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25,000 civilians killed since Iraq invasion, says report

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posted on Jul, 20 2005 @ 11:00 AM
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Originally posted by soulforge
Please, please, please, to those on the left. Enlighten me.

I don't think Bush has ever said that directly. But Cheney certainly has made public references between 9/11 and Iraq. (Interestingly, when I put "Cheney +link +9/11 +iraq" into my search engine, it refused to return the results. It said "oops! We ran into a temporary problem while performing your search. Please try your search again" - Over and over again. So I had to get creative.
)

cnn

In September, Cheney said Iraq had been "the geographic base of the terrorists who have had us under assault now for many years, but most especially on 9/11."


And, it doesn't have to be an overt connection. It's clear that this administration wants to connect Iraq to 9/11 whether they say it outright or not or whether you objectively see it or not. Observe:
Clip


There's a new segment of society...

Pop Activists. These are people who don't know much about History, Politics, or Government, yet manage to find something to protest. A bunch of 20-somethings riled up about a cause but without a lot of facts.


Although I agree with you that this segment exists, I assure you sir, that I am not one of them. I haven't seen 20-something in as many years and I can tell you just about anything you'd like to know about our government and how it is supposed to work. I have my rep and senators in my email address book. And although I don't like the word 'activist' I suppose in a way, I am one. I take action for a cause. I prefer to think of myself as a responsible US citizen, thank you.


So to write off these statements that don't agree with your line of reasoning as ramblings of immature pop-activists is simply, well, incorrect in this case.




posted on Jul, 20 2005 @ 11:01 AM
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1. US-led forces alone 9,270 - 37.3%
2. Anti-occupation forces alone 2,353 - 9.5%
3. Both US-led and anti-occupation forces involved 623 - 2.5%
4. MoH-defined ‘military actions’ 635 - 2.5%
5. MoH-defined ‘terrorist attacks’ 318 - 1.3%
6. Predominantly criminal killings 8,935 - 35.9%
7. Unknown agents 2,731 - 11.0%

Total deaths 24,865 - 100.0%

reports.iraqbodycount.org...



posted on Jul, 20 2005 @ 11:07 AM
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I thereby pull you from my "Pop Activist" roll and place you in the "Worthy Opposition" roll. I can respect anyone who can back up his agrument with facts, figure, and quotes, and not emotion and hate speak.



[edit on 7/20/2005 by soulforge]



posted on Jul, 20 2005 @ 11:09 AM
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Originally posted by Souljah
Are Those Questions Directed at Me?
#4. I Pledge Allegiance to the TRUTH, FREEDOM and to MYSELF.

Well isnt that typical of the left wing haters, MYSELF!


Originally posted by Souljah
What I found Interseting is the Percentage of the Casualties and who is Responsible for them.
If you ask me, I belive that the Number is MUCH Higher then this and its probably really close to the 100.000 mentioned before.

Well, you are mistaken, the figures you have shown are not in anysense statistical, neither do they reperesnet any actual facts, we hear every day of the 100s of people who die due to terrorist bombings and yet that accounts for only a meger 9%!
Those figures are laughable!
The figure maybe higher but the fact is these terrorists are killing many more people than the Coalition forces could possibly kill, it is to them you should ask for a let up in destruction!
The coaliton forces are held accountable, if proven guilty but who holds these terrorists accountable, no one! So these are these people are the one who commit inhuman crimes, they are the ones who go into crowded areas and blow themselves up killing innocent children and women, not American troops mind you! For what? if they were truly virtuous they would attack only american bases and minimise causalty to civilians but we dont see that happening!
Go and look today! Another bomb blast in Iraq, hundreds of people died again today needlesly, how many Iraqis have the coalition killed? None!
That shows!



posted on Jul, 20 2005 @ 11:10 AM
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6. Predominantly criminal killings 8,935 - 35.9%


Just not buying it. There is a significant disparity in these numbers.
Probably 45% to 60% of the above numbers probably fit realistically within the "MoH-defined military actions" and "MoH-defined terrorist attacks."

