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25,000 civilians killed since Iraq invasion, says report

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posted on Jul, 22 2005 @ 03:40 PM
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Originally posted by IAF101
Yeah Resist, that adolecent trend doesnt seem to die early does it?
The anti-coalition hippies and the anti-Iraq lobby is more interested in resisting capitalism, institution, rules and such, a renaissance of 70's hippie culure if you will! Their is no thought about what the implications are, what are the governments really doing and how their message is going to be interpreted, no! The just rant on regardless


I guess you are one of the Proud Patriots that will always stand in line when the Draft comes up, and will be the first one to pick up the Rifle and start shooting the infidel commies, arabs or any other enemy of the "Freedom and Democracy". I guess you are one of the Slaves that always stands in line and waits patiently for the news on the Fox TV. I guess you are one of those Satisfied Slaves that are the Real Enemies of Freedom.



Why dont you and your " Terrorist-loving" buddies find out what you are really against!
Even if the govt did exactly as you people say you will still have a problem, it is psychological! These people propose no real solutions or present any feasible alternatives but only capable of carring out smear campaign after smear campaing!

I know what I am Resisting Against, dont you worry. I have seen alot of Things in my Lifetime - much more then you have, living in the good old US of A, spoiled by your McDonalds and CocaCola, brainwashed by your FOX and CNN news, formatted by your Hollywood movies and Lied to by your Goverment. But HEY! - whatever makes you Happy!

Trust me Sir, I know WHERE I am Coming from - and I know where I am Going To!



It isnt possible to conduct a survey like that in the present situation because of all the fighiting and danger! Cant you understand that?

They dont want to Count the Dead Civilians because they simply dont CARE.

Why cant you Understand THAT?



Yes it is isnt it!

Well the coalition didnt invite these terrorists in did it? The fundamentalists are to blame for that, not the coalition!

Yea Sure ofcourse - the TERRORISTS - are to Blame.

I wonder how many times you used this Word starting with Letter -T- in Your post. I havent Count them, but I bet its very close to Mister Bush's Averege of using that Word. Use it as MANY times as POSSIBLE! And dont forget to mention Muslim!



The "war on terror" has made it much more difficult today for terrorists to operate that it ever was.



A YES!

Tell that to the DEAD in London Two Weeks Ago!

How many Terrorists Attacks were there in London Prior to Illegal Iraqi Invasion?



Also the war on terror is not only the military action that you see but it is a multi pronged attack that targets all the various facets of fundamentalism and seeks to destroy their main excuse of American conspiracy.

AH YES!

The "Multi Prologned Attacks" on Various Countires in the Middle East that have Oil or have Strategic Important Oil Pipelines running Trhu them.

Wonderful!



Unforutnately, it is wrong people who are being brainwashed, it is the gullible liberals that are falling prey to the brainwashing done by those "pseudo-greenpeace junkies" and the traditional demogogery by the fundamentalistic muslim world.

Or BRAINWASHING done by Neo-Con War-Hungry Power-Mongers - that have done a Splendid Job on You!



That is another fantasy of yours! Their is no restriction on entry to the Iraqi army or police based on ethnicity, thats just liberal propaganda. The system in Iraq takes after teh western model where it is not your origin that matters but your principles and virtues that matter.

Liberal Propaganda?

Ah - Every Excuse is a Good One, they Say.

I belive you havent checked the News lately have you?

Or are you stuck on your usual REPUBLICAN PROPAGANDA MACHINE?



The destruction due to smart bombs is regrettable, but that was WAR and in War people die, sometimes they have to be regretably civilians, that is the trade off. Every great movement has its losses, sadly in this case it had to be civilians.

Tell that to THESE PEOPLE on the Photos.

www.informationclearinghouse.info...



The very fact that the coalition used "smart bombs" demonstrates the fact that our intention is to cause as little collateral damage as possible, that is why the coalition spends so much on a "smart bomb" compared to just carpet bombing the entire area!

What difference does it make if the Smart Bombs Contain DEPLETED URANIUM if they hit the Target and the Uranium stays in the Area for next 10.000 Years?



Again you seem incapable of looking past your misguided notions about America and the global War against terrorism.
The higher moral ground being- Respect for all life, a code of war, compassion for the weak and the wounded, a sense of fairness and an overwhelming urge to destroy extreemism and promote the values of democracy, tolerance and justice!!


Democracy?

Tolerance?

Justice?

In Iraq?



Are You on DRUGS?



It is the fanatics who are not civilised and it is those ignorant masses that fall prey to the demagogery of fanatics! It is they who lack civilisation, it is they who need to be infomed about the human values of compassion,freedom, tolerance and justice that all of humanity the world over expects from a civilised race.

All you ever Knew about them you found out at your Local Neo-Con News Dealer, so I can say that your View is Biased to the Bone.

Again the 3 Words: Freedom, Tolarence, Justice - are You a Fan of Bush Speaches or WHAT?



The current US government and the soldeirs that fight overseas have a strong determination to bring these merchants of death to justice, to punish these inhuman beasts for the pain they casus millions worldwide and to reform the regions that these villans of humanity consider "safe havens".

The US Goverment has a Strong Determination to MAKE MONEY - and thats the Double Truth, Ruth.



Warprofiters? what profit is their in exposing your employees to untold dangers, suffer extreem loses and face heavy opposition from anti-war groups?

Yes WARPROFITEERS - They make LOTS of MONEY on other Peoples Misery.

First You Demolish a Country,

Then You Rebuild a Country.

How nice if all the Companies are in your Hands - it makes WAR a Perfect and Endless source of Money.

