Seems that most westerners are still misreading China

As a Chinese living in north america, I feel most westerners are still misreading China. For example,
1. China is now a super power
So far I don't think so. Most people in China, especially the north west and south west parts, are still very poor. If you experienced the misery famine age of China 20 years ago then you will know what we Chinese really need, a peaceful and rich country. The character and the central idea of
philosophy of Chinese is toleration, which means most likely(maybe 99%) China will never be an aggressive country.

2. Taiwan & Tibet problems
Since thousands or hundreds of years ago(Sorry, it is always very difficult to remember all the important events during the 5,000 years history of China, that is why I "hate" the history course in middle school^_^), Taiwan and Tibet have already been a part of China. They should be civil problems of China and no irrelevant to the western countries. Just think about if Hawaii or Alaska is independent what will the U.S people do, then you will understand the willing of Chinese to get Taiwan back.

3. Democracy, Human rights
I believe it is the most important point that every western countries try to criticise China. However it depends on how do you define democracy and human rights.
During the 30 years in China, I never heard or saw anyone, including my family members, friends, classmates, colleagues and the friends/classmates..of them, has been caught or put to prison by assulting China government.
Of course I have to admit it is still a little bit difficult(but possible) to criticise the China government in public, but there are already many articles on the magazine or newpaper criticising some actions of government.

Compared with the "democracy" of US, it is very interesting to find that old Bush and young Bush are both elected to presidents. It means that in US only the guys from rich and powerful family can have the chance to be leaders. Nevertheless when we take a look at China's leaders, we can find all of them come from the normal or even poor families, like Chairman Mao, Deng Xiao Ping, ChairMan Deng and even the current Chairman Hu( Mr. Hu graduated from the Tshinghua university, which means he was the top 0.00001% student at that time).

4. Chinese people have a negative attitude to western countries
I can say 90% wrong. Chinese people will never forget the help from US, Canada and many other countries during WWII. The story of flying tiger aerocade from USA and Mr. BaiQiuEn(forget his english name) from Canada has been written in the textbook of elementary school in China.

Currently Chinese can accept both eastern and western culture. On the other hand, it seems that the invading of western culture are kind of successful :-)
With the help of internet and globalized economy, the chinese now watch the same movies/DVD , read the same best selling books and listen to same CD as what westerners do.
Most families in China's middle/big cities have DSL/Cable to access internet (I could even get a 10M extreme high speed internet at home before I left China) and there are more than 300 million cell phone customers using the most advanced communication tools.

I can say that what Chinese know about western countries are much more than what western countries know about China. So please don't only trust what you read on the books or newspaper of western countries, go to visit China and eventually you will find out a real China yourself.

Sorry, it is my first time to post an atricile here and my english is not good enough to express my ideas very clearly and exactly. But I think many people here are also familiar with China, please feel free to add any comments



[edit on 20-7-2005 by HenryXY]

Welcome to ATS.

Interesting post. If I may ask a few questions of you:

What is your age? sex? occupation? current location? level of schooling?

I think most Westerners agree that China is without a doubt the next super power ( or at least the next big power ) , not necessarily already one , but well on its way to becoming a superpower. China now reminds me of the USA of the 1950's . A major world manufacturer of goods and products. Once the Chinese popultaion get used to the increased living standards they will no longer wish to do menail manual manufacturing jobs and labor and China will learn ( just as the USA did ) that all good things come to pass. It just may take awhile.

Thanks for your post

around 30, male, IT engineer. Bachelor degree(in China)
Now things are different than 1950's.
At that time there was no another superpower like current US in the world.

Originally posted by Alias Jones
Welcome to ATS.

Interesting post. If I may ask a few questions of you:

What is your age? sex? occupation? current location? level of schooling?

I think most Westerners agree that China is without a doubt the next super power ( or at least the next big power ) , not necessarily already one , but well on its way to becoming a superpower. China now reminds me of the USA of the 1950's . A major world manufacturer of goods and products. Once the Chinese popultaion get used to the increased living standards they will no longer wish to do menail manual manufacturing jobs and labor and China will learn ( just as the USA did ) that all good things come to pass. It just may take awhile.