I would definately be interested in knowing how they determined these cateogries, most definately.





seekerof



posted on Jul, 20 2005 @ 11:16 AM
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I think those of you looking to clear the US from these deaths no matter the number, should reflect back on any positions you may have taken here or elsewhere touting the unconfirmed and totally unknowable millions said to have been killed by Hussein, for I am fairly certain that you did not seek or demand proof of said numbers just as long as it made Hussein look like Iraq was deserving of a pounding.

There is no denying that all of the deaths (usual criminal activity excluded) being caused in Iraq since the first bomb landed on Iraqi soil is as a direct and undeniable result of the invasion.

There was no terrorist activity in Iraq aimed at ousting Hussein's government prior to invasion!

There were no insurgent attacks of any sort against Iraqi people in Husseins last 10 years!

There were no suicide bombers willing to give their lives for Allah during Hussein's reign!

There were no foreign fighters sneaking into the country during Hussein's reign!

There was no wholesale destruction of any village; town or city from any bomb during Hussein's last 10 years of reign!

There were no rampart abductions of men, women and children for ransom money during Hussein's reign!

And to compare the amount of deaths of non-terrorist criminal activity as being low compared to the US is irrational. In 2000, The US had a population of 278 million where 9,000 such crimes as offered equates to a per capita of 1 per every 30,889. Iraq's population was (guessed) at 23 million where the same 9,000 would equate to a 1 per 2,555 or 12 times that of the US. Equalizing that means that the US' incidence of crime would have had to be 108,000 to compare.

Iraq today is worse off than it was 2 and one-half years ago, and while the war apologists are busy trying to stave off the drop in support for the sham of a war, they miss the big picture entirely, because the Iraqi armed forces of today are turning into exactly that what the Fedayeen was accused of being.



posted on Jul, 20 2005 @ 11:19 AM
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Originally posted by IAF101
Well isnt that typical of the left wing haters, MYSELF!


So, what is wrong with That?

You dont Pledge Allegience to YOURSELF?



Well, you are mistaken, the figures you have shown are not in anysense statistical, neither do they reperesnet any actual facts, we hear every day of the 100s of people who die due to terrorist bombings and yet that accounts for only a meger 9%!

Well Sir, the Report is Infront of You.

Why dont You accept it as it is?

Are you too Proud to Accept it?



The figure maybe higher but the fact is these terrorists are killing many more people than the Coalition forces could possibly kill, it is to them you should ask for a let up in destruction!

The Coalition Forces have Done their Job and the Numbers are speaking for themselves.

And the Terrorists - well, if you had not Noticed YET, Iraq is on the brink of Civil War, a Civil War that was brought to these People by the Great Coalition Forces.

You wanted it - now Deal with it!



The coaliton forces are held accountable, if proven guilty but who holds these terrorists accountable, no one! So these are these people are the one who commit inhuman crimes, they are the ones who go into crowded areas and blow themselves up killing innocent children and women, not American troops mind you! For what? if they were truly virtuous they would attack only american bases and minimise causalty to civilians but we dont see that happening!

Again, if you had not noticed YET, the Iraqi People are on the brink of Civil War, with US Troops caught in the Cross-Fire.

You wanna play Cops - now is the chance, since Brothers will Start killing each other on a massive scale sooner or later.

This is just a Prelude - cant you see that?



Go and look today! Another bomb blast in Iraq, hundreds of people died again today needlesly, how many Iraqis have the coalition killed? None!
That shows!

That shows WHAT?

Tell me?

Can you say, C I V I L W A R ?



posted on Jul, 20 2005 @ 11:45 AM
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Originally posted by SomewhereinBetween
I think those of you looking to clear the US from these deaths no matter the number, should reflect back on any positions you may have taken here or elsewhere touting the unconfirmed and totally unknowable millions said to have been killed by Hussein, for I am fairly certain that you did not seek or demand proof of said numbers just as long as it made Hussein look like Iraq was deserving of a pounding.