Wanna go through the List Again:



1. David J. Lesar, CEO, Kellogg, Brown & Root (subsidiary of Halliburton)

2003 military contracts revenue: $3.9 billion
Runs US military bases in Afghanistan, Bosnia, Djibouti, Georgia, Jordan, Kuwait, Turkey and Uzbekistan, built Guantanamo Bay, Cuba prisons, South Vietnam & Diego Garcia military bases


2. Vance D. Coffman, CEO, Lockheed Martin of Bethesda, Maryland.
2002 Salary: $25.3 million

Campaign Contributions in 2002: $9.7 million, Military Contracts 2000-2003: $69.1 billion,
Products: F-16, F/A-22 jet fighters, C-130J air transport, Hellfire, Javelin missiles


3. Philip M. Condit, CEO, Boeing of Chicago, Illinois
2002 Salary: $4.1 million

Campaign Contributions in 2002: $1.6 million, Military Contracts 2000-2003: $60 billion
Products: F-15 fighter, C-17 air transport, Apache Helicopter, JDAM "smart" bombs


4. William H. Swanson, CEO, Raytheon of Lexington, Massachusetts.
2002 Salary: $8.9 million, Military contracts 2000-2002: $27.5 billion
Products: Patriot & Tomahawk missiles, "Bunker Buster" bomb


5. Ronald Sugar, CEO, Northrop Grumman of Los Angeles, CA
2002 Salary: $1.5 million, military contracts 2000-2002: $34.6 billion (including TRW)
Products: B-2 stealth bomber, amphibious assault ships


6. Nicholas D Chabraja, CEO, General Dynamics of Fall Church, Virginia
2002 Salary: $15.2 million

Campaign Contributions in 2002: $1.64 million, Military Contracts 2000-2002: $25 billion
Products: Abrams M1 tanks, Trident submarines


7. George David, CEO, United Technologies of Hartford, Connecticut
2002 Salary: $9.7 million, Military contracts 2000-2002: $9.8 billion
Products: Black Hawk, Sea Hawk, Comanche helicopters


8. John F. Welch, Jr., CEO, General Electric of Fairfield. Connecticut
2002 Salary: $15.1 million

Campaign Contributions in 2002: $221,350, Military Contracts 2000-2003: $7.7 billion
Products: Aircraft engines, nuclear reactors, NBC news, msnbc.com


9. Paul V. Lombardi, CEO, DynCorp
Owned by Computer Sciences Corporation of El Segundo, California
Campaign Contributions in 2002: $221,350, Military Contracts 2000-2003: $5.5 billion
Products: Rent-a-cops in Afghanistan, Bosnia & Iraq, US-Mexico border, defoliation missions in Colombia.

www.warprofiteers.com...


PS: A Question:

Are You Jewish?

[edit on 22/7/05 by Souljah]




posted on Jul, 24 2005 @ 03:00 AM
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Originally posted by Souljah

Originally posted by IAF101
Yeah Resist, that adolecent trend doesnt seem to die early does it?
The anti-coalition hippies and the anti-Iraq lobby is more interested in resisting capitalism, institution, rules and such, a renaissance of 70's hippie culure if you will!

I guess you are one of the Proud Patriots that will always stand in line when the Draft comes up, and will be the first one to pick up the Rifle and start shooting the infidel commies, arabs or any other enemy of the "Freedom and Democracy". I guess you are one of the Slaves that always stands in line and waits patiently for the news on the Fox TV. I guess you are one of those Satisfied Slaves that are the Real Enemies of Freedom.

Firstly, Have you ever seen FOX Tv before you start insinuating? I dont think so! Granted it has been discredited due to shoddy journalism but it is still a credible news service. Also their is criticism of govt policy on Fox News, so you cant call it a Govt mouthpeice!
Yes, I am a patriot, what wrong in that? I am gratefull to my country, are you not? Do you think your country is not worth valuing? Well, I dont, my country is definitely worth valuing and being loyal to!

I gather from your insinuation that you feel that Patriots are "slaves" to the govt but that is just YOUR opinion! I have disagreed with many policies that I felt were against te cause of America but Iraq I think is nothing wrong!
It is in the interest of America to spread Freedom and Democracy, Saddam was the "illegal ruler" and we took him out to restore democracy instead of Tyranny! The Iraqis themselves thank America of this! This is a FACT!

Unlikt your distructive anti-American criticism that is all but not welcomed except in the back alleys of cyber space, the world as a whole is glad that Saddam is no longer the Dictator in Iraq and he faces Justice before a court of the IRAQI people! That is true justice!

So yeah if draft does come up, I will enlist but i doubt we would resort to a draft when we are so comfortably dispatching hordes of Terrorists from their demonic cause!
Another point is if you are a "Satisfied Slave" how does that make you an enemy of freedom? Maybe your countries bitter stuggle with religion and democratic govenrment has led you to have a biased view of Democracy and Western values ! If so then that is sad!

Originally posted by Souljah
I know what I am Resisting Against, dont you worry. I have seen alot of Things in my Lifetime - much more then you have, living in the good old US of A, spoiled by your McDonalds and CocaCola, brainwashed by your FOX and CNN news, formatted by your Hollywood movies and Lied to by your Goverment. But HEY! - whatever makes you Happy!
Trust me Sir, I know WHERE I am Coming from - and I know where I am Going To!

Oh! so now abstenance from McDonalds and CocaCola is the secret of being a tough Slav! Who'd a thunk it ?

So what excatly are you resisting? America, democracy, iraq's invasion, human values or all the above!

It is a general delusion that Americans are spoiled and we some how make easy money and live in the lap of luxury! Well that is absolutely wrong, if you have ever been to the US you would know that! Though we may not face the same problems as the rest of the world does we too have equally tough demons that we have to get past every day, we too have a bitter struggle and it isnt ever easy!
America is what it is today because of hard work and ingenuity, nothing else .


Originally posted by Souljah
They dont want to Count the Dead Civilians because they simply dont CARE.
Why cant you Understand THAT?

Because that is totaly False, if America didnt care then how come we provide so much in Aid, how come American soldiers go around each day to risking their lives to find and destroy terrorists who are killing innicient iraqis? How come we are feeding and reconstructing so much of Iraq and providing i with facilities that it never would have had with saddam? how come we allow them to practise their religion freely, vote for their government and have a truly credible iraqi force of police and army ?
Becaue we do CARE! We dont believe in leaving things half done and turn our backs on Iraq and its future!
You may nto be able to comprehend this due to you deepseated hatered and delusions of a conspiracy but that is your fate!


