add up the outrageous odds involved with EACH of the deniers bnasic allegations, it becomes so ridiculously far out that not even a die hard disbeliever in the ability of man to levitate would dare accept such odds. It looks foolish to do so.

I have offered this before, and will again: Want to shut me up, teach me a lesson , humiliate me and make me admit I was wrong and eat as much crow as you care to, before I voluntarily resign from ATS forever ? Here is all you have to do:

Show us proof, evidence, convincing enough to establish as fact, that Criss uses props in the high levitations and I will do so, on my word. All I ask is that it be real proof, not looking at some shadow and extrapolating some imagined whatever from it. ONE picture that shows the props used. ONE witness that alleges a payoff, or ONE witness that lied for Criss for free..ONE statement by an employee or former employee that tells us how Criss uses deceptive video alteration to change the event seen.

Criss said " I never use trick photography " , but the denier will just say that Criss is lying..like all the witnmesses who do so..right? Unreal. Just unreal that people would believe the most outlandish stories, totally unproven, before they will the plain and simple evidence right in front of them. That indicates a need for them to think that they know the truth about both seen and unseen realms..although we all know that with the kind of case they have presented so far, that can hardly be the case.

So, my friend, if my writing makes Violet look like she is being shredded, it is because her assumptions are so far out and incredible that it makes it a lot easier to believe in levitation!!

But really, we should not be suprised...look at all the people who acept the 9-11 fairy tale as true; Some people MUST avoid accepting truths that would shake the foundations of their belief systems: Some cannot handle that. Thats OK and understandable. But those people should NOT have the gaul to insist that we believe her version of things when NO evidence whatsoever exists that confirms her beliefs are valid. Simple.



posted on Feb, 17 2008 @ 10:24 AM
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reply to post by Paul_Richard
 
Why do you contend CA was poor before Mindfreak occurred? He had a multiple year run of an off Broadway show and had done a handful of TV specials, mainly for ABC Family Channel. A&E would have given him a good sized contract with a substantial advance to get the series rolling.

Remember CA moved his whole production team out to Vegas and set up shop at the Aladdin before landing the Luxor gig, that is not something someone poor does. Nor does somone not making money have an off Broadway show run for 5 years and 600 shows. The evidence is abundant that Criss was fairly wealthy before MindFreak and before he came to Vegas. But now that is probably irrelavant to you now isn't it?


Most high end up close magic tricks run 2,000 to 4,000 depending on the trick. Bigger illusions run upwards of $10,000 and more. Custom built big ticket tricks like you see in Vegas shows and *gasp* CA's Mindfreak can run $25,000 and up depending on the type of trick and the amount of work needed to fabricate it into reality.

Don't claim CA to be a "poor starving steet magician". He quite evidently was not.

Paul Richards, I suggest you research these details yourself if you think I am lying to you. You plainly have not researched the magical and economic aspects of this discussion. I would expect eyewitness not to research things, you I expect better of.



posted on Feb, 17 2008 @ 10:36 AM
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Originally posted by eyewitness86

I I HAVE presented evidence, over and over, and not ONE person has refuted that evidence with ANY proof whatsoever. NO PROOF that video's are altered to deceive ( they call regular editing ' alteration, which is silly)..NO PROOF that ANY witness has lied for Criss or been paid off by CRiss ( that is only in the imaginations of deniers..no prof of this has ever been shown )..and the deniers go downhill from there , even further along the road of assumption and imagination.


Huh?...?

What evidence have you presented besides CA's own video productions of his MindFreak shows?

You, mind friend, are the delusional one.

CA's Car chicken video is the most blatant example of editing/manipulation. We have shown you at least 2 handfuls more. I notice you stay away from commenting on it at all. What's the matter, are you chicken as well? Please explain away the problems in that video.



posted on Feb, 17 2008 @ 10:39 AM
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reply to post by pavil
 


Poor Pavil: Still stuck on what word was used..unreal. Why not answer the question at the bottom of PR's posts ? That would of course open you up to ridicule if it was no better than Violet's imaginings. So just ignore it and keep on worrying about whether or not PR was correct when he used the word ' poor ' in a previous post..THAT'S sticking to the subject at hand and offering real and valid rebuttals to our assertions..good job.