Umm, no.
Your running off into wonderland here.
It was hundreds of thousands, not "millions," k?



There is no denying that all of the deaths (usual criminal activity excluded) being caused in Iraq since the first bomb landed on Iraqi soil is as a direct and undeniable result of the invasion.

Are you aware that over 43,000+ innocent people die every year in the US due to accidents?
Are you aware that over 25,000+ innocent children die a day from hunger?
No, no one is trying to dispute that there were innocents killed in Iraq.
What is being disputed here is the findings and categorizing of this report.
Pay attention.



posted on Jul, 20 2005 @ 11:49 AM
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Oh my God.

You have convinced me.

We had no right to go into Iraq. Saddam Hussein was a legitimately elected president that only wanted to do right by his people. He was an honorable person. All of the deaths since the war are our fault. If we had not invaded there would be no terrorists blowing up civilians, no insugency (except for those darn kurds), no suicide bombers killing Iraqis. No villages blowing up (again, except for those darn kurds) No abduction of women and children, except with government fiat.

I think we should start bringing our troops home today! We could have a complete pullout in less than a month. Reinstate Hussein, and pay him reparations for the evil the US had sown. Iraq and its people will be much better off under his guidance than ours.

Nope...

I just can't get my head around that idea. It's all so simplistic. Life is too complicated for that easy an answer. For all of the fire and brimstone of the opposition, they state little in the way of alternatives.

Souljah, we need your help. YES, Iraq is royally screwed up, but we cannot go back in time. How do we fix it? What can we do to make things better? If it's about the people of Iraq, then tell us how to make their lives better? Quote statistics and innuendo all you want, but do more than oppose. Impeaching Bush makes no Iraqis' life any easier. It only vindicates your opposition.

My point on the crime figures was that, by all estimates Iraq today IS about 12 times more dangerous than the US, except for some neighborhoods in Detroit.



posted on Jul, 20 2005 @ 12:12 PM
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OMG I read something most interesting in the report.

The report states that they only have age and gender data on approx. 13,000 civilians. So HALF of the 25,000 have no data associated with them, they are only a casualty number. Maybe I'm a little off here, but if there's no body, how is one counted as dead? Hearsay!?!

One of the Sections is titled "THE KILLERS" all in caps and with a red border.

Part of their definition of civilian is "Iraqis forced by immediate circumstances to use arms when strictly unavoidable in order to preserve life". So, an insurgent COULD fit that definition.

This is sensationanist propaganda posing as information.





[edit on 7/20/2005 by soulforge]



posted on Jul, 20 2005 @ 12:13 PM
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Originally posted by soulforge
I just can't get my head around that idea. It's all so simplistic.

Yes, that is too simplistic.


YES, Iraq is royally screwed up, but we cannot go back in time. How do we fix it? ... Impeaching Bush makes no Iraqis' life any easier.

True, but I don't think we can do anything to make the Iraqis lives better as long as this administration is in power. Things are going their way. They're not willing to do something different.

Ideally we would have had better plans and strategies BEFORE we went in, but like you said, spilled milk (or blood, in this case).

I'm glad Saddam's out of there. He was a tyrant and murderer. BUT the country was more stable (if dictatorial) when he was in power. It just seems to me that we had so many other options of action to take. Going into Iraq to fight global terrorism was like treating a car accident victim whose wrist is gushing blood by putting a bandaid on the boo-boo on their leg. It's just so frustrating that we didn't take all these resources that have now been spent and do something that would have actually made a dent in the safety of Americans. This war has not.

What to do now? I have gobs of ideas but sadly, I don't have the president's ear.


My point on the crime figures was that, by all estimates Iraq today IS about 12 times more dangerous than the US, except for some neighborhoods in Detroit.