Originally posted by Souljah


Yes it is isnt it!

Well the coalition didnt invite these terrorists in did it? The fundamentalists are to blame for that, not the coalition!

I wonder how many times you used this Word starting with Letter -T- in Your post. I havent Count them, but I bet its very close to Mister Bush's Averege of using that Word. Use it as MANY times as POSSIBLE! And dont forget to mention Muslim!

So what does this mean? You have no response to a fact except an attempt at humor?

Muslim or christian- A Terrorist has no religion!. Fundamentalists are the people who are responsible, they have to be countered, the muslim community has a majority of them, that is a fact!

Originally posted by Souljah


The "war on terror" has made it much more difficult today for terrorists to operate that it ever was.

Tell that to the DEAD in London Two Weeks Ago!
How many Terrorists Attacks were there in London Prior to Illegal Iraqi Invasion?

Their were many! Have you forgottent the IRA bombings? These terrorists would attack even if iraq had not been invaded. The dead in London only reinforced the will to crush these devils sooner rather than later!
So this is a demonstration of what we fight against in Iraq each day, thus the need to use more force, sooner or later if this contiues the whole of the middle east will have to face the music!


Originally posted by Souljah
The "Multi Prologned Attacks" on Various Countires in the Middle East that have Oil or have Strategic Important Oil Pipelines running Trhu them.

To that I cannot reply as they are the rantings of the brainwashed, not of the rational!



Originally posted by Souljah
Liberal Propaganda?
Or are you stuck on your usual REPUBLICAN PROPAGANDA MACHINE?

I am American first then anything else! You havent ever come to America have you , that woudl explain this infantile response!
though you are not American your response seems that which is thoroughly infuneced by the liberal left that is still disappointed over an election defeat, unknowingly they have recruited gullible people such as your self to spread their smear capaigne, which you apparently have taken up with fevor!
SAD!

Well, as they say - A sucker is born every second!

Originally posted by Souljah


The destruction due to smart bombs is regrettable, but that was WAR and in War people die, sometimes they have to be regretably civilians, that is the trade off. Every great movement has its losses, sadly in this case it had to be civilians.

Tell that to THESE PEOPLE on the Photos.
www.informationclearinghouse.info...

I dont need to they have already been told by the DoD!
Also they apparently arent as bothered about it as you are!

They know that it is much better to die in a war against the tyrant than being killed by starvation and genocide by the tyrant!

Originally posted by Souljah
What difference does it make if the Smart Bombs Contain DEPLETED URANIUM if they hit the Target and the Uranium stays in the Area for next 10.000 Years?

They never used DU on any civilian targets! That is again your delusion!
It is common knowledge that DU is used in buker blasting missiles and other deep penetration weapons! not on precision guided munitions !
i have recently read up on DU, it is harmfull but its uses on the battle feild are too important to ignore!
The important thing about DU is that nearly 70% of it is destroyed on direct impact! so what ever remains is a very small portion. Also Du is mainly used in armour piercing weapons which are not found in civilian targets. Also the regular weapons have non toxic explosives, like the ones they used to strike Saddams palaces in Bagdad.
Here is a good site that gives a balances view:
cseserv.engr.scu.edu...

Originally posted by Souljah
All you ever Knew about them you found out at your Local Neo-Con News Dealer, so I can say that your View is Biased to the Bone.

I have stayed in Saudi Arabia for 5 years during the First Gulf War and Saudi Arabia is considered the heartland of the muslims. I hae interacted with many people there from the surrounding regions and know how they think. So you are in no position to question my knowledge about Muslims or arabs!
Guess who is biased here!


Originally posted by Souljah
Again the 3 Words: Freedom, Tolarence, Justice - are You a Fan of Bush Speaches or WHAT?

Those are the very fundamental principles of America, they are known by all Americans and by all those nations that follow democracy and respect human llife.
Maybe you are not aware as you are from a war torn region, these values are very important in the western world!
That is why Bush uses them so much, to state out our values to the world.



Originally posted by Souljah
The US Goverment has a Strong Determination to MAKE MONEY - and thats the Double Truth, Ruth.

You attempts at humor are ammusing, but misguided.
The US govt can make double what it makes without having a war, it is the richest nation in the world, what do we care about the troubles of petty barbarians in the Arab world, that was the attitude before these barbarians attacked us.
Now that we notice them they dont want this attention!
That is yet another Anti-American delusion that you have. That Iraq somehow is our bread winner!

Without war our economy would soar, that is why we face an economic problems.

Originally posted by Souljah
Yes WARPROFITEERS - They make LOTS of MONEY on other Peoples Misery.
First You Demolish a Country,
Then You Rebuild a Country.

We told Saddam to surrender, he choose not to comply and thus made his poeple to suffer along with him. He knew that America was not toying as we did the same in Afganistan but pride got in his way, that is too bad.:du:

The US makes no money in IRAQ, they are a drain on our economy and Iraq costs America a lot of money.
Why cant you see things rationally instead of falling gullibly head first into some delusion of American conspiracy and anti-coaliton propaganda!

I cant blame you though with all the AMERICAN influence in this site especially the liberal brigade, it is easy to be carried away on some fantasy of conspiracy and evil.


Originally posted by Souljah
Wanna go through the List Again:

The entire list except the first one is people who supply the US military weapons and equipment, so using "common sense" it would seem that these people have provided America equipment and thus were paid for their services!
And the first one is kellogs, I think they were paid for supplying the Us military cereal or something!

What is wrong with that?
Havent you heard about paying for what you buy!

Originally posted by Souljah
PS: A Question: \
Are You Jewish?

So it is now you who is " Biased to the Bone" agaisnt the Jews ?

What does that have to do with anything, this just shows that you have are anti-semetic and are have a deep seated hatered against the West due to your personal struggles and the state of your nation!



posted on Jul, 24 2005 @ 03:55 AM
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Originally posted by Souljah
The figures, compiled from Iraqi and international media reports, found US and coalition military forces were responsible for 37% of the deaths

I'm a strong supporter of the war, but the number of deaths contributed to US forces is shocking, I hope this is not accurate.



