FYI: Banned member today (IlluSionS667)

Originally posted by Hellmutt
Hey Relentless.
Check this out.
It´s not faked.

i saw that image too, when it was up on the board, and it made me laugh because its the exxact same member... lol,...makes ya wonder...

BaastetNoir, my "group" already has been a "victim" of Nazi (I'm part Russian) has been a victim of Christianity (Native American), the English, French, etc, etc.

Yet I really do not worry about people who believe in the National Socialist Ideology to come and raise their point - as long as they don't go around making threats.

If nobody counters their points, corrects them on issues and shows them they have made mistakes but instead segregates them to the frindge of society they will only help to breed the ideology that you dislike.

If all they can do is go around bringing about hatred for another group, trying to get people on ATS to agree with attacking/hurting other people or they break the T&C I would have a problem with it. But just being a National Socialist? Doesn't bug me - let them have their views.

Edit: Yet again, remember it wasn't just Jewish people who got killed by always mentioning them isn't that abit unfair to the other groups who lost millions yet nobody ever mentions them?

[edit on 17/7/2005 by Odium]

Originally posted by Jamuhn

I don't know the exact nature of Illusion's posts since they have been taken down. If this person was truly advocating harm against groups of people, then the only wrong thing with this person's posts was that it violated the board's TOC.

He was trying to post a totally false (revised) version of history to serve a Nazi, racist agenda.

Anyone with access to google can find out more about this now former member of ATS.

In fact, I'll save you some time, just click here.

If you take enough time to go through the search results, you'll see some of the more radical forums that person has been involved with. Also you may want to read through some of his profiles. You will not find any of his material on ATS.

Deny Ignorance!




[edit on 17-7-2005 by UM_Gazz]

Good. Holocaust denyers and Nazi's do not deserve another platform from which to spew their propoganda. My family was caught right smack dab in the middle of the whole thing in Poland so from 2nd hand knowledge(my Bubcha told me stories about what went on ) it's a damn good thing we are continuing to silence these Storm*#$*ers. I hope it's not another "Invasion" like last time

Well Odium join the club,

My part of the town has been a victim of Vandals, Visigods, Romans, French, Arabs, Spanish ... a long long list of THOUSAND of years... and that why i stay by the side of those who banned this guy and guys like him.

Im tired of garbage... its hatred agains Christians, against Jews, but God forbid if anything is said against gays, muslem or whatever else ( and im not promoting hatred agains those either), im simply saying Hatred is Hatred and it should be denied...

You said that you have no problem if people promote the Nazi doctrine, as long as they dont threat peopel... well one follows the other ... the only reason they cruise around the web is to recrute idiots that need to belong to something. And that SHOULD NOT BE ALLOWED !

and another thing, Indians were victims of Catholicism and protestanism, just like Black people, not Christianity. Jesus Christ never told anyone or anywhere to kill anyone, Indians or not.

Anyway....like i asked before why not allow Child Molesters, Rapist, Murderes to enter too ?? hey what the heck let some snuff movies experts in too... im sure we have alot to learn form them.

anyways ..this is my op... and of course anyone who wants to turn their face away while garbage like this is beeing promoted and spewed.... they can do do ....





[edit on 17-7-2005 by BaastetNoir]

Originally posted by BaastetNoir
would you be a Jew marked like catle and whose family had been burned in a oven, you would think differently... Nazism IS HATE SPEECH and IGNORANCE... and hey ... this board claims to DENY IGNORACNE and that what it was donne.!

Do you think Jews are the only ones who suffered misfortune at the hands of Nazis? Anyone who stood up in the name of human rights and decency during that period was treated the same way.

As well, I said earlier that, according to this board's TOC, speech intended to harm people is not allowed. Hence, he was banned. My quotes were meant to point out that, IN THE REAL WORLD, whatever he says is perfectly allowable, and should be, in case the next time they come after your speech.

If you allow Nazis, why not allow Child molesters?? let them in a post stories about all the pervertions and murderes they have commicted... if there is "freedom of speech " fo one there must be for others??

If any child molester does such, then that can be taken as testimony for their crime and they may be arrested for breaking the law, not for saying things that you don't agree with. I feel you are missing important distinctions between action, thought, Nazi, hate, discussion, etc.

Freedom of speech come at a very high cost ... you better watch what you wish for, eventually your "social group" may be the next victim, and im sure than you wont think its "freedom of speech" anymore.

How about you not get personal since you have no idea who I am. Much of my family was murdered by Nazi's, not for being minorities, but for standing up for the Jews. We are still trying to get back much of what has been taken from us. You see, my family didn't have freedom of speech when the Nazi's were in power. And now it is you who is advocating that we take away freedom of speech. Be careful what YOU wish for.