Wow...



posted on Jul, 20 2005 @ 12:20 PM
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Originally posted by Souljah

Originally posted by IAF101
Well isnt that typical of the left wing haters, MYSELF!


So, what is wrong with That?

You dont Pledge Allegience to YOURSELF?

NO!
Shows that you know nothing of what democracy and freedom is all about!
How can you pledge allegience to yourself? Thats like saying i'm selfish and am going to do everything thats in my interest!
You know nothing about what allegience is, you pledge allegience to something else like a nation, an ideology, a party, a group etc not yourself!
Maybe since you arent from a free country you dont understand our values, but that is understandable!

Originally posted by Souljah
Well Sir, the Report is Infront of You.
Why dont You accept it as it is?
Are you too Proud to Accept it?

What makes you think im going to accept any peice of slander that is spewed forth on the net? Do you think i am as gullible as you?
Afraid not!
The report is bunk!, It is not an official report, it says so itself!

Also it says that its sources are from news reports! So the validity of the news reports is left to its descrition, wow! I'm convinced already!


Originally posted by Souljah
The Coalition Forces have Done their Job and the Numbers are speaking for themselves.

They have done their job! Saddam is out! That was what they had set out to do and have done it spectaularly.
Terrorism took over ane they are now in the process of eliminating it also.
The "figures" as you say arent even an accurate representation as the article says so what makes you sure they are?

Also the numbers are severly biased as they count everybody as a civilian and their is no discretion on whehter they are terrorists or innocents!
Again this shows that your source is not credible!

Originally posted by Souljah
And the Terrorists - well, if you had not Noticed YET, Iraq is on the brink of Civil War, a Civil War that was brought to these People by the Great Coalition Forces.

Civil war? With whom, the iraqi police against the jehadis? That isnt a civil war that is a conflict between the Democraticaly elected Govenrmnets police force against a group of armed fanatical extreemists that are hell bent on death!
Shows where your values are, if you can call this a "civil war" !


Originally posted by Souljah
You wanted it - now Deal with it!

The coalition wanted to oust Saddam and they have and brought him to justice as well, so I guess we are "dealing" pretty well!

The terrorists are killing their own people and thats fine for the coalition as more iraqis die everyday due to theor own fanatics actions and they grow to hate their own religion more adn more as each day passes! So the coalition wins again!



Originally posted by Souljah
You wanna play Cops - now is the chance, since Brothers will Start killing each other on a massive scale sooner or later.

This aint the ghetto boy! Their aint no "brothers" !

Well, thats the newly elected Iraqis problem, if iraqis are killing each other isnt it! WE had come to bring Saddam to justice and secure Iraqs future we have done that! So out "Cops" have done their job.
We grabbed Saddam by the neck and he awaits a hearing!



Originally posted by Souljah


Go and look today! Another bomb blast in Iraq, hundreds of people died again today needlesly, how many Iraqis have the coalition killed? None!
That shows!

That shows WHAT?
Tell me?

Since you are not aware of even the basic values of a civilised community, I will enlighten you on this respect!
Firstly, killing of civilians especially women and children shows that the terrorists are desperate and they will stoop to any depth to carry out their agenda of destruction and death.
Secondly, these terrorists are so intent on violence that kiling even their own kind doesnt bother them and they continue to do so with religious fevor everyday.
Thirdly, as the coalition isnt in the business of killing women and children they have automaticaly proven themselves to be on a higher moral ground, which these terrorists can never hope to acheive!
Lastly, these actions show to any member of a civilised free society that the actions of these terrorists are nothing short of demonic and shows their agenda more clearly than any of their propaganda, it shows their desperation, their irrationality and their sheer mindless fanaticism that they are brought up in.
This to a rational person exposed to civilization and the priciples of freedom, justice and human dignity shows that the Iraqi insurgents are in the truest sense of the term "EVIL" and deserve no mercy or compassion for their henious crimes agaisnt the innocent and their own kind!



posted on Jul, 20 2005 @ 12:39 PM
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"Thirdly, as the coalition isnt in the business of killing women and children they have automaticaly proven themselves to be on a higher moral ground, which these terrorists can never hope to acheive! "

So no women or children have died as a result of coalition forces? Might want to rephrase the above statement...whether or not there's an intent to deliberately victimise women and children isn't the point - the point is, it's happening.