-----------------------------------------------------------
get free stuff (for real this is not a scam), how it works click here

[edit on 24-7-2005 by Isay]



posted on Jul, 24 2005 @ 04:15 AM
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IAF101:
It is in the interest of America to spread Freedom and Democracy, Saddam was the "illegal ruler" and we took him out to restore democracy instead of Tyranny! The Iraqis themselves thank America of this! This is a FACT!


It is funny to talk legal issues. Guess what- this war is illegal because:
1)it is not self-defence
2)there was no humanitarian need
3)THERE WAS NO UNSC RESOLUTION JUSTIFYING IT

It was based on lies. Basically in two directions: Saddam had WMD, Saddam had links with Al Qaeda. The talk about liberating became the reason just after the first two became known as lies. Whatever the government now, it is not a democratic government. It is a shiite-kurdish government, which will be a friendly (to US) dictatorship. Just as q comparison, Saddam's foreign minister was a well known Christian (this was somehow neglected). These are the facts. And it is doubtful that any Iraqi is thankful (except for those who came in power). Thankful for what?! For the bombs? For the murders? For the depleted uran? For the economic sanctions?For the uncertainty? Come on, you must be joking...



posted on Jul, 24 2005 @ 04:53 AM
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Originally posted by Malkut
It is funny to talk legal issues. Guess what- this war is illegal because:
1)it is not self-defence

True

Originally posted by Malkut
2)there was no humanitarian need

False

Originally posted by Malkut
3)THERE WAS NO UNSC RESOLUTION JUSTIFYING IT

The War no! But setting a Democratic govt in iraq- YES!

Originally posted by Malkut
It was based on lies. Basically in two directions: Saddam had WMD, Saddam had links with Al Qaeda. The talk about liberating became the reason just after the first two became known as lies. Whatever the government now, it is not a democratic government. It is a shiite-kurdish government, which will be a friendly (to US) dictatorship.

NO! It is a democratically elected govt that has representation even from Saddam's party(forget what it was called! ) and this govt was elected by the Iraqi people even with the terrorist threat!

Originally posted by Malkut
Just as q comparison, Saddam's foreign minister was a well known Christian (this was somehow neglected). These are the facts.

So what does that have to do with anything? Our war is not religious! We are not like the fundamentalists who see every think through religious lenses, we have muslims in the army that are in irq fighting the terrorists in iraq.

Originally posted by Malkut
And it is doubtful that any Iraqi is thankful (except for those who came in power). Thankful for what?! For the bombs? For the murders? For the depleted uran? For the economic sanctions?For the uncertainty? Come on, you must be joking...

Bombs- That was during the war not now. The war was because Saddams and his sons didnt leave Iraq. Fault- Saddam
Murders- you must surely be refereing to the mass murders that Saddam commited, because the US does not murder, we fight terrorist, if they die they are killed in combat not murdered!
DU- That was also during the war, it is essential as it lowered costs and avoided a protracted conflict that would other wise have taken place killing more people.
Economic Sanctions- This was due to the fact that Saddam was using his exports to buy weapons instead of feeding his people who starved and lived in squaller. Fault= Saddam.
Uncertainity -This is vague, but i think i get what you mean. Iraq now has no uncertainity, a democratic government will be set up and one which treats all people fairly irrespective of their religion, a progressive governemnt in a liberal society that respects human rights and dignity of all people. A govenrment that will be a model in the Arab world, to show then that a muslim country can exsist that is neither fundamentalistic nor deviates from the muslim faith and holds the principles of democracy and human rights to the highest.
Before the war their was some uncertainity but I dont think it was ever doubted that the Americans will lose. Also now as Saddam prepares to be judged, a truly independent system of justice will be established in Iraq. The future is only bright for Iraq. The only hinderance is these foreign terrorists!
Due to all this, after say 50 yrs the Iraqis will thank US and stand by America as a credible soverign democratic nation in the middle east.



posted on Jul, 24 2005 @ 05:37 AM
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IAF101,

well, I will be really short, because I think you see everything way too rosy to be able to make an objective judgement (no offence). The reason I make the comment about the Iraqi foreign minister being a Christian is quite self-explanatory. Saddam's government was not a narrow Sunni government sponsoring Islamic fundamentalists. The current government is narrow shiite-kurdish government. The Saddam's party is no longer, so do not make such speculative statements. It was called BAATH party. And it was outllawed by Berner (way before the elections).

The war is illegal, no doubt about it. Using 'fixed' intelligence in front of UNSC is a crime, too.

I can not even imagine somebody justyfying DU. See pics of its results in Iraq:

www.ericblumrich.com...

I do not remember the rest of your sntence, but I think it was implying that Iraqis should be grateful that we brought them our ways and our views of democracy. Why don't you go in Iraq and see how grateful they are? Sorry, if I am a bit harsh, but reading posts like yours just make me...

Btw, if this was truly Saddam who is to be judged, why his wife said it was not her husband and refused to talk to that person?



posted on Jul, 24 2005 @ 06:39 AM
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I just can't see Iraq being a democracy any time soon.

You cannot force democracy on a population; democracy has to be understood, initiated and followed by the people themselves - not an invading/occupying/liberating force.

Anyone else recall the oil states during the 80s? With the sudden influx of wealth, we watched certain countries take the bull by the horns and try to jump from "technologically barren" to "technologically advanced", without undergoing those vital babysteps - understanding, accepting, becoming comfortable with the concepts - that go inbetween.

And then we watched as the money faltered, the companies collapsed, and the people become more disillusioned with their governments, who had promised so much and yet followed through with what was perceived as so little.

I fear that's exactly what will happen if we try to force democracy upon a people who simply are not ready for it.



posted on Jul, 24 2005 @ 09:45 PM
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A Newsweek article addressing the matter of this report:


But how often, really? The answer: not very often, in fact. And not nearly often enough to make the 150,000 U.S. and coalition troops in Iraq the leading scourge of Iraq's civilians. That dishonor goes, hands down, to the insurgents. Even one incident is bad, of course, and there have been many. But civilian killings by U.S. troops are not nearly as common as the critics of the war in Iraq would like us to believe. It has become an article of faith among them that American troops have been slaughtering Iraqi civilians indiscriminately, and that one of the consequences of the war has been an unconscionable loss of life among the civilian population. It just isn't true.


