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criss angel discussion...

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posted on Feb, 8 2008 @ 05:59 PM
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Originally posted by deezee

Originally posted by MrdDstrbr
Hey, I see this as just the sort of thing those evil black ops guys would do. Instead of publicly disclosing the technology to benefit humanity, I can see them privately giving someone like CA a device, "Here, use this to screw with people's heads and create a spectacular mystery they'll never be able to solve! And make yourself rich and famous in the process."


How exactly would this achieve anything, since the 99% of people would never even start guessing in the direction of an anti-gravity device.


EXACTLY!!!




Besides, if it exists, i think the government would keep it VERY secret. Very, VERY secret.
And if they wanted it to slowly seep into the minds of humans, they wouldn't use an illusionist for it. Because an illusionist implies illusions.


Exactly - it is helping to condition people to think of anti-gravity AS AN ILLUSION - instead of a technological reality!

Think about it, you want to keep anti-gravity technology secret, what better way to do it than have a guy using a real AG device right on TV in front of the whole world - BUT frame it as a "magic trick" or "illusion", and then have him later say, "OMG, all you people who believed that was actually real, you're all frickin idiots!
".

Disinformation. Misdirection. Think about it....

(Just my own little pet conspiracy theory, try not to take it TOO seriously....
)





Originally posted by MrdDstrbr
Is the possibility of an advanced human being with maybe advanced or mutated DNA and enhanced abilities really so hard to believe? Seen X-Men lately?



Hmm...

The more you know about something, the more obvious it becomes, that it's not just that simple. Sci-fi uses pseudo science and techno babble, to confuse and give an appearance of scientific validity, to people, who don't understand those words.
[snippage]
Still, i'm open to accepting it is possible, but only if it can be verified, and explained in a way, that makes sense, as opposed to a bunch of meaningless pseudo scientific or even new age words.


No, there is nothing "new age" or "pseudo-scientific" or "techno babble" about it.

I am talking about the possibility that DNA more refined and advanced than ours, than what 99.999999999% of people currently have, could actually give people the ability to levitate and all these other psychic abilities, for real.

Which would explain why every few hundred years a "Prophet" comes along who reportedly can levitate, teleport, alter solid matter, heal people, defy Death, etc. The Prophets, which were around long, long before we had the technological ability to do all those things as Illusions....


There, I laid out the concept in as straightforward a manner as I possibly could, without using "new age" or "pseudo-scientific" words to confuse the weak-minded




posted on Feb, 8 2008 @ 06:25 PM
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Originally posted by InSpiteOf

Originally posted by MrdDstrbr
You don't meet the challenge - because you CAN'T! Which is what eyewitness has been saying all along


Please dont feed the troll, especially if you havent read through the thread. You've missed pages upon pages of our own research and thought processes. We have met a very large number of his challenges, only to have him say either our answers are crazy or that the event we analyzed was not important and not representative of Criss Angels abilities. After everything we have tried to do in this thread, why would we attempt to go one step further when it falls on deaf ears?


Look, your attempt to rationalize away the fact that the challenge hasn't been met, doesn't change the fact that it hasn't been met.

The fact is that the golf course and B2B still haven't been explained without resorting to saying that the witnesses are all paid actors - which is an UNPROVEN assumption!

HOW could the golf course and B2B be done as proper street magic, proper illusions - with real, UNPAID eyewitnesses? With the props and equipment being kept hidden from the witnesses somehow? Can you offer an even slightly plausible explanation?






Anyway, yes, you have a point, many of the levitations have a relatively small number of witnesses.


Doesnt that strike you as odd?


Yes, I have already said that it does strike me as odd. But that doesn't prove that the entire audience is a paid team of actors!






Although the Luxor Floatdown one could have had hundreds of witnesses - pretty much anyone not in their rooms could see it.


Count them. Not that many show up on camera. Interesting considering the Luxor is such a happening place...


Yes, not that many on camera. But that doesn't mean there weren't many more watching from hallways, windows etc. Did Team CA pay off everyone in the hotel? I doubt it....



posted on Feb, 8 2008 @ 06:34 PM
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Originally posted by InSpiteOf
Come on man.. The internet is as anonymous as you can get, and not one person comes forward to say they saw CA at the B2B levitation and there were no props?


Looks that way, for now - but there was that "1 true criss angel fan" who said that CA levitated him, what was it, 10 or 15 feet in the air?

But of course, people are going to say "well he's just making that up" etc - which is the problem with totally anonymous internet witnesses



posted on Feb, 8 2008 @ 08:11 PM
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Originally posted by MrdDstrbr
The fact is that the golf course and B2B still haven't been explained without resorting to saying that the witnesses are all paid actors - which is an UNPROVEN assumption!