Thanks for your post

[edit on 20-7-2005 by HenryXY]

Of course, we know that many of the chinese people are nice. But many are depressed that such a mighty nation is been controlled by the totalitarian communist leadership. Sometimes, I find it disgusting that the CCP is distorting history, and is exercising propaganda on fellow chinese people on a large scale. How can Tibet be part of China in the past when i remember that the territory of China only consist of the east of the current PRC in ancient maps?

I'm an overseas chinese too, but i'll like to take an objective view. We know that the main difference between mainland and Taiwan is that they are separated by the civil war and have their own governments. Can i compare this to North and South Korea or East and West Germany? And they claim they pose no threat to anyone in the region with their military built-up. I did remember a certain party claiming to nuke ROC as a last resort. Taiwan is no way bound to PRC.
Anyway China has a promising furture and i hope nothing bad happens to her.

First, it is an ancient map about 2,000 years ago. At that time there was no US, no Australia, and even the land of Russia was much smaller than now. However,more than 80% of China's current land was already displayed on it.

Second , according to this map, looks like at that time half Korea and parts of Vitnam, Tailand, India, Russia were also parts of China. Based on your opinion, China should take all of them back instead of TaiWan?

How about a China map 5,00 years ago(neither too new nor too old) ?

Originally posted by NotheRaGe
Of course, we know that many of the chinese people are nice. But many are depressed that such a mighty nation is been controlled by the totalitarian communist leadership. Sometimes, I find it disgusting that the CCP is distorting history, and is exercising propaganda on fellow chinese people on a large scale. How can Tibet be part of China in the past when i remember that the territory of China only consist of the east of the current PRC in ancient maps?

I'm an overseas chinese too, but i'll like to take an objective view. We know that the main difference between mainland and Taiwan is that they are separated by the civil war and have their own governments. Can i compare this to North and South Korea or East and West Germany? And they claim they pose no threat to anyone in the region with their military built-up.

I did remember a certain party claiming to nuke ROC as a last resort. Taiwan is no way bound to PRC.
Anyway China has a promising furture and i hope nothing bad happens to her.

[edit on 20-7-2005 by HenryXY]

[edit on 20-7-2005 by HenryXY]

[edit on 20-7-2005 by HenryXY]

Henry welcome to ATS. It is great to see some Chinese come here to help us understand the politics of their country. I am always interested in learning foreign policy through that country's people. I hope more threads open dialog between our countries. Thanks for posting

I believe a big part of the problem arises from misinformation ...

China(the people, not the government) simply want the option to choose, the freedom to live and make choices, it really isn't about wallstreet or any of that crap ..

I don't understand the fears of elder leaders,
the truth is that they keep worrying about the past, as if it's going to reinact itself.... but this type of thinking is preventative of progression.

Revolution, revolution ... all it is, is old people clinging to their ideals and lifestyles and assuming it's the only way... the problem is letting the old and dying run things... We sure would be afraid to let a "child" run a country, but it's in my thoughts that they would do a much better job than any "elder"...

We've created a society where children are immature, naive, absent minded and have very small attention spans..

Welcome to ATS.

You sound like an ok guy, but last week one your country's top generals threatened to "nuke" hundreds of US cities if we try and help Taiwan.

Your country is allied with Iran and Russia (both enemies) and I think China is controlling North Korea, perhaps using NK as an attack dog against America and her allies.

Personally, I think your Chinese government means us harm in the near future. We have tried to be friends, but your country kicks us in the teeth every chance it gets.

Im not only talking military issues here, but your country also STEALS BILLIONS of dollers from our movie industry and companies like Microsoft by copying on a large scale and selling these items for dirt cheap on the streets.

Remember what happened to the crew of the Navy P-3 that was RAMMED by one of your "hotshot" pilots over international waters? Remember how China interned the crew and stripped the plane of all electronics?

Those are not the actions of "friends"....You talk the talk, but you don't walk the walk. Your the one mis-reading our actions, not the other way around. Most American conservatives know an enemy when we see one and China is no friend of ours.....they never have been and never will be.