-----snip-----



Reported death tolls vary widely for the same incident. But leaving aside the reliability of this data, it's highly dubious to suggest, as this report clearly intends to do, that these deaths were the fault of the U.S. military presence in Iraq. The text of the report is decorated with pull quotes from news accounts of checkpoint killings and aerial bombardments. Even if U.S. troops didn't kill all these people, they're telling us, these civilians would not have died were it not for the U.S. presence. Is it the policeman's fault when the hostage taker kills his hostage?


-----snip-----



In fact, a fair reading of the report's own data could support a completely contrary conclusion. Were it not for the insurgents, there would scarcely be much of a civilian death toll in Iraq now. A few isolated cases, yes, but nothing like the 8,000 civilians the Iraqi government says have died so far in 2005 from insurgent attacks. Fully 30 percent of the civilian fatalities Iraq Body Count records took place prior to May 1, 2003, when U.S. troops were actively engaged in the invasion and in subduing remnants of Saddam's army. During that military campaign, large numbers of Saddam Fedayeen and other irregular forces foght back from the cover of civilian dress, a violation of the laws and customs of warfare. Those who died were inevitably declared civilians by their loved ones. And such forces in most places represented the bulk of the resistance against the invasion; the uniformed Iraqi military for the most part deserted and fled. And Saddam's forces, both uniformed and not, systematically took refuge in schools, mosques, hospitals, and civilian neighborhoods, using those places as firebases—a guarantee that civilians would be killed in the process. In many places, coalition troops held their fire and slowed their advance for fear of causing greater civilian loss of life. In all, 6,616 civilian fatalities are listed by the report. Even if you make the dubious assumption that all of them were truly civilians, it is not surprising that so many died. Given the tactics of the enemy, it's surprising that so few did.

Truth is the First Civilian Casualty


I'm wondering if Newsweek visits this site, because some of what they have mentioned and have presented as arguements against this report, have been presented in this very thread...the irony of it all, eh?





seekerof

[edit on 24-7-2005 by Seekerof]



posted on Jul, 25 2005 @ 09:34 AM
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Just a thought on soulah's comments on war profitteering. Most of the industrial names don't rationally make sense. Most of the weapons systems used in Iraq are rapidly becoming obsolete. F-15s, F-16s, Trident Subs, M1A2s, etc . have all been purchased with circa 1970, 1980s, 1990s money, and these weapons systems will be replaced by new models anyways. If anything, we're using up our old weapons rather than scrapping them. There are exceptions (hummers, ammo, missile systems). But, in general, all equipment except the M1A2 fielded in Gulf War 2 has been long slated to leave frontline troops by the mid 2010s. Most of the equipment would be mothballed or given to National Guard units by then.

Also, other than the ammo manufacturers and AM General(Hmmwee maker) and an occasional blackhawk, no company is replacing equipment lost in the field. In fact, we're at a very vulnerable time, as equipment in the field is nearing end of life, and replacement equipment is not yet fielded.

Man, with threads like this I can't wait for the beginning of the pullout...But then they'll start complaining about the airbases we've built there(the whole "we haven't really pulled out" argument is coming, I promise you, though we're still in the UK, Germany, Japan, South Korea, Philappines, and even freakkin' Cuba!!!)



posted on Jul, 25 2005 @ 11:40 AM
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Originally posted by IAF101
Firstly, Have you ever seen FOX Tv before you start insinuating? I dont think so! Granted it has been discredited due to shoddy journalism but it is still a credible news service. Also their is criticism of govt policy on Fox News, so you cant call it a Govt mouthpeice!

I have Seen ALOT of Fox News in a Documentary Called OUTFOXED and I really dont call that Journalism but Pure Propaganda.

I suggest the Following Thread:

FOX News: We Report, You Decide



Yes, I am a patriot, what wrong in that? I am gratefull to my country, are you not? Do you think your country is not worth valuing? Well, I dont, my country is definitely worth valuing and being loyal to!


"Patriotism ... for rulers is nothing else than a tool for achieving their power-hungry and money-hungry goals, and for the ruled it means renouncing their human dignity, reason, conscience, and slavish submission to those in power. ... Patriotism is slavery."
-Leo Tolstoy-



I gather from your insinuation that you feel that Patriots are "slaves" to the govt but that is just YOUR opinion!

And its not ONLY My Opinion.

"Conceit, arrogance, and egotism are the essentials of patriotism. Patriotism assumes that our globe is divided into little spots, each one surrounded by an iron gate. Those who have had the fortune of being born on some particular spot, consider themselves better, nobler, grander, more intelligent than the living beings inhabiting any other spot. It is, therefore, the duty of everyone living on that chosen spot to fight, kill, and die in the attempt to impose his superiority upon all the others."
-Emma Goldman-



I have disagreed with many policies that I felt were against te cause of America but Iraq I think is nothing wrong!

Good For You!

In My Opiniom EVERYTHING is Wrong with the War in Iraq - from the Beginning to the End.



It is in the interest of America to spread Freedom and Democracy, Saddam was the "illegal ruler" and we took him out to restore democracy instead of Tyranny! The Iraqis themselves thank America of this! This is a FACT!


Are you Aware how man TYRANNTS are Currently in Control of Africa?

Its the Legancy of European Colonialism and who is going to Pay for it?

Ofcourse the Poor African People, that always end up Suffering an Dying - while the West plays Games of Geo-Politics in Places they Hold Most Important, such as Resource Rich Middle East.

Conflicts in Africa



Unlikt your distructive anti-American criticism that is all but not welcomed except in the back alleys of cyber space, the world as a whole is glad that Saddam is no longer the Dictator in Iraq and he faces Justice before a court of the IRAQI people! That is true justice!


TRUE Justice does not Come from Man or His Actions.

True Justice is the Power of the Divine.



So yeah if draft does come up, I will enlist but i doubt we would resort to a draft when we are so comfortably dispatching hordes of Terrorists from their demonic cause!