What difference does all that nonsense about ' poor ' have to do with whether or not Criss Angel can levitate without props? Saying that props exist and what they cost is one thing: Showing us proof that Criss used them or that they could have been used in the events in question is totally another, now isn't it? of course it is, and you know it. SO, do you have any evidence you would like to present that backs up any of your suppositions?

I thought not.



posted on Feb, 17 2008 @ 10:52 AM
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Originally posted by eyewitness86
reply to post by jfj123
 



I am NOT ripping apart anyone; if it looks like that it is because she is backed into a corner of logic from which there is no escape but admission of truth.

All I am doing is clarifying what she believes, thats all. If what she believes is so ridiculous and so far fetched that no rational person could believe it, well, thats the way the ball bounces in debate, isn't it? One side exposes the weakness of the other''s case and asks readers to decide which version is more likely and possible. Thats all.

Well there are 2 basic sides to this debate.
1 side believes criss is a magical being
the other side believes he's a good illusionist.
The illusionist side has provided evidence to support their opinions, your side has presented no evidence and have claimed you cannot as chi cannot be measured. Once again, if Chi can affect the physical world, that affect can be measured without exception, PERIOD.


Is it likley that Criss is never duplicated and never copied in his high levitations because no one else wants fame and money?

It has been mentioned by your side that 2 other people have done this so we know this statement is not true. There are many reasons why he's not duplicated, here are a few:
If he is the first, nobody may have been able to figure out his technique.
His technique may be VERY expensive.
His technique may involve video editing which is technically not an illusion so other magicians may find it a bit of a hack.

Let me ask you this-how many other people have made the statue of liberty disappear? none! Why not? Let's use your exact question here:
"no one else wants fame and money?"
David Copperfield made huge amounts of money and fame off that trick so why don't all magicians do it? Criss has never duplicated it so is Copperfield better then Criss?


Is that human nature and the nature of performers in Vegas? No, Impossible. To imagine that all the others are too moral and too highly principled to want riches and fame is just ridiculous..silly. Who in their right mind could believe that?

Read above to answer these questions.


Each and every excuse that the deniers use to try and come up with a way Criss can do all these things is torn to shreds under the scrutiny of even a casual observer.

This statement is simply incorrect and this happens only in your mind. No offense but your opinion doesn't change reality.


It makes no sense to suppose all these traits that humans do not exhibit, and the conspiracies of silence that would have to be kept covered up..and on and on. They simply do not have anything of substance to refute the evidence.

You can claim this of almost every decent magician so do all magicians have super chi powers?


I HAVE presented evidence, over and over, and not ONE person has refuted that evidence with ANY proof whatsoever.

Sorry I missed all of it. Would you mind reposting the evidence or show links so I can review it? Evidence would be something tangible that supports your assertions. For example, proving the existence of chi.


NO PROOF that video's are altered to deceive ( they call regular editing ' alteration, which is silly)..NO PROOF that ANY witness has lied for Criss or been paid off by CRiss ( that is only in the imaginations of deniers..no prof of this has ever been shown )..and the deniers go downhill from there , even further along the road of assumption and imagination.

I've posted several videos showing proof of his editing to show a levitation trick.


Violet is greaping at desperate measures to still believe what she does: How LIKLELY is it that she is right?

Very.


What are the odds that what she says could be the real answer?

Very high.


NONE. Zero. Nada. She has to imagine that Criss has some kind of special ability to get people to lie for him and remain loyal and silent forever..is THAT sensible?

Yes. Magicians do this all the time.


Is THAT what you would call the proof that we are asking for? Unreal.

Not proof. Evidence.


Violet will imagine ANY scenario, no matter HOW earth shattering the odds are, to keep belieivng in her supposition...the real question is WHY does she cling to illogical presumptions and totally unproven hypotheticals?

You are doing the EXACT same thing you are accusing her of. PROVE criss angel is a magical being.


It has to do with HER ability to discern the truth, or lack thereof, and not anything to do with Criss and the truth. She has a NEED to believe that Criss, nor anyone else, can levitate.

Of course nobody can levitate as there is something called gravity. If gravity is over ridden with another force, that force and/or change can be measured. So where's the measurements?


She cannot come up with ONE witness who alleges a payoff, or admits to lying for Criss for NO compensation.

Admittedly this is supposition however magicians have been doing this as a matter of practice for hundreds of years if not longer. Ever hear of a magicians assistant? Regarding the statue of liberty-do you think copperfield set that hole rotating stage, light system, etc. himself?