How many times do i have to repeat this...

The sawing in half illusion had a larger number of audience, then the golf course and building to building combined.

Still, i can proove, that the entire audience had to be paid for this particular illusion.


So the possibility of a large paid "audience" is not an assumption, but a fact. Never mind the small audience in the golf course and hardly any audience at all in building to building.



posted on Feb, 8 2008 @ 08:33 PM
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Originally posted by MrdDstrbr
Really, you wouldn't feel the slightest bit weird going around to friends, family, coworkers, neighbors etc, and telling them "Man, CA can really levitate! No it's not an illusion, I was there and I saw him levitate for REAL, man! CA has psychic powers for real!!!" ?

You wouldn't be even the slightest bit afraid that people would think you're a nut or a fool?

Ok, i wanted to say this before, but...

Now you're just twisting logic to fit your belief. It's not the first time you did it, and you sometimes even change direction in the middle, and twist it the other way around..

I mean, first you want to believe it's some special anti-G device, now you're saying you wouldn't want to talk about it if you knew about it?!?



Originally posted by MrdDstrbr
Come on. Be honest.

Gladly As i told you three times by now, i have researched spirituality and paranormal claims for many years, and if i could find something verifiable, i would tell it to people.

If a human being could levitate, the implications of this would be enormous. I wouldn't just tell it to people, i would research it, verify it, and publish a book on it, prooving it is possible, by showing how to verify it. (unlike the new age pseudo science white light babble books, that just use a lot of "big" words to confuse and give an appearance of validity to it's claims)



posted on Feb, 8 2008 @ 08:46 PM
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Originally posted by MrdDstrbr
Think about it, you want to keep anti-gravity technology secret, what better way to do it than have a guy using a real AG device right on TV in front of the whole world - BUT frame it as a "magic trick" or "illusion", and then have him later say, "OMG, all you people who believed that was actually real, you're all frickin idiots!
".

Disinformation. Misdirection. Think about it....

What exactly would this achieve?!?! I have a feeling, that this specific point was twisted in at least two directions by now.

Keeping something secret, by giving it to an illusionist, so that people would think it is only wires? Does this really make sense to you?

Besides, a post or so ago, you said that you believe the audience wasn't paid, so they would have to see there are no wires. So the secret would be out.

Now which is it? Decide.



Originally posted by MrdDstrbr
I am talking about the possibility that DNA more refined and advanced than ours, than what 99.999999999% of people currently have, could actually give people the ability to levitate and all these other psychic abilities, for real.

Which would explain why every few hundred years a "Prophet" comes along who reportedly can levitate, teleport, alter solid matter, heal people, defy Death, etc.

Or it could be explained either by people believing a story and writing it down, so that you could believe it is possible hundreds of years later.



Originally posted by MrdDstrbr
There, I laid out the concept in as straightforward a manner as I possibly could, without using "new age" or "pseudo-scientific" words to confuse the weak-minded

Yes, and especially without actually explaining anything.



posted on Feb, 8 2008 @ 10:30 PM
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Originally posted by deezee
The sawing in half illusion had a larger number of audience, then the golf course and building to building combined.

Still, i can proove, that the entire audience had to be paid for this particular illusion.

So the possibility of a large paid "audience" is not an assumption, but a fact. Never mind the small audience in the golf course and hardly any audience at all in building to building.


You are still ASSUMING that the golf course and B2B audiences are all paid actors, without proof.

I am saying, that is something Team CA would want to AVOID as much as possible - as it isn't even real "magic"! The spirit of "magic" is to perform for UNPAID spectators. And CA has even repeatedly said something to that effect, "if I can't do a stunt live, in front a real audience, I won't do it at all".

Besides, using paid audiences all the time would leave an enormous paper trail of inside witnesses and NDAs etc, something Team CA would also naturally want to avoid. In magic, the fewer the number of people who know how an illusion is really done, the better!

IMHO to say that the entire audience are paid actors is somewhat of a cop-out. It's like saying "I don't have even the slightest clue how he could have possibly done that and tricked real unpaid spectators - so it must be that the whole audience is in on it!".

And note that the exact same cop-out can be used to explain away ANY trick. No clue how it's done? The whole audience is on it, yeah that must be it!!


Hence the challenge to explain how they could be achieved WITHOUT resorting to paid audiences, as real street magic. I'd like to see you guys stop using that same cop-out over and over....



posted on Feb, 8 2008 @ 10:45 PM
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Originally posted by deezee
Now you're just twisting logic to fit your belief. It's not the first time you did it, and you sometimes even change direction in the middle, and twist it the other way around..