GREAT!

Another Meat for the Meatgrinder!

The Genreals will be Most Happy to Receive Your Body and make it Theirs to Follow Orders.



Another point is if you are a "Satisfied Slave" how does that make you an enemy of freedom? Maybe your countries bitter stuggle with religion and democratic govenrment has led you to have a biased view of Democracy and Western values ! If so then that is sad!

Do you even know what Country I Am from?

Or is Everything away from your "Little Island of Freedom and Democracy" just So far you dont really CARE?



Oh! so now abstenance from McDonalds and CocaCola is the secret of being a tough Slav! Who'd a thunk it ?


Life made me Tought - Mcdonalds wake you Weak.

Suggest you see the Movie SUPER SIZE ME.



So what excatly are you resisting? America, democracy, iraq's invasion, human values or all the above!


I am Resisting against Current American Goverment, their Spreading of "Democracy", their Illegal Iraqi Invasion, their War on Terror that CREATES Terror and their Hypochrisy, that is SO Obvious that it makes me SICK.




Because that is totaly False, if America didnt care then how come we provide so much in Aid, how come American soldiers go around each day to risking their lives to find and destroy terrorists who are killing innicient iraqis?

ERr....Because its their JOB and they were ORDERD to?



Becaue we do CARE! We dont believe in leaving things half done and turn our backs on Iraq and its future!

Who's WE?

You and your friends in Republican Class?

Your Corrupt Goverment?

Your Corrupt Corporations that make money out of Misery and Destruction?

Your Military, whos Generals just cant wait to blow up this Planet with nukes?

TELL ME, who CARES these days?

If you would Care you would help the People who need help FIRST - and they are located in a Continent that nobody wants to touch anymre, since the time that SLAVES are not considered "Crucial War Resource" Anymore. Today its OIL, and when OIL Runs out, your Precious Army and the "People who CARE" will Run out of Middle East FORVER too.



Muslim or christian- A Terrorist has no religion!. Fundamentalists are the people who are responsible, they have to be countered, the muslim community has a majority of them, that is a fact!

WHOA! For Once I actually AGREE with your Statement.





So this is a demonstration of what we fight against in Iraq each day, thus the need to use more force, sooner or later if this contiues the whole of the middle east will have to face the music!

Oh yea -by Using even MORE Force what do you think it will Happen?

Great Bush's War on Terror has Created so much Terrorists Attacks since the 9-11 that the Usage of FORCE has shown what the real Effect is - more Death and more Destruction. Today Iraq is the State of Terrorism and not the State of Democracy. And this Terror has spread across the Borders of Iraq to Europe and the rest of the World. Thanks mister Bush: Job Well Done! Mission Accomplished!



though you are not American your response seems that which is thoroughly infuneced by the liberal left that is still disappointed over an election defeat, unknowingly they have recruited gullible people such as your self to spread their smear capaigne, which you apparently have taken up with fevor!

If Im not Right I must be LEFT, right?

I take no Sides - I am on MY Side, which is not Left and not Right.

My side is Right for me an Right for the Things I belive in and the Values I Consider to be Important.

And Invading Foreign Countires is not on that List.



Well, as they say - A sucker is born every second!

I took that as an Insult - is that really Best you can do in times you run out of Arguments?

Have I insulted You in my Posts, Sir?



The destruction due to smart bombs is regrettable, but that was WAR and in War people die, sometimes they have to be regretably civilians, that is the trade off. Every great movement has its losses, sadly in this case it had to be civilians.

OH yea, its just "Collateral Damage"

"OOPS SORRY! Our Extremly Smart Bombs Missed and Hit the Wedding and killed everybody there. Wont happen again!"



They know that it is much better to die in a war against the tyrant than being killed by starvation and genocide by the tyrant!

AND WHO ARE YOU TO DECIDE IN WHAT WAY THEY WILL DIE?

Are you God or something?

Is America the HOLY Nation that spread the Word of GOD?

Is America Guided by Saint Michael the Archangel Himself?



They never used DU on any civilian targets! That is again your delusion!
It is common knowledge that DU is used in buker blasting missiles and other deep penetration weapons! not on precision guided munitions !

seattlepi.nwsource.com...
www.iacenter.org...
www.rense.com...
www.csmonitor.com...
www.commondreams.org...
www.truthout.org...



Those are the very fundamental principles of America, they are known by all Americans and by all those nations that follow democracy and respect human llife.
Maybe you are not aware as you are from a war torn region, these values are very important in the western world!
That is why Bush uses them so much, to state out our values to the world.


So you think you can EXPORT these 3 Values like McDonalds Restaurants?

Do you think ANY of those 3 Values is in Effect today in Iraq?



The US govt can make double what it makes without having a war, it is the richest nation in the world, what do we care about the troubles of petty barbarians in the Arab world, that was the attitude before these barbarians attacked us.

Then why doesnt your Country TRY to make it Without WAR?

You know why?

Becaue EMPIRES need WARS in order to Stay Alive.

Wars makes them Strong and they make them Number One.



The US makes no money in IRAQ, they are a drain on our economy and Iraq costs America a lot of money.

Yes Ofcourse they DONT - thats why the Military Budget this Year was All Time High.

Where do YOu think this Money will go?

Yep got that right - the Military Contractors - the WARPROFTIEERS!



The entire list except the first one is people who supply the US military weapons and equipment, so using "common sense" it would seem that these people have provided America equipment and thus were paid for their services!

But when Wars STOP - these People run out of Business.

Meaning - they NEED Wars to Continue and to be Everlasting.



And the first one is kellogs, I think they were paid for supplying the Us military cereal or something!


Even when People dont Kill Each other, they will HAVE to Eat.

Meaning, that Kellogs wont run out of Business, as long as there are Hungry People around.



What does that have to do with anything, this just shows that you have are anti-semetic and are have a deep seated hatered against the West due to your personal struggles and the state of your nation!

I just asked You and you have attacked me for that.

Whats your Problem - feel Threatened?