The only thing the World needs to know about the Holocaust is that IT HAPPENED, IT WAS EVIL, There is NOTHING to question, and by the turn things are turning, it may happen again..in a global scale ....

No, the world needs to know every single effectual detail of the holocaust. Just like people need to learn more history, it probably wouldn't hurt for you to take some grammatical lessons (just a friendly reminder ). By the way, you do understand that someone can question the holocaust without being a Nazi? There are a number of high-profile people who question minute details of the holocaust, and sometimes even larger parts. They are considered history revisionists, not Nazis. This is another distinction you need to grasp.

[edit on 17-7-2005 by Jamuhn]

BaastetNoir, never said I agree with anyone being a target or hate. However, is it not better to correct people instead of letting them go on and spread their view over other places?

If we deny ignorance, should we in turn not wish to educate those who are ignorant?

Originally posted by Jamuhn
By the way, you do understand that someone can question the holocaust without being a Nazi. There are a number of high-profile people who question minute details of the holocaust, and sometimes even larger parts. They are considered history revisionists, not Nazis. This is another distinction you need to grasp.

yeah i know alot of people were hurt by the Nazi's not just Jews, that makes another reason not to promote the garabe..


and NO... i DO NOT understand why would a non-nazi question the Holocaust. What is there to question ?? IT HAPPENED ! what ... are they questioning now if the Jews and everyone else were "asking for it ??

thats just garbage ... REVISIONIST ? ah... what a fancy name for a neo-nazi.

Ill start "REVISIONING" slavery in USA and see how everyone else likes it ??

"Did slavery really happened?? or did the Black People made it up for compassion" ??

"Did the slaughter of the Native nations really ahppened??" ill have to revise that too...

Find whatever fancy name Revisionist, Confirmationist ... whatever you like..

if it smells like a duck, quacks like a duck and walks like a duck... its not a cat.

yes im that hard-headed... and im happy this way

Originally posted by Odium
BaastetNoir, never said I agree with anyone being a target or hate. However, is it not better to correct people instead of letting them go on and spread their view over other places?

If we deny ignorance, should we in turn not wish to educate those who are ignorant?

Odium

the men did not come to ask about the subject he cam to PROMOTE the subject, obviously he already had the "education" he wanted..

Hatred is Hatred ! call it whatever fancy names you want...

i have nothing else to say about this subject...

See ya round

GO MODS !!!!!!!!!!!!! GREAT JOB !

But there are lots of questions that can be asked and can be answered, while we still have the chance. If we refuse to question it then we are just supporting ignorance.

For example; "What did Nazi Germany move away from Concentration Camps and using Jewish people as cheap labour to that of extermination camps and killing them?"

"Why were some Jewish people allowed to serve in the armed forces?"

Questions like this need to be answered, while people are still alive to answer them. Otherwise we will allow it to happen again.

Originally posted by UM_Gazz
If you take enough time to go through the search results, you'll see some of the more radical forums that person has been involved with. Also you may want to read through some of his profiles. You will not find any of his material on ATS.

I did, but nothing that would give me a true impression of what this guy was posting. In fact, some of the things I've seen are somewhat contrary to the impression give on this guy. The only definitive thing was that he was on the StormTroopers board, but his posts give a different impression of at least what my perceived stereotype of what a Nazi board would be like.

I think it was best said by Henry Rollins on one of his spoken word CDs. To paraphrase:

"I find it disgusting that people refuse to listen to others that disagree with him. Take talk shows for instance. If the leader of the KKK gets up on stage, he gets booed off before he has a chance to say anything. In not being allowed to speak, he becomes even more upset, and his hatred grows. The only hope we have of changing these people's views is to let them speak. You have to understand the mind of a person like that before you can communicate with him in a manner he'll understand."

(The above is not a direct quote - I have paraphrased to clean up language and other tangents within the bit.)

Basically, he's saying that instead of just immediately shutting someone out and allowing them to breed further hatred, listen to them, no matter how much you disagree with them, and understand what makes them tick. More often than not, people with views such as this don't really have the views because of a deep-rooted hatred, but more often they have the views for another reason, be it acceptance by a group when no other group will accept him, or a play for some degree of power, a feeling of inadequacy in themselves, or other such reason.

It's been thought that Hitler really had nothing against the Jews (remember, he was raised Jewish), but rather used them as a scapegoat to unite the German people after a very harsh recession. In order to keep the German populous happy, and keep production up, he kept on with the ruse, targeting Jews, blacks - basically any non-Aryans. He led the Germans to believe that these people were evil, and that their extermination was good. Since he was so efficient at it, he retained power until his suicide towards the end of WWII. It wasn't because of a hatred of Jews, it was because he wanted power.