No, what I am doing is exploring different possibilities and providing food for thought, which I often like to do.



I mean, first you want to believe it's some special anti-G device, now you're saying you wouldn't want to talk about it if you knew about it?!?


No, I personally, DO talk about weird ideas and conspiracy theories that I can't prove. But people like me are more of an exception than the rule.

I think most people would hesitate to talk about it, for fear of being ridiculed, labelled a nut or a fool etc. Heck, even this thread here on ATS has its share of ridicule toward "the believers". In real life, it gets much, much worse



posted on Feb, 8 2008 @ 11:11 PM
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Originally posted by deezee
What exactly would this achieve?!?! I have a feeling, that this specific point was twisted in at least two directions by now.

Keeping something secret, by giving it to an illusionist, so that people would think it is only wires? Does this really make sense to you?


Well if you are having difficulty understanding my reasoning and posts, I would say that's a problem with you, not me


There's such a thing as "hiding in plain sight". For example, all the occult Illuminati symbology plastered all over the US dollar bill!

So suppose that certain secret groups are in possession of real technology that would enable average, ordinary people to fly and float around in the sky like superheroes. But they want to confuse and misdirect the public AWAY FROM that fact, for fairly obvious reasons.

What better way to do that than to have a guy actually flying and floating around in the sky on TV for the whole world to see - BUT framed as an "Illusion"? And then have him later INSULT all the people who believed it was real? "Oh come on, everyone knows its just an illusion, I can't believe you fools fell for it!"

Hiding in plain sight. Confusion, disinformation and misdirection. Conditioning people to believe that anti-gravity is all smoke and mirrors and tricks, and not a technological reality, a scientific challenge which was already solved, decades ago!

Now, again, I have explained the idea as plainly as I possibly can. If you still don't understand it, that's a problem with you, not me....






Which would explain why every few hundred years a "Prophet" comes along who reportedly can levitate, teleport, alter solid matter, heal people, defy Death, etc.


Or it could be explained either by people believing a story and writing it down, so that you could believe it is possible hundreds of years later.


Well in the modern era we have the concept of "Star Children" or "Indigo Children", which is almost an identical concept. (People being born with advanced psychic abilities.)

I mean, maybe people keep talking about it, and writing about it, all throughout the ages.... because it is a real phenomenon.

Just a thought



posted on Feb, 9 2008 @ 12:02 AM
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Originally posted by MrdDstrbr
[You are still ASSUMING that the golf course and B2B audiences are all paid actors, without proof.


I am saying, that is something Team CA would want to AVOID as much as possible - as it isn't even real "magic"! The spirit of "magic" is to perform for UNPAID spectators. And CA has even repeatedly said something to that effect, "if I can't do a stunt live, in front a real audience, I won't do it at all".

Besides, using paid audiences all the time would leave an enormous paper trail of inside witnesses and NDAs etc, something Team CA would also naturally want to avoid. In magic, the fewer the number of people who know how an illusion is really done, the better!


You sir, are still assuming that those same crowds are not paid actors, without any proof as well. The mere fact that they are small crowds in size for such a famous magician performing such an otherworldly event, should raise warning bells to you.

You may think it is a "cop out" and yes we can't prove it conclusively. However as has been pointed out, the Saw illusion was definitely a paid audience. If you know how the trick is performed you would know that is what had to occur. The is no way the audience would have been shocked and gasping if they had saw Criss Angel move his lower body in the manner he had to. You don't actually believe he was sawn in two do you?

We have also show in multiple instances CA uses the same people in his "Crowds" in multiple events in different shows. He also has used plants (Fremont Experience for starters) and the same ones at the Fremont were the same people in New York years prior. So please don't go claiming CA is truthful in every statement he utters.

As for the paper trail, while I am not sure, I can bet that if a copy of one ever surfaces, the person named in the NDA will be losing a whole bunch of money as they will be violating the terms of the NDA. The trail wouldn't be as "enormous" as you claim. Again for the fourth or fifth time, whay is your average of the "crowds" at CA's "levitations" based on the video record? You keep dodging that question.

My hypotheses on the crowds are that most of them are part of CA's production team in the first place. That's what I would do as it would save me time and money while filming. Plus all of those people would already be under NDA'a and other agreements with CA. Killing two birds with one stone so to speak. It would be the eaisest way to maintain control of the "set". Yes, much of CA"s street magic is not performed in view of the public as it is portrayed, it is basically for all intents and purposes the same as a stage.