[edit on 25/7/05 by Souljah]



posted on Jul, 25 2005 @ 01:02 PM
link   
As a totally nonsensical aside that came into my head due to the "Supersize Me" comment. Ever wonder if all you can eat Chinese Buffets is actually a long term plot by communist China to weaken the U.S. Populace? I still can't figure out how they make money at those places...

Supersize Me, and the 30 Days series are real eye openers, as long as you take them with a grain of salt. As an example: In 30 Days, Spurlock and hos girlfriend would have cleared $1000 after the first month if it were not for two midnight trips to the ER, for somewhat iffy problems. Anyone living on a limited budget knows you don't pay the ER/Doctor bill till last. Utilities are always first...

Neatest fact from Supersize me ""There are only seven items at McDonald's that contain no sugar: French fries, diet coke, coffee, sausage, hash browns, Chicken McNuggets, and iced tea. Even salads contain sugar.""

Anyways, corporations can be evil because they have no concious other than that which is placed upon it by those in charge. Similarly, they can also be good, but that is a rare occurance. But, in general, they are what they are: cash building machines with no soul. Example, why would you give two employees 4 four hour shifts instead of 2 eight hour shifts? Becuase you won't have to schedule or pay a lunch. Wal-Mart isn't evil, the shift managers that play with human lives to get up the corporate ladder are...

[edit on 7/25/2005 by soulforge]



posted on Jul, 25 2005 @ 01:08 PM
link   

Originally posted by soulforge
As a totally nonsensical aside that came into my head due to the "Supersize Me" comment. Ever wonder if all you can eat Chinese Buffets is actually a long term plot by communist China to weaken the U.S. Populace? I still can't figure out how they make money at those places...

I am not saying that eating at Chinese Buffet's or Donner Kebab's is any Healthier - well maybe.

The Problem is in the Basic Food Ingredients that these People buy and where they buy it from. Mcdonalds as the Biggest Chain of Restaurants all over the World has also the Biggest Supply Chain of Meat, Vegetables and other Ingredients for their Products.

I personally think that "Junk Food" is Junk no matter what's the Lable on it, but I just dont go to McDonalds, Period. That does not mean I eat any Healthier Food when I go to chinese Restaurant or when I grab a Bite of Pizza.

If I wanted to really LIVE HEALTHY I should cut down on all the Junk in my Food and really eat "Natural Only Products" and not eat at "Fast Food Industry Giants".

But now we are SEVERLY Out of Topic...



posted on Jul, 27 2005 @ 08:38 AM
link   

Originally posted by Souljah
I have Seen ALOT of Fox News in a Documentary Called OUTFOXED and I really dont call that Journalism but Pure Propaganda.

So it would seem to the already brainwashed!


Originally posted by Souljah
"Patriotism ... for rulers is nothing else than a tool for achieving their power-hungry and money-hungry goals, and for the ruled it means renouncing their human dignity, reason, conscience, and slavish submission to those in power. ... Patriotism is slavery."
-Leo Tolstoy-

Tolstoy! Ha! Thats a joke to quote him about Patriotism right!
That Anarchist and his view about Patriotism!


Originally posted by Souljah
And its not ONLY My Opinion.
-Emma Goldman-

Do you know who these people you quote really are or do you just pick quotes at random!
Of all the people in the world to quote you choose Emma Goldman to quote on patriots and national feeling!!

Who are you going to try next Alexander Berkman?

Granted she was a feminist but a true anarchist if their ever was one!


Originally posted by Souljah
Are you Aware how man TYRANNTS are Currently in Control of Africa?
Its the Legancy of European Colonialism and who is going to Pay for it?

Boo-hoo, do you want me to cry?

Are you aware of the amount of money that AMerica has spent on African Aid?
Africa is Europe's problem! They left it and now they have to take care of it! Not americas!
America is fighting a war against terrorism and that means we seek and destroy terrorists and their infrastructure, not molly-coddle people who are incapable of developing themselves!
We do our bit the rest is left to them. As they say-"You can take a horse to the water.. "
We provide aid, they should see how to utilize it as best as they can! If they cant too bad, not Americas problem!
America's problem starts when the actions of the world interfere with the freedom and democracy of Free nations and America, like 9/11.
The African people are quite capable of taking care of themselves or should learn how to do so, just as china and India have done. A couple of decades ago Africa, China and India were all alike now look at them!
It the peoples attitude that matters! America helps them as much as it can and so it did in Dafur and many other calamites before that. But the calling for freedom has to come from within!

Originally posted by Souljah
TRUE Justice does not Come from Man or His Actions.
True Justice is the Power of the Divine.

Hyperbole! Not interested with this prattle!

Make a point! If you have one that is!


Originally posted by Souljah
GREAT!
Another Meat for the Meatgrinder!
The Genreals will be Most Happy to Receive Your Body and make it Theirs to Follow Orders.

The problem is you think my country is like your country, not worth two-hoots but you are wrong, America is worth defending and fighting for.
Because our cause is the cause of humanity, our struggle with terrorism is humanity's struggle against extreemist thought .
The US military has one of the lowest casualities compared to the amount of action it sees, that is a fact. Even with these casualities the government is trying to cut it down even further, because we strive for perfection.


Originally posted by Souljah
Or is Everything away from your "Little Island of Freedom and Democracy" just So far you dont really CARE?

My "little Island of Freedom and Democracy" is the THIRD largest nation in the world, not so little is it?

Democratic nations constitue most of the worlds major nations, so democracy and freedom are the fundamental priciples of most of the worlds nations. It is obviously the main principle for civilisation.
Basically Americans dont care much about the world because it no way impacts the everyday American, but when we do get interested we are fully commited, just like our war against Terrorism from the Islamic fundamentalists.
Also this statement shows that you have no real value for freedom or democracy as the rest of the civilised world has.

Originally posted by Souljah
Life made me Tought - Mcdonalds wake you Weak.
Suggest you see the Movie SUPER SIZE ME.

Such grandiose delusions!
So do you base all your opinions on crappy movies like "super size me" ?