When I read what Violet wrote, that she really believes that the witnesses are lying, and that they are lying even if not paid to do so, she wandered into the land of Alice and the rabbit hole, a fantasy world where any imagined scenario is just as valid as a proven fact.

If she did wander down the fantasy hole, maybe she'll say hi when she see's you there



Only in that land can one believe in people that lie for fun and stay silent forever...

Ever hear of a politician?


or where props are invisible and Las Vegas performers have lost their competitive nature and are content to remain poor and unknown while Criss stays on top forever.

Horrific logic.


You see how ludicrous it gets? You have to strip the veneer away from the deniers real core beliefs and expose them openly and in plain language so all can see exactly where they are coming from. Once that is done, it is easy to show the average reader how totally empty their basket of proof really is. You would think that ONE witness would spill the beans...especially if they were not paid and had lied' just for fun ' for Criss..but no, never do we hear from them either.

So what do you say about those videos I posted showing how he does his building to building levitation?


Here is the bottom line: What is more likley? That CRiss can levitate for brief periods without props, or that vast conspiracies of silence, paid or voluntary, along with decective and misleading video trickery accounting for Criss' fame?

The latter.


I have offered this before, and will again: Want to shut me up, teach me a lesson , humiliate me and make me admit I was wrong and eat as much crow as you care to, before I voluntarily resign from ATS forever ? Here is all you have to do:

Show us proof, evidence, convincing enough to establish as fact, that Criss uses props in the high levitations and I will do so, on my word. All I ask is that it be real proof, not looking at some shadow and extrapolating some imagined whatever from it. ONE picture that shows the props used. ONE witness that alleges a payoff, or ONE witness that lied for Criss for free..ONE statement by an employee or former employee that tells us how Criss uses deceptive video alteration to change the event seen.

I already have showing you the video.


Criss said " I never use trick photography " , but the denier will just say that Criss is lying..like all the witnmesses who do so..right?

Cris also claims he is not a magical being so no matter what he is lying



So, my friend, if my writing makes Violet look like she is being shredded, it is because her assumptions are so far out and incredible that it makes it a lot easier to believe in levitation!!

Levitation without technology does not exist. If you think otherwise-PROVE IT!



posted on Feb, 17 2008 @ 11:01 AM
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reply to post by pavil
 


I am referring only to high levitations. No proof has ever been shown that gives anyone reason to believe that ALL of the video's shown on his TV events, whether filmed by his cameras or sent in by fans, has been altered to deceive. You SUPPOSE that the video cannot be valid because of the fact that Criss controls distribution.

Why not make that same assumption about ALL video you see? It also was distributed by some source that could have conceivably altered what is seen to deceive. how can you believe anything you see if all film is suspect without proof of having been altered?

Another SUPPOSITION that has NO basis in proven fact. Here is the question that you guys keep running from; If all it takes is deceptive video alterations, WHY is Criss the ONLY person on earth using it to make money? Please just answer that in plain and simple terms. Surely you cannot ask us to believe that no one else wants to cash in on gullible people shelling out big bucks for live shows, DVD's, merchandise from his catalog, etc etc. etc., then you are asking us to believe the impossible.

Why doesn't some young up and comer do Criss one better and stage an event that is in public, open for all to see and film, and then later just trick the video and remove the props..and make some big bucks? Why has not ONE person ever even attempted such a thing? How come CRISS is the only one that can get away with such effrontery and succeed?

After you have answered the questions I just posed, we can review them for sanity, likelihood and probability, given the EVIDENCE at hand.

Imagine the following : You get a ticket for drunk driving, and the officer has video of you weaving all over the road from his cop car cam, and you slurring your words and staggering around, obviously drunk. I can just hear you now:

" Your Honor, that video cannot be trusted..after all, the State has an interest in getting my money if I am found guilty, so no video they produce can be trusted. The film lab may have altered the film to make it look like I was drunk, so they could convict me and take my money."

Judge: " Unless you can prove to the Courts satisfaction that there is probable cause to believe that the State has in the past, or has in this instance, altered video to deceive , then the video evidence will be assumed to be a real and valid depiction of the events that occurred that day. you have had access to the video under discovery, and adequate opportunity to have it professionally examined to determine if there is any grounds to suspect it's authenticity. Since you have the burden of proof in making an accusation with any proof of past alterations, and since you presnt no expert witness that can attest to any alterations, your request is denied, and by a preponderance of the evidence you are GUILTY."