Of course we don't have absolute proof of our ideas on the crowds, just circumstantial and anecdotal evidence. You however have supplied no information whatsoever that the crowds in CA"s videos are just normal fans. Have you ever met someone in the "crowd" that actually witnessed CA performing his video "events"?



posted on Feb, 9 2008 @ 09:26 AM
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Originally posted by pavil
However as has been pointed out, the Saw illusion was definitely a paid audience. If you know how the trick is performed you would know that is what had to occur. The is no way the audience would have been shocked and gasping if they had saw Criss Angel move his lower body in the manner he had to. You don't actually believe he was sawn in two do you?

But maybe the government gave him some ultra secret sawing in half technology as well. You know.. To hide it in plain sight...



The simple fact, that the audience at this illusion was much larger than golf course and building to building combined, shows, that CA is more concerned about keeping the levitations secret.


There are a few more things i would like to point out about the sawing in half illusion. Some of them i already mentioned, but some i forgot before.

David Copperfield did it in a box in front of a live audience, but further away from them on a stage.
The box allowed him to do the necessary movements unobserved.
But!

David did it lying face down. It's much easyer to bend over forward, then backwards.

Criss Angel did it on his back. Because it's impossible to completelly bend over backwards - even 90° is hard - his legs went directly down, and then bent at the knees again. This required more place inside the "table", and something beneath it, to conceal the fact, that the table is really a box of sorts. (this same "something" was invisible in David's preformance, because he was further away. Or maybe he could bend so well, that he didn't even need it)


If you look at both preformances very closelly, you will notice, that when "sawn in half", David's upper half of the body, actually ends very close to the end of the "sawn in half" table.
But if you look at CA's preformance, where he is on his back, his upper body ends quite some distance away from the edge of the "sawn in half" table.

This is because it is much harder to bend over backwards..


All the movements involved would be IMPOSSIBLE not to be noticed by the audience, without a box. And because he is on his back, he would probably need a larger box than David did. I mean, those people were standing close to the "table" and even walked through the middle. It's impossible, for them not to have noticed anything.


So, if such a large audience can be paid, to act amazed, shocked, scared, and even faint in one case, for drama, the tiny "audience" in building to building is negligable.

I mean, first it's like 3 or 4 people on the roof and one person on the ground below him (most likely holding the third wire, as has been pointed out, since he is moving at the same speed.

In the second shot, that was taken later, where this one person below dissapears, there is a small number of people further away to the right. Again, 3 or 4, probably the same ones as before on the roof.


I didn't count how many people were on the golf course, but again the number is very small. It's easyer to keep a secret with fewer people. Obviously the levitation secrets are being kept more secret than the sawing in half, just in case...



posted on Feb, 9 2008 @ 09:43 AM
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pavil, you are still ducking the challenge of demonstrating how these illusions could be done as actual proper street magic, in front of real, UNPAID spectators and witnesses.

It's OK to say that you simply don't know and don't have an answer. I don't have even the slightest hint of a clue either, and nor does anyone else, apparently. I can only suggest that perhaps CA was made privy to real anti-gravity technology - which would explain pretty much everything.

Talk about paid audiences all you want, but I don't believe it. Such a thing would be very undesirable for a magician for many reasons that I have already talked about. Yes I understand that in some cases he has plants and accomplices and whatnot - but that is not the same thing as using entire paid audiences....



posted on Feb, 9 2008 @ 10:38 AM
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Originally posted by MrdDstrbr
pavil, you are still ducking the challenge of demonstrating how these illusions could be done as actual proper street magic, in front of real, UNPAID spectators and witnesses.

It's OK to say that you simply don't know and don't have an answer. I don't have even the slightest hint of a clue either, and nor does anyone else, apparently. I can only suggest that perhaps CA was made privy to real anti-gravity technology - which would explain pretty much everything.

Talk about paid audiences all you want, but I don't believe it.


I am not ducking. These events can not be done up close with spectators that are not "in" on it. To do so requires more belief that I am willing to give Criss given his profession and his control of the editorial process and information I have found. You "Don't stop, believing" though. Some of CA gigs are just close up magic that can be performed infront of a real crowd. The ones we are talking about cannot. That is the point we are making. I kinda get that you are not believing our answer on the saw event either, even though it is the exact same trick that DC performs in just a slightly different manner. It's the same trick, CA just uses camera cuts where DC uses a box and an uninterupted shot. Truth be told, DC version of it is much better as it is one shot, CA's just comes off as a cheap horror flick shot, I'm surprised he didn't use fake blood dripping down from them, the networks must have not liked that idea.