Maximu§






[edit on 123131p://333 by LA_Maximus]

Originally posted by HenryXY
1. China is now a super power
So far I don't think so. Most people in China, especially the north west and south west parts, are still very poor. If you experienced the misery famine age of China 20 years ago then you will know what we Chinese really need, a peaceful and rich country. The character and the central idea of
philosophy of Chinese is toleration, which means most likely(maybe 99%) China will never be an aggressive country.

The people in those regions are poor because the CCP, despite their "helping the poor" propaganda, is mis-allocating funds and international aid into their own pockets, into militarization, and into money-pit showboating like the space program, the Shanghai maglev train, the Olympics, the World Expo, the Jin Mao Tower, the Pearl Oriental Tower, the list goes on, while social instability, unrest, and poverty in outer regions increases. China is rapidly becoming a military superpower, but at the cost of neglecting its citizens.

As for China being aggressive, the CCP has always aggressively conquered lands which it arbitrarily decides are part of "the glorious motherland". Just ask Mongolia, Tibet and India. Rampant nationalism is on the rapid rise in China, thanks largely to the CCP-controlled propagandist education and media. China is becoming increasingly aggressive, without a doubt.

2. Taiwan & Tibet problems
Since thousands or hundreds of years ago(Sorry, it is always very difficult to remember all the important events during the 5,000 years history of China, that is why I "hate" the history course in middle school^_^), Taiwan and Tibet have already been a part of China. They should be civil problems of China and no irrelevant to the western countries. Just think about if Hawaii or Alaska is independent what will the U.S people do, then you will understand the willing of Chinese to get Taiwan back.

The CCP bases its claims to Taiwan on 6000 years of history, but history shows that Taiwan has changed hands many times. There are portions of Russia that had Chinese people there at some stage in history, but you don't hear the CCP claiming those lands, because the cowardly CCP only fights battles it knows it can win. If we measure sovereign territory by such a long historical yardstick, then most of Europe belongs to Italy. Even Japan and Korea were part of the greater Chinese anthropological region at one stage in history. China has had many capitals in its time, including NanJing (which means "South Capital") and BeiJing ("North Capital"). The characters for Tokyo, in Japanese and Chinese, mean "East Capital". Do you think that China has claim to Korea and japan?

I'm sorry, but the CCP has to wake up and realize that the world is not the same place it was 6000 years ago. No other country is proud, immature and petty enough to ignore this fact. The debate on historical claim to Taiwan is endless, but it basically comes down to this: Taiwan is not part of China anymore, and it never will be unless the CCP decides to take it by force. The Taiwanese people don't want to live under a fascist regime posing as "socialist capitalism". Tough luck, I'm playing the violin for you, get over it.

When discussing the "China pride" the other day with a friend, he said this to me, "Nationalistic Chinese will always tell you how their country is superior because they have 6000 years of history. But how can consider a nation to be superior when it took 6000 years to become a developing country". By contrast, look what the free nation of Taiwan has accomplished in its short 56 years. This is what a nation can do when it's not under the yoke of a corrupt, oppressive dictatorship.

3. Democracy, Human rights
I believe it is the most important point that every western countries try to criticize China. However it depends on how do you define democracy and human rights.
During the 30 years in China, I never heard or saw anyone, including my family members, friends, classmates, colleagues and the friends/classmates..of them, has been caught or put to prison by assaulting China government.
Of course I have to admit it is still a little bit difficult(but possible) to criticize the China government in public, but there are already many articles on the magazine or newpaper criticising some actions of government.

Ask any Falun Gong member or political protester about this one and see what answer you get. Ask the members of non-State-sanctioned churches who are imprisoned or shot. Ask the Chinese who recently defected to Australia about their jobs and what they were expected to do. Ask Zhao Ziyang. Ask the students crushed by tanks at Tiananmen Square. Ask the 3 million or so in "re-education by forced labor" camps. Ask the political dissidents executed by a bullet to the base of the skull and then their families are charged for the cost of the bullet. Ask the Tibetan monks who were tortured to death by Red Guards. The list goes on...