I dont know where your going with this Mc donalds thing, but if you think that it somehow represents American values, then you are sourly mistaken.
By your "McDonalds make you Weak" I hope that is just more of your anti-american rhetoric because as everybody knows America is the MOST powerfull nation on this earth!


Originally posted by Souljah
I am Resisting against Current American Goverment, their Spreading of "Democracy",

Well, whether you like it or not it is going to happen and almost all democratic nations are with america, all those that matter atleast!

Originally posted by Souljah
their Illegal Iraqi Invasion,

Iraq Invasion illegal? Who's Jurisprudence do we have to humor to do the right thing ? Kofi Anann's?


Originally posted by Souljah
their War on Terror that CREATES Terror and their Hypochrisy,

We were attacked by the terrorists on 9/11 and so we WILL respond no matter what it takes!
The last time somebody did something as hideous on American soil was gifted two nukes after we decimated their "empire". Fortunately this time we were much more restrained, so far atleast! So be happy and thank GOD for small mercy!

Actually in America we dont care what the rest of the world think about our war on terror, we just know that they attacked us and it now time that they are brought to justice. Along the way many other nations have also been attacked and now this reinforces world opinion against these terrorists!


Originally posted by Souljah


Because that is totaly False, if America didnt care then how come we provide so much in Aid, how come American soldiers go around each day to risking their lives to find and destroy terrorists who are killing innicient iraqis?

ERr....Because its their JOB and they were ORDERD to?

How very astute of you! Are you a 8 year old boy that cant see past the obvious?

In case you are here is the response:
Why is it their JOB to protect Iraqis? Why were they ordered to do so?
Because the US want to safegaurd Iraqi civilians. Because America CARES!!
My next statement in that post also conveyed the same.


Originally posted by Souljah
Who's WE?
You and your friends in Republican Class?
...........

More histrionics!! And Insults!
But thats just you isnt it?


Originally posted by Souljah
WHOA! For Once I actually AGREE with your Statement.



good for you!! Glad to know that your view of the world is not completely skewed! So their is still hope then!


Originally posted by Souljah
Great Bush's War on Terror has Created so much Terrorists Attacks since the 9-11 that the Usage of FORCE has shown what the real Effect is - more Death and more Destruction. Today Iraq is the State of Terrorism and not the State of Democracy. And this Terror has spread across the Borders of Iraq to Europe and the rest of the World. Thanks mister Bush: Job Well Done! Mission Accomplished!

Glad to see that You think Bush is "great".
Well. has their been a 9/11 in America again? What about serial bombings?
NO! We have taken the fight to their door step in Iraq and soon we will take the fight into their houses and their will be no place for them to hide.
Iraq is in a state of terrorism, that is correct but who has imposed such a state? Do you see Coalition soldiers blowing themselves up in car bombs?
It is the radical Arabs themselves, only more arab blood will be spilled in their foolish crusade, if they are really brave they will work within Iraq's constituion and bring the reform and change they want but they cant because nobody want them and so mostly foreign fanatics fight in iraq.

Originally posted by Souljah
My side is Right for me an Right for the Things I belive in and the Values I Consider to be Important.

You are NOT the topic in this thread are you!

Somebody has Narcissus Complex!

Originally posted by Souljah
Have I insulted You in my Posts, Sir?

Yes! And also my country which is worse!


Originally posted by Souljah
AND WHO ARE YOU TO DECIDE IN WHAT WAY THEY WILL DIE?

It is not I but God who decides!

Originally posted by Souljah
Are you God or something?
Is America the HOLY Nation that spread the Word of GOD?
Is America Guided by Saint Michael the Archangel Himself?

Not God but we follow Gods will, Also Saint Michael has got nothing on the US military!


Originally posted by Souljah
www.rense.com...
www.commondreams.org...

If you can use Rense as a source to base your facts then that shows!

It is a bit ludacrious to call Fox Tv biased when you yourself show rense as a source dont you think?

Originally posted by Souljah
So you think you can EXPORT these 3 Values like McDonalds Restaurants?
Do you think ANY of those 3 Values is in Effect today in Iraq?

Their is no need to EXPORT these values, their are intrensic values all civilized people follow!

Yes, these values are slowly but surely being introduced in Iraq!


Originally posted by Souljah
Then why doesnt your Country TRY to make it Without WAR?
You know why?

Because if America doesnt do it who will? Will your nation take on the burden and solve this problem of terrorism? Is you nation capalbe of this? I am sure it cant!
No nation can except a coalition of Freedom loving nations that strive for democracy and seek to bring justice upon all those who commit acts of terrorism.

You insinuation about America being an Empire is totaly false!
An empire is a formed from colonizing other states, america never colonizes because it was a colony to begin with!

Originally posted by Souljah
Yes Ofcourse they DONT - thats why the Military Budget this Year was All Time High.
Where do YOu think this Money will go?

Where does the govenrment get all that money? From the tax payers!
Bush simply cant use money any way he wants to, he has to ask Congress and congress is very particular about where the money goes.
'Warprofiteers' - You make them out to be some pirates or something. They are just companies that sell stuff to the American military that is all, not some group of individuals that sit around scheeming about how to rip off Iraq!


Originally posted by Souljah
But when Wars STOP - these People run out of Business.
Meaning - they NEED Wars to Continue and to be Everlasting.

Not really, they still manufacture products that America sells to other nations and also supply spares and parts that are part of regualr non-combat duty.
Also they undertake upgrades and reaserch on new weapons systems, all this can more than support them .

Originally posted by Souljah


And the first one is kellogs, I think they were paid for supplying the Us military cereal or something!


Even when People dont Kill Each other, they will HAVE to Eat.
Meaning, that Kellogs wont run out of Business, as long as there are Hungry People around.

So how is this relevant?


Originally posted by Souljah
I just asked You and you have attacked me for that.
Whats your Problem - feel Threatened?

i think i understood what you insinuate by that question. You seem to have a complex against jews, do you fear them because they are smarter? Or are some racists who sees them as defiling?
Either way your question about me being a jew states that you feel only jews would support America or somesuch manic confabulation but that is not reality.
Threatened? No! more like disgusted at your sterotyping and your racial tone.



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