I cannot prove they were paid anymore than you can prove they were not. What is the point of arguing that? We have proved that much of his "street magic" is in fact "setups" just as bad as a stage IMO. The walk through glass is done at a "store" with no signs on it and a few pieces of furniture you we are to believe that he "picked" this building at random. In another event he just "happens" to find chain link in pristine condition surrounding a dumpster. Give me a break! That you fall for the "illusion" of all of his event's being real street magic is humorous.

I don't get where we don't have a clue how he has done things. I have been as open as I choose to be in relating how he does those. Others recently have been even more open. The Luxor levitation is achieved by means other than the other "high levitations". You acknowledge small crowds at the other levitations but can't seem to fathom how they might be "in" on it too. They don't necessarily have to be paid. I am not being paid now yet I am withholding the exact ways these things were done. If I were a magician who had a large crew and many other magician friends, I could easily get a "crowd" of 20 people to act 'amazed" at my events. It's really not that hard. Sorry that I can not prove it, you will just have to ask yourself which is more in the realm of possibility; Criss Angel being granted access to "secret govt. anti- grav technology" or him being a skilled magician with a the team and money necessary to pull off a stunt like those we are debating.

You do realize that the wire setups we have talked about would be relatively "invisible" from a distance of 15-20 feet. We are talking about wire the size of fishing line that with three or so lines could explain the building to building, golf course and walk up side of building levitations. You wouldn't need Helicopters and balloons or even a crane give the right surroundings around the levitation. Again, ask yourself why the blurs in the golf course? Why in the B to B does Criss move in a straight line? wouldn't it have been more awesome for him to zig zag across the parking lot if he had true anti grav tech? That is about as much detail as you will get, it is up to you to figure out how the rest is done.

The answers are in front of you but you choose not to see them.

Of course isn't Bob Lazar still nearby in Vegas?........perhaps he gave Criss some of that element that powers the UFO's hmmmmmm, someone should look into that, it's makes perfect sense to me.



posted on Feb, 9 2008 @ 11:09 AM
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Originally posted by MrdDstrbr
Well if you are having difficulty understanding my reasoning and posts, I would say that's a problem with you, not me


Don't you too start being condescending now, please...

I understand what you are saying. But you still didn't explain what exactly this would achieve.



Originally posted by MrdDstrbr
So suppose that certain secret groups are in possession of real technology that would enable average, ordinary people to fly and float around in the sky like superheroes. But they want to confuse and misdirect the public AWAY FROM that fact, for fairly obvious reasons.

Do you really believe, that if people saw someone flying around, like a superhero, doing something, and then flying away, they would think it was just an illusion, because they saw an illusionist do it?

CA's levitations don't even come close to flying around like a super hero.
There are specific limitations to each and every one of them, because different approaches were taken.

If someone saw some person actually fly around, high in the sky "like a superhero", not limited in any way, they would never even think of CA.



Originally posted by MrdDstrbr
What better way to do that than to have a guy actually flying and floating around in the sky on TV for the whole world to see - BUT framed as an "Illusion"? And then have him later INSULT all the people who believed it was real? "Oh come on, everyone knows its just an illusion, I can't believe you fools fell for it!"

Again, what do YOU believe, this would achieve?



Originally posted by MrdDstrbr
Hiding in plain sight. Confusion, disinformation and misdirection. Conditioning people to believe that anti-gravity is all smoke and mirrors and tricks, and not a technological reality, a scientific challenge which was already solved, decades ago!

How do you know that? Please show me, as i would love to know it myself. But wanna-beliefs just don't cut it for me anymore..
So if you have proof of this and an explanation of how it works (that doesn't come from a pseudo scientist's book, show it to me, so i can know.
But please understand, that some of us are NOT satisfied with believing. Some of us actually want to know. And there is a HUGE difference between the two.

And i'm not saying it doesn't exist. I'm just saying, that there is no proof of it's existance, and i'm done believing things without a reason. I will always consider ALL possibilities, assign them probabilities and accept the most probable, as the most likely explanation so far. If i should find any new evidence, i will again do this process all over again, to see if it comes to a new conclusion. I hope you understand what i'm talking about.



Originally posted by MrdDstrbr
Well in the modern era we have the concept of "Star Children" or "Indigo Children", which is almost an identical concept. (People being born with advanced psychic abilities.)

Oh yes, star / ingdigo children. Please enlighten me on those.
Because i haven't spent 15 years researching spirituality and the paranormal, first from the believers point of view and then from an objective psychological and scientific point of view. No, i haven't done that at all and i haven't told you this 5 times by now.