There are casualties on both "sides", the vast majority of whom would have never become casualties had this entire debacle never occurred (or at the very least, happened with a lot more input from certain nations) - but that doesn't change the bottom line.

And the bottom line is:

Pulling out now would make things 100 times worse. No, I don't think we (ahem) should have gone in the way we did, nor using the reasons we did; but we're there now, and we've a responsibility to at least try and make things better. What's painfully obvious is you can't force democracy; not least on a population who are polarised in their opinions of the coalition.

The presence of the coalition obviously isn't stopping terrorism, by any definition of the term. At this point, I'm not sure what would put an end to the slaughter - but I am sure that our presence there is simply contributing to an environment where terrorism breeds.

That is the tragedy.



posted on Jul, 20 2005 @ 01:05 PM
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318 killed by terrorist attack?!
Where did this come from. I've counted 150 within the past week(though not counted), that number is laughable. The 100,000 by lancet is bogus. Wasn't this the same group that was counting all casualties as kills?



posted on Jul, 20 2005 @ 02:33 PM
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Originally posted by SeekerofLook at how easily you become unraveled. You aggressively demand proof of these dead Iraq numbers, and when it is turned on you are reduced to blathering.

Umm, no.
Your running off into wonderland here.
It was hundreds of thousands, not "millions," k?
I venture to say that you spend your time in the rabbit hole. It has been stated by numerous people through various means of communication that Hussein was in fact responsible for a 7 digit count of killings. And I am certain that ATS members are no exception. But let us take your hundreds of thousands. I demand from you the same proof that you now demand. You do not have it, and you cannot find it! You will have to rely on propaganda put out by your state department and every other organization, for no person or organization had access to Iraq or Iraq’s files to know this. In case you missed my point while you went off on defensive mode, one should not be ridiculing these death counts and calling for proof if one did not exercise the same requirement for Hussein’s reign. Furthermore, you may not like the body count or the allocation, however, the analysis since the US and Britain refuses to part with such details, Iraq is no longer quite the secret place it was before, and to deny that a tally based on the media reports of the daily numbers is correct is to also deny the tally of US dead as put out by your military.


Are you aware that over 43,000+ innocent people die every year in the US due to accidents?
Are you aware that over 25,000+ innocent children die a day from hunger?
No, no one is trying to dispute that there were innocents killed in Iraq.
What is being disputed here is the findings and categorizing of this report.
Pay attention.


cjf

posted on Jul, 20 2005 @ 02:37 PM
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Originally posted by Seekerof.....cause quite frankly, the majority were probably insurgents and freedom fighters, that were killed in action, who were then categorized under "civilain" deaths.


'Probably' my foot.…..one such article commenting on this very topic:



By AlissaJ. Rubin, Los Angeles Times

….according to a detailed compilation and analysis of news reports released Tuesday by a pair of British-based groups opposed to the war….

Outside experts cautioned that because of the difficulty of gathering reliable information in Iraq and inevitable political biases, the information was almost certainly incomplete. But the high casualty figures indicate the stubbornness of the anti-coalition forces, said Anthony Cordesman of the Center for Strategic and International Studies, a Washington, D.C.-based think tank…..
…..He said reports on numbers of "killed" and "wounded" often blur together and that it is difficult to know "how many were really civilians."
(emph. added)

Link to Full Article (free site)


Even the posters article/link contains the proverbial ‘small print’:



“…but conceded that the data on which the projections were based was of ‘limited precision’”


However there is no doubt about one thing the 'stats' as presented are bunk, inaccurate and askew.
.
.



