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In his article "Is patriotism a virtue?" (1984), the philosopher Alasdair MacIntyre addresses this question in a particularly subtle way. He first notes that most contemporary conceptions of morality insist on a kind of impartial blindness to accidental traits like national origin in the just treatment of our fellow humans—and therefore, that patriotism is inevitably not moral under these conceptions. MacIntyre goes on, however, to construct a sophisticated alternative conception of morality that would be compatible with patriotism.
[edit]
Patriotism for other countries?
History includes many cases of individuals who acted with impassioned selflessness on behalf of countries not their own. For example, the Marquis de Lafayette was a Frenchman who fought for the independence of the thirteen British colonies in America. The "Philhellenes," western Europeans who fought in the Greek War of Independence, are another example; as are the Americans who fought on the Allied side before the entry of their country into the First World War. Such cases call into question what we mean by "patriotism": for instance, was Lafayette an American patriot, or the Philhellenes Greek patriots?
Alasdair MacIntyre would claim that they were not; that these and similar cases are instances of idealism, but not of patriotism. Under this view, Lafayette was only devoted to the ideals of political liberty that underlay the American Revolution, but was not specifically patriotic for America. For MacIntyre, patriotism by definition can only be a preference for one's own country, not a preference for the ideals that a country is believed to stand for.
The opposite view is also widely held: for instance, many Americans who profess to be patriots would claim that their patriotism is not an arbitrary preference for America, but is rather is based on special virtues (for instance, "freedom"), that are specially, perhaps uniquely, possessed by America. Presumably, for such individuals, it would be quite coherent to claim that Lafayette was an American patriot, since he fought on behalf of (what are held to be) American virtues.
I venture to say that you spend your time in the rabbit hole. It has been stated by numerous people through various means of communication that Hussein was in fact responsible for a 7 digit count of killings.
But let us take your hundreds of thousands. I demand from you the same proof that you now demand. You do not have it, and you cannot find it! You will have to rely on propaganda put out by your state department and every other organization, for no person or organization had access to Iraq or Iraq’s files to know this.
You should be sorry, for the only pissing you did was in your own corn flakes.
as posted by seekerof
Pay attention.
Originally posted by cjf
'Probably' my foot.…..one such article commenting on this very topic:
By AlissaJ. Rubin, Los Angeles Times
….according to a detailed compilation and analysis of news reports released Tuesday by a pair of British-based groups opposed to the war….
Outside experts cautioned that because of the difficulty of gathering reliable information in Iraq and inevitable political biases, the information was almost certainly incomplete. But the high casualty figures indicate the stubbornness of the anti-coalition forces, said Anthony Cordesman of the Center for Strategic and International Studies, a Washington, D.C.-based think tank…..
…..He said reports on numbers of "killed" and "wounded" often blur together and that it is difficult to know "how many were really civilians."
(emph. added)
Link to Full Article (free site)
Even the posters article/link contains the proverbial ‘small print’:
“…but conceded that the data on which the projections were based was of ‘limited precision’”
Originally posted by Souljah
What the Heck is JINGOISTIC?
Here is a Song that Displays the Basic Meaning:
We don't want to fight
But, by Jingo, if we do,
We've got the ships,
We've got the men,
We've got the money, too
en.wikipedia.org...
During the 19th century in the United States, journalists called this attitude "spread-eagleism". This patriotic belligerence was intensified by the (apparently accidental) sinking of the Maine in Havana harbor that led to the Spanish-American War. "Jingoism" did not enter the U.S. vernacular until the 20th century.
Jingoism is a term describing chauvinistic patriotism, especially with regard to a hawkish political stance.
The term originated in Britain, introduced by Irish music-hall singer G. H. MacDermott at the London Pavilion during the diplomatic crisis of 1878, when Britain's Prime Minister Benjamin Disraeli convinced the Tsar to retreat from Bulgaria, restoring it and Macedonia to Ottoman rule. The chorus of a song by MacDermott and G. W. Hunt commonly sung in pubs at the time gave birth to the term. The bloodthirsty lyrics had the chorus:
We don't want to fight
But, by Jingo, if we do,
We've got the ships,
We've got the men,
We've got the money, too.
The expression "by Jingo" is apparently a minced oath that appeared rarely in print, as far back as the 17th century, a transparent euphemism for "by Jesus", but it has also been given origins in languages which would not have been very familiar in the British pub: a corrupted borrowed word from the Basque "Jianko", meaning "God".
Originally posted by Frosty
318 killed by terrorist attack?! Where did this come from. I've counted 150 within the past week(though not counted), that number is laughable. The 100,000 by lancet is bogus. Wasn't this the same group that was counting all casualties as kills?
1. US-led forces alone 9,270 - 37.3%
6. Predominantly criminal killings 8,935 - 35.9%
7. Unknown agents 2,731 - 11.0%
Originally posted by Seekerof
Its quite obvious that this report has not included those suicide attacks in the past few months or so.
Originally posted by Seekerof
Well then, how about *you* consider amending this reports findings and give us some up-to-date corrections to this reports number assertions.
Originally posted by deltaboy
The term originated in Britain, introduced by Irish music-hall singer G. H. MacDermott at the London Pavilion during the diplomatic crisis of 1878, when Britain's Prime Minister Benjamin Disraeli convinced the Tsar to retreat from Bulgaria, restoring it and Macedonia to Ottoman rule. The chorus of a song by MacDermott and G. W. Hunt commonly sung in pubs at the time gave birth to the term. The bloodthirsty lyrics had the chorus:
pretty good drawing and meaning to show they are willing to fight to defend and to defeat the Spanish. but i think u should look more into the definition of it.