You know, new age belief systems are very appealing to depressed and/or emotionally unstable people. And the list of symptoms of being an "indigo child" is almost exactly the same as the list of symptoms for depression and emotional instability.

But instead of reading through the list and concluding you are depressed, you can read through it, and conclude, that you are an indigo child - something special! Hey great, i'm special! Now which do you think a depressed person would rather believe?

Unfortunatelly, these belief systems never offer a solution to a problem. They just give false hope. Especially the ones with an expiration date attached.

I've been in one such belief system together with my friend, when we were still very young. I left it after a short while, when i realized some of these things. But he got so sucked in, that when the end of the world & ascension didn't come for the second time in the row, he commited suicide.

And yes, according to those new age white light "theories", he was an indigo child... Hmm.. Strange, very strange.. Or not..


May i ask you one thing? How long have you been activelly involved with spirituality, or whatever you call it? How old were you, when you started?



Originally posted by MrdDstrbr
I mean, maybe people keep talking about it, and writing about it, all throughout the ages.... because it is a real phenomenon.
Just a thought


Yeah, maybe, and that would actually be great, and again (and please listen this time as i say it: ) I would LOVE to believe it is possible. Really, i would!
But i haven't found a single shread of real evidence. Every example alwas required a huge leap of faith, and all had a different, much more likely explanation.

So if you have proof, or at least very good evidence for some paranormal ability, please show it to me. I would be forever greatefull to you.

[edit on 9/2/08 by deezee]



posted on Feb, 9 2008 @ 11:17 AM
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Originally posted by pavil
These events can not be done up close with spectators that are not "in" on it



I have been as open as I choose to be in relating how he does those



I am not being paid now yet I am withholding the exact ways these things were done.



That is about as much detail as you will get, it is up to you to figure out how the rest is done.



I am not ducking


Really? You're NOT ducking the challenge.......?




I cannot prove they were paid anymore than you can prove they were not. What is the point of arguing that?


Exactly, it's a fruitless debate when there's not enough evidence either way and we have no access to the actual witnesses. 100+ pages of arguing back and forth certainly shows that.

For my part, I know that information and gossip have a way of spreading around, NDAs or no NDAs. If Team CA were constantly resorting to using entire paid audiences, they would be a laughing stock by now, NDAs or no NDAs. Instead, CA is widely considered to be the best magician there is.

I won't be convinced of paid audiences until there's sufficient evidence for it. So, you might as well save your time and energy for something more productive....



posted on Feb, 9 2008 @ 11:29 AM
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Originally posted by MrdDstrbr
[For my part, I know that information and gossip have a way of spreading around, NDAs or no NDAs. If Team CA were constantly resorting to using entire paid audiences, they would be a laughing stock by now, NDAs or no NDAs. Instead, CA is widely considered to be the best magician there is.


It's Saturday, I have nothing productive to do till later, LOL.

Sorry I am asking to you think for yourself and research some things on your own. Spoon feeding just makes for intellectually lazy people.

We aren't talking about 100's of shows just 5 taped events, in front of a total of 100 people if they were all different people/crowds, which they probably weren't. It's more like 35-40 people "in" on it. Plus what earthshaking thing are they going to tell you? That Criss Angel is *GASP* "just a magician"? It's not the widespread conspiracy that you seem to think it is, just a close circle of like minded people fooling the masses. Sound familiar on this site?

I don't think CA is the best magician there is, just the most popular, big difference there.


[edit on 9-2-2008 by pavil]



posted on Feb, 9 2008 @ 11:36 AM
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Originally posted by deezee
Do you really believe, that if people saw someone flying around, like a superhero, doing something, and then flying away, they would think it was just an illusion, because they saw an illusionist do it?


A lot of people would, yeah. Because CA did it FIRST, and so helped to set the whole framework for how such things will be perceived in the future.





Originally posted by MrdDstrbr
What better way to do that than to have a guy actually flying and floating around in the sky on TV for the whole world to see - BUT framed as an "Illusion"? And then have him later INSULT all the people who believed it was real? "Oh come on, everyone knows its just an illusion, I can't believe you fools fell for it!"

Again, what do YOU believe, this would achieve?


Well, a cool and profitable TV show for one, and also, as I already said, it would help to condition people to think of levitation as "magic tricks" and illusions - and not something that is really achievable with technology. The truth of anti-grav technology hidden in plain sight, in such a way that deceives and misdirects people.

But as I already said, it's just my own little pet conspiracy theory, and not to be taken TOO seriously.....





May i ask you one thing? How long have you been activelly involved with spirituality, or whatever you call it? How old were you, when you started?