posted on Jul, 20 2005 @ 02:43 PM
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so in reality we should not believe in ani of the Iraqi casualty reports since the Americans and the British knows that in the fighting u cant tell who got killed, and it wastes resources to find out who got kill. presenting the casualties numbers for Iraq is like presenting the number of stars in the universe. its all political and to make people aware wat is goin on in Iraq. cant tell who is civilian and insurgent thanks to the insurgents who prefer to not wear uniforms because it reveals them as enemies to the Americans (of course).



posted on Jul, 20 2005 @ 03:33 PM
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Originally posted by IAF101
How can you pledge allegience to yourself? Thats like saying i'm selfish and am going to do everything thats in my interest!
You know nothing about what allegience is, you pledge allegience to something else like a nation, an ideology, a party, a group etc not yourself!
Maybe since you arent from a free country you dont understand our values, but that is understandable!

Why CANT I pledge Allegiance to Myself?

I am like a Nation, an Ideology, a Party and a Group Combined!


Actually I am from a Free Country, I really have no Idea what You think of me and what you think where I am from.

I also Pledge to RESIST!



What makes you think im going to accept any peice of slander that is spewed forth on the net? Do you think i am as gullible as you?
Afraid not!
The report is bunk!, It is not an official report, it says so itself!

Also it says that its sources are from news reports! So the validity of the news reports is left to its descrition, wow!

Well Its the ONLY Report about the Civilan Casualties.

Is there any other "Official Report" so we can Compare?

Does the US Army make an Official Report? I belive they just care about the dead US Soldiers, and they even LIE About those!



They have done their job! Saddam is out! That was what they had set out to do and have done it spectaularly.
Terrorism took over ane they are now in the process of eliminating it also.
The "figures" as you say arent even an accurate representation as the article says so what makes you sure they are?


Speldid Job!

Saddam is Out and a new Terror is IN!

The "Process of Eliminating Terrorists" is basicly Creating Terrorists, just like the alleged War on Terror. So, I am sorry to report to you, but everytime an Iraqi Civilan Dies and everytime an US Soldier Dies the Corporations makes More Money. Nice huh? Thats your "War on Terror" - should be called "Business and Terror".



Civil war? With whom, the iraqi police against the jehadis? That isnt a civil war that is a conflict between the Democraticaly elected Govenrmnets police force against a group of armed fanatical extreemists that are hell bent on death!

The Iraqi Police consists of ONLY two members of Religious/Ethnic Groups in Iraq - the Insurgents consist of the remaining one. That is like arming the two opposing sides and waiting for them to start killing each other.

Civil War is already grippin Hold of Iraq, wheter you Like it or NOT!



This aint the ghetto boy! Their aint no "brothers" !

Well, thats the newly elected Iraqis problem, if iraqis are killing each other isnt it! WE had come to bring Saddam to justice and secure Iraqs future we have done that! So out "Cops" have done their job.
We grabbed Saddam by the neck and he awaits a hearing!


I ment Brothers - as Shia, Sunni and Kurdish Muslims that CAN Live togather in Peace.

But sooner or later these 3 involved Sides will start to pull to their own side and start to tear the country apart. Kurds want an independant state of Kurdistan. And I belive both other Parties have same Ideas about their "Independant State".



Firstly, killing of civilians especially women and children shows that the terrorists are desperate and they will stoop to any depth to carry out their agenda of destruction and death.

What about when "Smart Bombs" kill Innocent Women and Children?

Is that any Better?

Or in that case you just call it "Collateral Damage" and the Debate is OVER?



Secondly, these terrorists are so intent on violence that kiling even their own kind doesnt bother them and they continue to do so with religious fevor everyday.

If you dont know the Abyss between Shia and Sunni Islam goes way, way, WAY Back before Saddam even Existed and before a US Marines was Standing on Iraqi Sand.