Originally posted by Seekerof
Some realism and sense when placing your condemnations while spreading your world revolution message.
Originally posted by Souljah
Originally posted by deltaboy
well gee u think the patriotic Americans are thirsty for blood from the Spanish for the sinkin of Maine. aniways they call it Bloodthirsty in their view.
For someone who claims to be an old-timer on here it is quite obvious that either your head is purposefully kept well lodged in muck and mire or you love wearing blinders. Now what exactly what be your reaction to my showing you claims of millions? I doubt you will even acknowledge same, for you that would prove too embarrassing for your frail ego. Secondly, this is not about me providing proof, this is about you and your dismissal of the Iraqi dead and your flagrant skirting around my direct challenge to you to prove even the hundreds of thousands claim you made about Hussein. You have thus far failed to support your mundane arguments and spewed nothing but propaganda in an effort to adjudicate your own defenseless posturing.
Originally posted by SeekerofYou talk a good game, but how about back it up, k?
I asked you for links and sources, you have provided not one.
Provide or walk away
Testimony of Andrew Whitley (HRW) 12/1991- Middle East Watch has not received permission to conduct a human rights mission in either Iraq or Kuwait. (Indeed, Iraq has not allowed any humanitarian organizations into Kuwait.
www.fas.org...
The Iraqi National Accord (INA), headed by Iyad Alawi, consisted primarily of military and security officers who had defected from Iraq and who were perceived to have residual influence over military and security elites around Saddam. The INA's prospects for success appeared to brighten in August 1995 when Saddam's son- in-law Husayn Kamil al-Majid-architect of Iraq's weapons of mass destruction programs -defected to Jordan.
-The fall of Saddam Hussein saw the Iraqi Communist Party (ICP) re-emerge after being banned for 35 years.
it operated underground and from the Kurdish enclave in the north of Iraq during the rule of Saddam Hussein.
news.bbc.co.uk...
Can I expect any time say within the next 5 posts of you’re your proof that this was in fact accepted as truth?
Do you know of any other organization that is not affiliated with any government that has satellites that took pictures of those terrorist camps in Iraq, since your not buying that the CIA took them, documented them, and that people captured inside Iraq and at Gitmo have substantiated that indeed there were terrorist camps in Iraq and that indeed terrorists were being trained in them? If you do, provide them or keeping rambling.
My you certainly are easy to unnerve, so much so that you have to resort to borrowed responses.
Stay focused here, your rambling.
And when can I expect your demand that Guantanamo Bay be bombed and overtaken?
Of course not. Personally, it should continue to be filled to the brim.
Stop with the flatulence already! And don’t be shy, if you want to warn me publicly then do so, and do so by stating what it is that you are masking in that response of yours. Your veiled threat is just another defensive posturing for your position being chewed up and spit out, and supported only by any trumped up charge you can concoct. Now I will repeat; you have made three wrongful claims as to me which violates the terms of service of this board. Now be a good moderator and publicly apologize for publicly breaking the very rules you are supposed to be enforcing, for I see nothing in that TOS which states that moderators are exempt from the laws.
You might want to heed what you are so claiming that I am doing there, mate. Assertions and claims are made within ATS every single day, and could be thought to be in violation of those "terms of service" you so decided to pull into this discussion.
Originally posted by Souljah
Why CANT I pledge Allegiance to Myself?
I also Pledge to RESIST!
Originally posted by Souljah
Well Its the ONLY Report about the Civilan Casualties.
Is there any other "Official Report" so we can Compare?
Does the US Army make an Official Report? I belive they just care about the dead US Soldiers, and they even LIE About those!
Originally posted by Souljah
Speldid Job!
Saddam is Out and a new Terror is IN!
Originally posted by Souljah
The "Process of Eliminating Terrorists" is basicly Creating Terrorists, just like the alleged War on Terror. So, I am sorry to report to you, but everytime an Iraqi Civilan Dies and everytime an US Soldier Dies the Corporations makes More Money. Nice huh?
Originally posted by Souljah
The Iraqi Police consists of ONLY two members of Religious/Ethnic Groups in Iraq - the Insurgents consist of the remaining one. That is like arming the two opposing sides and waiting for them to start killing each other.
Originally posted by Souljah
But sooner or later these 3 involved Sides will start to pull to their own side and start to tear the country apart. Kurds want an independant state of Kurdistan. And I belive both other Parties have same Ideas about their "Independant State".
Originally posted by Souljah
What about when "Smart Bombs" kill Innocent Women and Children?
Is that any Better?
Or in that case you just call it "Collateral Damage" and the Debate is OVER?
Originally posted by Souljah
If you dont know the Abyss between Shia and Sunni Islam goes way, way, WAY Back before Saddam even Existed and before a US Marines was Standing on Iraqi Sand.
Originally posted by Souljah
OH, and what Higher Moral Ground is that?
To Follow the current Presidents Lies and Deceptions in this War on Terror?
Originally posted by Souljah
Are you saying that the People of Iraq are not Civilized?
Originally posted by Souljah
And there is ALOT of Mindless Fanaticism in the Ranks of current US Goverment and in the War Profiteers that has "Bought" it in order to make Profit out of Wars and make Money from Killing.
Originally posted by Souljah
You think the War Profiteers give a Damn about Mercy and Compassion for the Suffering Iraqi People?
Hallliburton Wins New $4.9Billion Iraq Contract