I was brought up Roman Catholic from birth, and I have had an interest in all things mystical and spiritual for as long as I can remember.



posted on Feb, 9 2008 @ 11:56 AM
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Originally posted by MrdDstrbr
Talk about paid audiences all you want, but I don't believe it.

In that case, please explain how the sawing in half illusion was done without a completelly paid audience, which (again), was MUCH larger, then both levitations combined.

Either it is possible to pay of even a larger "audience" than at the levitations, or it is not. Now which is it?

If it's not, please explain how he did the saw trick.



Originally posted by MrdDstrbr
Such a thing would be very undesirable for a magician for many reasons that I have already talked about.

Oh you are right, it would be undesirable for any proper illusionist.

The really good ones don't like resorting to paid audiences and video modifying.

Which is the reason CA is looked down upon by real illusionists.

What CA is much closer to Hollywood, then magic.



posted on Feb, 9 2008 @ 12:27 PM
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Originally posted by deezee
In that case, please explain how the sawing in half illusion was done without a completelly paid audience, which (again), was MUCH larger, then both levitations combined.

Either it is possible to pay of even a larger "audience" than at the levitations, or it is not. Now which is it?

If it's not, please explain how he did the saw trick.


Well here again, what you are basically saying is, "we don't have even the slightest clue how he could have done the saw trick for UNPAID spectators - therefore the whole audience must be paid! Therefore CA uses paid audiences!".

Meanwhile, you still don't have a shred of evidence for such a thing


I can't explain how he did the saw trick, because I don't know. But just because I can't figure it out - does not automatically mean that the entire audience is in on it





Oh you are right, it would be undesirable for any proper illusionist.

The really good ones don't like resorting to paid audiences and video modifying.


Right




Which is the reason CA is looked down upon by real illusionists.


Do you have a source for that? That other good illusionists look down on him....?



posted on Feb, 9 2008 @ 12:39 PM
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reply to post by MrdDstrbr
 



What you have to grasp right up front is the fact that the Denier's consider ALL ODDS to be the same. Odds mean ZERO to them. They place the exact same liklihood on suppositions that require vast leaps of faith as they do those that are plain and clear. They cannot prove any payoffs, only imagine it. When you bring up the fact that not ONE person has ever alleged such a payoff, and there is proof of it, all they can do is say : " Well, it MIGHT be so" and accept that as logical!!

I know, I know, it sickens the mind that depends on standards of reason for debate, but that is all we have: Only the people who have nerve and gaul and nothing else can claim with authority matter that have ZERO proof behind them.

I have said it over and over again: It is the INABILITY of the Denier's to weigh odds and calculate probabilities, or their unwillingness to do so in this case, that explains why they MUST believe that props are there, regardless of their total and utter lack of evidence. They even stoop so far as to claim the most ridiculous and far flung ideas and act as if they are seriously to be considered!! Thats nerve!! But when all else fails, resort to making outrageous and unproven claims and then insist that the people who sit amazed at the gaul of the requester prove that they are wrong!!

They cannot see any props. They cannot find anyone who HAS seen the props. They cannopt come up with ONE stinking lousy little paid witness. They will believe that all paid witnesses are loyal and silent forever. When I mention this I NEVER get a reply, because they know that to enter that hall of logic will end up making them look even more foolish and empty than before, so they simply ignore it. They MUST believe in paid witnesses, otherwise the whole thing falls apart for them. They MUST believe in earth shattering odds so they can hold on to their limited knowledge of the physical and immaterial universe.

Deniers believe that they have all the knowledge needed to correctly determine the reality of all events seen on earth; there is no one that can violate the law of gravity and so props are the only answer. And when props are not possible, then paid actors who never talk are the next answer...it goes downhill from there into assumptions so silly that it aggravates the person with real logic for wasting time on them.

BUT, I still believe that there are many people out there with a possibility of learning, like my pal Pavil, whom I respect. We have had back and forth thru all this, and it always comes back to these items that cannot be gotten around with any real evidence or proof on their part:

1. Criss Angel is the only person on earth to perform high levitations in public with witnesses close enough to see if any props are there.

2. Criss' high levitations have been filmed from many angles and by many parties, and reveal NO PROPS whatsoever. Examination of all the video's shows no props. Witnesses have NEVER reported seeing a prop.

3. Criss has never been replicated by anyone else. The reasons given for this by the deniers is so humiliating to them that I will not even go thru it again for their sake, see how nice I am? But, they believe that there are motives for this that are so unlikely that they cannot be considered seriously. No one esle wants money and fame, especially in Vegas...thats the crux of it, I will save you the rest so you do not shake your head so many times that vertigo sets in.