And the articles that are present in the CCP-controlled media are never attacking the government, they are empty calls for self-reform, and every single one of those articles is followed up by an article the next day explaining how the government is on the case and things are getting better. It's controlled propaganda of the most blatant, transparent form, and is so Orwellian it's ridiculous. My guess is that you come from a middle-class family. The story that you tell is very different to the stories I hear from the poor and dissatisfied behind closed doors.

Compared with the "democracy" of US, it is very interesting to find that old Bush and young Bush are both elected to presidents. It means that in US only the guys from rich and powerful family can have the chance to be leaders. Nevertheless when we take a look at China's leaders, we can find all of them come from the normal or even poor families, like Chairman Mao, Deng Xiao Ping, ChairMan Deng and even the current Chairman Hu( Mr. Hu graduated from the Tshinghua university, which means he was the top 0.00001% student at that time).

And all of these "poor" crooks have become billionaires by siphoning off money from the people and the nation, while tens of millions of "the People" go hungry. They are leeches on the buffalo's backside. Nothing more.

It is truly amazing how a select group of fascist tyrants in socialist garb have managed to keep one-fifth of the world's people in thrall for 56 years. The Chinese Communist Party is an evil imp riding on the back of a dragon, whispering lies to it and whipping the back of its ears. One day the dragon is simply going to turn its neck and eat the imp

4. Chinese people have a negative attitude to western countries
[...]
Currently Chinese can accept both eastern and western culture. On the other hand, it seems that the invading of western culture are kind of successful :-)

There is no "invasion" of Western culture, and frankly this kind of attitude stems from the impression of "imperial control and exploitation" that is still drummed into the heads of Chinese by the CCP to this day. The Chinese are importing Western culture because they want the riches, the fancy clothes, the flashy cars, all the bells and whistles that the shallow Western world worships so much.

With the help of internet and globalized economy, the chinese now watch the same movies/DVD , read the same best selling books and listen to same CD as what westerners do.

The DVDs are all pirated, because the CCP's protection of intellectual property is laughable. The Chinese people may only read what the CCP lets them read. All literature, both foreign and domestic, must be approved by the CCP censors. Any material deemed "subversive" or "counter-revolutionary" is censored or outlawed.

Most families in China's middle/big cities have DSL/Cable to access internet (I could even get a 10M extreme high speed internet at home before I left China) and there are more than 300 million cell phone customers using the most advanced communication tools.

The same with literature, the people of China can only access websites that the government allows them to. I forget where the list of banned websites is located, but I can find it if you're truly interested. Any websites that the CCP considers to be subversive are banned and blocked, and this includes the BBC. Western companies like Microsoft are forced to assist the goevernment to enforce censorship on their systems, otherwise they are not allowed to operarte in the PRC. The CCP employs government agents to monitor forums like this one to direct and manipulate thought, and to report potential political dissidents or uprisings.

I can say that what Chinese know about western countries are much more than what western countries know about China. So please don't only trust what you read on the books or newspaper of western countries, go to visit China and eventually you will find out a real China yourself.

That is complete rubbish. You're talking about the minority middle class. 99% of the lower class can't locate America on a map. Taxi drivers often ask me what language they speak in Australia. The average Chinese person's knowledge of the outside world is pitiful. Even the middle class are incredibly ignorant of the outside world. They only know what they learn in specific subjects in school. I met a Chinese international economist who thought that Westerners eat hamburgers with coke for dinner every night, that Australians speak Australianese, and that New Zealand is an Australian state.

Sorry, it is my first time to post an atricile here and my english is not good enough to express my ideas very clearly and exactly. But I think many people here are also familiar with China, please feel free to add any comments

Don't worry, your English is excellent. Welcome to ATS.

[edit on 2005-7-20 by wecomeinpeace]

PS: Well said wecomeinpeace.



Maximu§

Hello guys!
Nice post, reminds me the situation with the western attitude to Russia.
By the way, wecomeinpeace said:

There are portions of Russia that had Chinese people there at some stage in history, but you don't hear the CCP claiming those lands, because the cowardly CCP only fights battles it knows it can win.

lol it cannot claim those lands anymore because not so long time ago Russia and China signed a border treaty... also Russia has even 'presented' to China a really tiny part or it's land.