Alleging deceptive video manipulation is a desperate measure when there is not one shred of proof that the high levitations were anything but what they appear to be: Criss Angel levitating. And with NO props. And NO NEED to trick videos....and pay off witnesses...or any of the other imaginings of the typical denier. Sorry, you got to do better than this to convince.



posted on Feb, 17 2008 @ 11:05 AM
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reply to post by eyewitness86
 



Still staying away from the chicken video huh? That's mighty cowardly of you IMO.

Still waiting on all that evidence other than the MindFreak shows too..........


I have answered PR as far as I know. What precisely are you referring to? Yes CA does use props and video trickery and stooges in his MindFreak shows. Does he use them all the time, no. Does he use them? Yes.

PR's contention is that CA could not afford to purchase the necessary equipment/stunt to do the "high levitatons" prior to the MindFreak series and being at the Luxor. That is the impression I got from reading his post. Therefore, if CA could not afford them, there is no way he could have used them, according to his logic. I merely punched gaping holes in that argument by showing that CA did in fact have a substaintial amount of money prior to the taping of the MindFreak series. That you can't seem to grasp that, is not my problem.



posted on Feb, 17 2008 @ 11:06 AM
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Originally posted by pavil
Why do you contend CA was poor before Mindfreak occurred? He had a multiple year run of an off Broadway show and had done a handful of TV specials, mainly for ABC Family Channel. A&E would have given him a good sized contract with a substantial advance to get the series rolling.

Grasping at straws again I see.

You don't get an international television show and more airtime than any magician in history (which he brags about) UNLESS you have something to offer that is above and beyond traditional nightclub acts



Originally posted by pavil
Most high end up close magic tricks run 2,000 to 4,000 depending on the trick. Bigger illusions run upwards of $10,000 and more. Custom built big ticket tricks like you see in Vegas shows and *gasp* CA's Mindfreak can run $25,000 and up depending on the type of trick and the amount of work needed to fabricate it into reality.

If true - as you have no supportive links to back ANY of that up - it would be interesting to see how some upscale magic tricks cost.

To reiterate:

Criss Angel would never have gotten successful in the first place and lifted out of middle-class economic status; and gotten his own television series; and have move airtime than any magician in history, had he not been much better than any veteran illusionist - like David Copperfield.

That is, BEFORE he became rich enough to afford the upscale illusions
.

This reminds me of an article that I read years ago via an online British publication (no longer available or I would provide a link) about David Blaine, who also has a Gift of Prana, Chi, Chi-Telekinesis, whatever. In the article it was stated that Blaine got his Street Magic video done in the first place because he blew the socks off of some big time producer by levitating in his high-rise office. (Obviously beyond the Balducci illusion.)

The same idea applies to Criss Angel, only to a larger extent. Which is why you don't see a David Blaine MindFreak television series.


Pavil...care to provide some references on the cost of custom-made levitation equipment?

That might be fun.


Perhaps Qwenn is more up to the task.



[edit on 17-2-2008 by Paul_Richard]



posted on Feb, 17 2008 @ 11:09 AM
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reply to post by jfj123
 



I did not read past your first few lines because you stated the case INCORRECTLY right from the start. We do NOT believe that Criss is a ' magical being'. How do you know what we believe is the cause of his ability? How dare you assume....wel, on second thought, thats all a denier really does.

Also, you said something to the effect of ' no one has been able to figure out how he does it '...and THAT is a telling statement. of course they cannot figure it out; they are looking for props!! Doesn't it strike you as just a BIT odd that no one can duplicate him? Or is that just another one of ' those thing ' that keep confounding the deniers?

The deniers have shown NO evidence that proves that props were used in the high levitations..none. Post them right here if you can find them. Not suppositions or shadows and guesses, but EVIDENCE. ONE BIT. One tiny teenie bit that convinces. We have been waiting for over a hundred pages and so far nothing.


If you really want to convince, find some proof. Until then, at least do not have the temerity to insist that you know what the truth is. Prove that what we see is not what happened and we will relent. But just do not ask us to take your word for it; so far thats all the deniers have been able to offer.



posted on Feb, 17 2008 @ 11:10 AM
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reply to post by eyewitness86
 


Hey you are right, some up and comer did do that. CA basically rode on David Blaines coat tails then one upped him. Someone will do that to CA as well.



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