4. Criss high levitations have been seen by so many people that the possibility of paying them all off or relying on their silence for your living is just not a rational excuse, but it is all the Denier's have.

5. NO evidence has ever been shown that Criss or his company have ever intentionally used video editing to fool people watching video's later that the event was different than seen. The Denier's claim that the video's are all changed to eliminate the props that the paid witnesses stay silent about forever, see? getting it now? The chain of logic has snapped long ago but they just keep going because they are headed downhill.

6. They say the video's are frauds, and that only Criss has the nerve and money and utter lack of respect for the law and morality to defraud the public by making video's that have had the props removed and are edited to make Criss LOOK like he is really doing those things. OF COURSE they have NEVER been able to get one iota of proof for this, instead pointing to ' anomalies ' on some video's , like camera angles, and lighting conditions from divergent angles, etc. One had the nerve to try and say that Criss was hanging from some invisible prop because of the ' calculation of the sway " !!

7.. They think that Criss body should assume certain positions if he is really levitating...based upon what experience of their I have no idea...but if he stands still, they say he is on a hidden platform ( that no one can see or film ! )..if he moves around a little they say he is reacting to some sires or such, but they never really can pin this down because after all, who has made a science of ' calculating the sway" ?? They have to rely on the most petty, insignificant nothings to distract from the elephant that just appeared in the room!! ( sorry, I couldn't resist that!)

To Summarize:

So, we have the Denier's that cannot and will not believe that Criss can levitate, because they do not believe that it is possible under any circumstances ( now with the possible exception of using secret advanced government issued technology that is so perfected and accurate using magnetism that Criss would agree to risk his life trusting their word for it..right?

And, what about the fact that Criss never wears enough clothes to hide any devices big enough in this day and age to lift a man as high as he goes. Was it installed on the golf course as well so the paid witnesses could ignore it and act all amazed? See what I mean? This is the level of it all.

The Denier's MUST believe in all the silly and impossible and unlikely and odds shattering excuses, because otherwise they would have to admit the following:

I perhaps do not have all knowledge of the realms that are around us, both seen and unseen. My most basic underpinnings I have been taught may not be complete. My view of reality may not be totally accurate since not all possibilities are available for examination. I am limiting the possibilities of what is real to those that I am comfortable with so that eliminates the possibility I am wrong: This is the logic that I have used as a Denier but it may not necessarily be a truth that the level of my comfort may have no influence on reality.

But of course the ego and pride will not let some enjoy such levels of introspection and honesty, so we keep hearing the same old guesses and the same old tired imaginings; never any evidence, never any testimony, never any witnesses. Instead what we get is a request to believe them because they are right. Thats it. They have to invent vast conspiracies of employees and witnesses and faked video and props that are edited out from the video's; they have an excuse for EVERY event that Criss does:

The vast majority of them, however, as so ludicrous, so far fetched and so odds defying that they simply cannot be taken any more seriously than a claim of human levitation can; looking at all the evidence, like a detective, with DISBELIEF SUSPENDED, and ALL possibilities open, at this point in time it can be said with complete confidence that the detective would conclude that no props exist and that no evidence of them exists that could lead a reasonable person to conclude that props were used.

Taken as seen, and witnessed, and observed and documented, with ABSOLUTELY NO refutation presented that would convince the intelligent mind, I can say with assurance that Criss Angel can levitate for brief periods withour props and that he has done so on many occasions, as seen and witnessed on video and in person. Given the evidence, that is the only logical conclusion. If you remove predetermined prejudices and assumptions from the study, you find that all of the credible evidence says that I am right. No valid and convincing evidence to the contrary has ever been shown.

Denier's have a NEED to believe that all parameters are known and comprehended; it's can be a scary world out there for many people unless they feel they have a solid grasp on what they perceive reality to be: When that is challenged, they have no remorse about abandoning standard ways of making reasoned decisions and evaluating evidence and clinging to any excuse so long as in the end they still believe that they know all there is to knopw about the universe and the effects of the realms on humankind.

Tha is a bold statement: To assume that your grasp of dimensionality and the entire physical universe is complete is an astounding claim, and one that Hawking and Einstein would never have had the nerve to claim!! I am so glad that the Deeniers we deal with have understanding and conceptual abilities that surpass all of known mankind, but until I see kore than words on paaper guessing at what it MIGHT be, I will assume that their confidence is terribly misplaced; I want more than some idea or guess, let' s hear from a witness or see a prop..let's try and confine our imaginations to a level that keeps us on earth and out of the science fiction leauge..debate deserves better than this!!




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