That is complete rubbish. You're talking about the minority middle class. 99% of the lower class can't locate America on a map.

Yea, and the absolute majority of American middle class people cannot even locate Ukraine on the map, they don't even know that it's the biggest country of Europe, if not to mention Russia which belongs to Eurasia.

First off, excellent first post...

Don't be offended if you find it moved to a different forum of the site though....kind of loosely "current events"...

Just a couple comments....

Being a Superpower doesn't mean you've eliminated the poor. There are still plenty of poor in the US, and tales of Soviet breadlines, even back when they were a major superpower, were pretty well known....

Taiwan may have BEEN a part of China, but that's the key word....it's in the past. It became a manufacturing giant itself. It's all economic, not trying to reclaim a lost territory....

Personally, just because we may disagree with some of the actions of the Chinese government, it doesn't translate to it's people. Indeed, I find the Chinese culture and traditions fascinating...

Yea, and the absolute majority of American middle class people cannot even locate Ukraine on the map, they don't even know that it's the biggest country of Europe, if not to mention Russia which belongs to Eurasia.

Very true. I'd wager that in a class of 20 US high school students, about 15 of them wouldn't even be able to point out SPAIN on a world map without the countries being named on it. (hell, I'd bet more than 10 couldn't do it in under 20 seconds even WITH the names on the map!) Sad though, really.....

Great post there henry, it's always great to hear about someone's views directly from china, who actually knows the laws and knows what's there. Although, i wish we had more iraqi's on this board, really tell us what they think. It's not the chinese people, sadly it's the government. If the people think were evil, that's a fallacy isn't it? Were not the government, anyway what about the falun gong, last time i head they still have a strong foot hold. That, and mr. bill gates is moving in to help mow down free speach. Oh, and welcome to ats

Edit: Made post longer

[edit on 20-7-2005 by malakiem]

[edit on 20-7-2005 by malakiem]

Originally posted by Nordix
lol it cannot claim those lands anymore because not so long time ago Russia and China signed a border treaty... also Russia has even 'presented' to China a really tiny part or it's land.

Non sequitur. Just because the CCP has not signed a border treaty with Taiwan does not mean that Taiwan belongs to China. Just because the CCP claims Taiwan belongs to China does not make it so. And if Taiwan were as powerful as Russia, they probably would have signed a treaty long ago.

Yea, and the absolute majority of American middle class people cannot even locate Ukraine on the map, they don't even know that it's the biggest country of Europe, if not to mention Russia which belongs to Eurasia.

HenryXY's post: "I can say that what Chinese know about western countries are much more than what western countries know about China."

He did not specify "America" only. There are more countries in the West than just the United States. In fact, traditionally "the West" referred to Europe. Secondly, comparing the Ukraine to the world's greatest superpower in terms of recognizability is ludicrous. Thirdly, ask many Chinese about the Ukraine and they will simply have never heard of it. The comparison is moot.

[edit on 2005-7-20 by wecomeinpeace]

First thanks for your reply. I haven't enough time to argue with you on every points you mentioned in your article now, but I really want to point out one important fact:
In China, since 20 years ago, every chinese student is required to study the history(geography)of western countries. These kinds of courses usually named "History(Geography) of Western Countries" will last for around 6 years, from middle school to university. The thing that we need to recite the years, names of persons and description of important events makes me feel quite boring at that time. However, at least it makes the Chinese people a basic knowledge and expression of the foreign countries.

If you don't believe it just confirm it with any educated Chinese younger than 35 years old and they might tell you the history of civil war between north US and south US, the culture revolution in Europe....

Just wondering know how many western countries have added the history of China into the formal textbook for their students?

Do US or other western countries have such course? I really doubt it.

Originally posted by wecomeinpeace

Originally posted by HenryXY

I can say that what Chinese know about western countries are much more than what western countries know about China. So please don't only trust what you read on the books or newspaper of western countries, go to visit China and eventually you will find out a real China yourself.