Thirdly, as the coalition isnt in the business of killing women and children they have automaticaly proven themselves to be on a higher moral ground, which these terrorists can never hope to acheive!

OH, and what Higher Moral Ground is that?

To Follow the current Presidents Lies and Deceptions in this War on Terror?

Again - what is the Difference between the Dead Women and Children by an American Bombs and by Terrorists Suicide Attacks?



Lastly, these actions show to any member of a civilised free society that the actions of these terrorists are nothing short of demonic and shows their agenda more clearly than any of their propaganda, it shows their desperation, their irrationality and their sheer mindless fanaticism that they are brought up in.

Are you saying that the People of Iraq are not Civilized?

And there is ALOT of Mindless Fanaticism in the Ranks of current US Goverment and in the War Profiteers that has "Bought" it in order to make Profit out of Wars and make Money from Killing.

War is Business.

War is Stocks.

War is Money.



This to a rational person exposed to civilization and the priciples of freedom, justice and human dignity shows that the Iraqi insurgents are in the truest sense of the term "EVIL" and deserve no mercy or compassion for their henious crimes agaisnt the innocent and their own kind!

Priciples of Freedom, Justice and Human Dignity have NOTHING to do with War in Iraq.

You think the War Profiteers give a Damn about Mercy and Compassion for the Suffering Iraqi People?

Nope.

Here is a New Headline for You:

Hallliburton Wins New $4.9Billion Iraq Contract

Great Huh? The More the War Lasts the More Money they make!

YEeeeHAaaaW!

Good Ol' Western Capitalism in Full Effect!



posted on Jul, 20 2005 @ 04:14 PM
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posted by Benevolent Heretic
don't think Bush has ever said that directly. But Cheney certainly has made public references between 9/11 and Iraq. (Interestingly, when I put "Cheney +link +9/11 +iraq" into my search engine, it refused to return the results. It said "oops! We ran into a temporary problem while performing your search. Please try your search again" - Over and over again. So I had to get creative. )


Here is a link:

www.boston.com...

Yes, Cheney and Rumsfeld have said it many times when trying to justify the war. I've seen Bush saying that Saddam was sponsoring AlQaeda. So he is also indirectly saying it (assuming Al Qaeda is responsible for 9/11)...

What is wrong with most people here? I don't understand... If someboduy starts a very reasonable thread like that, there is always somebody saying:

"You are an American hater.You are spreading muslim propaganda. It is all lies. America is helping Iraq become a democracy..."

What is this ill born patriotism? People, patriotism is wrong. Actually admittiing being a patriot, is shameful...Where are the ideas for globalism, for racial tolerance, etc.?Every life is precious, no?

When a country is in chaos, patriotism is born. -- Lao Tzu

Patriotism is just a card that is played to make people support war criminals authorities without questioning their actions. unfortunately, there are people buying it. Evgen the Congress bought it, voting the "Patriot Act"...



posted on Jul, 20 2005 @ 04:25 PM
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Originally posted by Malkut

What is this ill born patriotism? People, patriotism is wrong. Actually admittiing being a patriot, is shameful...Where are the ideas for globalism, for racial tolerance, etc.?Every life is precious, no?


patriotism does not have to be shameful, and in part people who loves their country, pretty much have the right to express it. if a person considers himself a patriot u gonna tell him that he should be ashame?


When a country is in chaos, patriotism is born. -- Lao Tzu


pretty bad quote since patriotism does not born from chaos all the time.


Patriotism is just a card that is played to make people support war criminals authorities without questioning their actions. unfortunately, there are people buying it. Evgen the Congress bought it, voting the "Patriot Act"...


patriotism does not always involved in wars. for example the New England Patriots.
, but u can just be a patriot even wen not a war.

en.wikipedia.org...


Patriotism is a feeling of love and devotion to one's own homeland (patria, the land of one's fathers). This article surveys the concept of patriotism from the viewpoints of history, politics, ethics, and biology.



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