That is complete rubbish. You're talking about the minority middle class. 99% of the lower class can't locate America on a map. Taxi drivers often ask me what language they speak in Australia. The average Chinese person's knowledge of the outside world is pitiful. Even the middle class are incredibly ignorant of the outside world. They only know what they learn in specific subjects in school. I met a Chinese international economist who thought that Westerners eat hamburgers with coke for dinner every night, that Australians speak Australianese, and that New Zealand is an Australian state.

Sorry, it is my first time to post an atricile here and my english is not good enough to express my ideas very clearly and exactly. But I think many people here are also familiar with China, please feel free to add any comments

Don't worry, your English is excellent. Welcome to ATS.

[edit on 2005-7-20 by wecomeinpeace]

[edit on 20-7-2005 by HenryXY]

[edit on 20-7-2005 by HenryXY]

Originally posted by HenryXY
In China, since 20 years ago, every chinese student is required to study the history(geography)of western countries. These kinds of courses usually named "History(Geography) of Western Countries" will last for around 6-10 years, from middle school to university.

Again, you're talking about the minority middle class. 99% of the lower class, which makes up the vast majority of the populace, can't locate America on a map. Ask any Australian who Deng Xiao Ping, Jiang Ze Min and Hu Jin Tao are, or when the PRC was formed and they will likely be able to tell you. Ask even most middle-class Chinese who Bob Hawke, Paul Keating, Malcom Fraser, and John Howard are, or when Australian federation was and you'll get a blank stare. But I gather when you say "the West", you're really talking about the US.

If you don't believe it just confirm it with any educated Chinese younger than 35 years old...

The majority of my friends fit exactly into that demographic.

The thing that we need to recite the years, names of persons and description of important events makes me feel quite boring at that time. However, at least it makes the Chinese people a basic knowledge and expression of the foreign countries.

Which outlines one of the greatest weaknesses of the Chinese education system. It is focused almost exclusively on mindless memorization to pass tests. The CCP has, to their credit, recently been reviewing the effectiveness of the education system, largely because they are tired of having to pay foreign experts to come to China and tell them how to run their industries, despite having an abundance of locals who are degreed up to the eyeballs. The focus on problem-solving, lateral thinking, plus applicable knowledge and skills is grossly lacking. When I taught English part-time for a while, it used to drive me crackers trying to explain to students that mindlessly memorizing vocabulary lists of obscure, seldom-used words was no substitute for actually using the language.

Just wondering know how many western countries have added the history of China into the formal textbook for their students?

Does US do it? I really doubt it.

As I said, are we comparing China and the West, or just China and the US? I guess you mean the US.

He did not specify "America" only. There are more countries in the West than just the United States. In fact, traditionally "the West" referred to Europe.

Ohhh well I'm terribly sorry, in my understanding The West was always USA, but over here usually it means the USA more than the Europe. Thanks anyways, i will take it into consideration.

China is in deep crap it's state controled banking system has backed 35% of it's monetary system with unsecured loans. Although a massive population exists within it's borders that could easilly become a liability.
Evey time some of those old gaurd start rattling sabers I laugh because I know just how deeply they have invested in American enterprises stocks bonds ect , And I also know just how foolish an Nuclear exchange would be considering MAD ( mutually assured destruction)which would be the outcome and even they know that it's just political jesturing an attempt to make those Washington pantywaist liberals wet themselves in fear. Pantheria

Just want to tell you one thing, the most popular sport in China is soccer.There might be 2 million crazy fans for it.And in the recent years , there are many important soccer matches between Ukraine and China so the name of Ukraine always appeared in the newspaper and websites' of China. Also, many Chinese know there is a very famous Ukraine soccer forward in A.C Millian club of Italy and we gave him a nick name--"Nuclear Weapon of Ukraine". How dare you say that Chinese know nothig about this country?? Just by your imaging.

Just wondering what kind of chinese did you ask for such kind of question? If they are old Chinese people leaving China many years ago then I have nothing to say. If they are all young people(

Welcome to ATS!!!

Thank you for your awesome debut post. It really taught me a lot about the current state of China. China is a country I am really interested at this moment.

Tell me this, though. What exactly do you feel is China's strongest point, currently?