Most hate mongers are this way. If you want to change them, you must understand them. Listen to them before you denounce them. Maybe you'll learn a little something, and perhaps you'll be able to do far more good for the person than if you started crying foul right off the bat.

I don't promote hatred in any form, however, I understand that others do. I want to know why. I listen, regardless of whether or not I agree. Communication breeds tolerance. Tolerance breeds peace.

[edit on 17-7-2005 by obsidian468]

Originally posted by WyrdeOne
I thought it was the policy of ATS not to discuss banned members in the interest of board sanity?

Were you guys just getting a lot of inquiries regarding the matter, or what?

The T&C are good, especially regarding false information. It should definitely be enforced.

I just thought y'all weren't in the habit of discussing every schmuck who gets shown the door.

question the Holocaust ???? UNREAL ! what is there to question ? Did the Jewsih people trow themsleves in the ovens ? and marked themselves like catle ? UNBELIVEBLE ! Whats there to question about holocaust ?? Arent tapes, videos, photos, newspapers, and even Hitler's own confessions enough ? It IS a FACT.

There is merit in researching more deeply into the holocaust. It certainly happened, anyone who questions that denies all the evidence. However, it may have happened in a much different fashion than we're told.

Moneyed Jews may have financed the camps to an extent, and deals were certainly made behind the scenes sparing those lives 'worth' more. The targets were primarily poor mixed-race semites, Gypsies and Jews. Even the full blooded gypsies were of little concern to Hitler.

Reactions like the above by Baastet make it hard to find anything out though. It's like looking for a needle in a bramble patch... Everything is pokey.

SO
Aren't they really IBM serial numbers?




[edit on 17-7-2005 by WyrdeOne]

I ciulden't have put it better myself my grand father was a holocaust surviver (sorry about the spelling im really tired) and because i hate spammer's i'll give my two cents

i belive in freedom of speech but when you start trashing a great bored with your (pardon the language) neo-nazi bullsh!t you turn this site into only a portion of what it should be.

of course people have diffren't views than i do I respect that. But when people are posting topics that are pure rascism . They take away from this otherwise wonderful site (it's 2 am right know sorry)

Good job guys for keeping this site at it's best

Good point, obsidian468.

By shouting down, booing and pushing out those with disagreeable or extreme views, we (all of us in the ATS and beyond) are no better than they are. We would just begat more intolerance by denying others whose views or beliefs are very different from ours or too extreme for us.

There is a reason why Newton's Third Law of Physics always being a great equalizer for those with tolerable views and those with intolerable views in any public or private forum board.

Surely there are a lot of us who can be intellectually capable of countering or educating those people like Neonazi revisionists or others of extreme, even hateful views. We can be persistent enough to show that better informed or enlightened knowledge would win over hateful, ignorant and extreme knowledge.

If we don't, intolerance and ignorance of those with hateful/extreme views or beliefs would thrive and prosper anyway and we end up losing the struggle of ideas and knowledges in the long run.

Every member, moderator and forum administrator should bear that in mind.

I understand the ban and the reasons for it and would agree. I don't understand a three page thread discussing it. This is also the first I have seen this site actually post regarding a ban but I suspect there must have been flack about it to cause the staff to feel the need to discuss it with the general member base.

Many sites have a "banned" section to them that list the member and the fundamental reason for the ban. The section is not open for reply and provided to the site community simply to communicate action and so that other members clearly understand what they should and should not be doing. Perhaps ATS should consider this avenue versus a thread debating a person that is no longer here. Just a thought.

Actually this is the first time a banned member has been announced by somebody from the staff since I've been here. We almost never hear who's been banned. Either you notice or you don't. Usually a couple mods just drive up in black vans, sneak up splinter cell style, grab the member and then thats were things get really mysterious.

Anyhow I'm pretty sure the reason why this was announced was because a lot of us have been trying to raise awarness about Stormfront invasions. I've been spreading word about Stormfront invasion on other forums for quite some time. Either way this guy was a neo-Nazi and I think the staff needed to send a message that racism and other ideals forced down people's throats by sites like Stormfront are not tolerated.

[edit on 7/17/2005 by cyberdude78]

Originally posted by obsidian468
Basically, he's saying that instead of just immediately shutting someone out and allowing them to breed further hatred, listen to them

The concept of supporting the "free expression of opinions" does not involve supporting (with private funds) those who would seek to alter widely known, proven, and experienced historical events in an effort to promote hateful motives.

It's that simple.

I don't understand what he's saying anyhow:

immediately shutting someone out and allowing them to breed further hatred

Wouldn't immediatley shutting them down STOP them from breeding further hate...

We deny ignorance here...people like that are the exact definition of ignorance. We are simlpy denying them.

Originally posted by SkepticOverlord
The concept of supporting the "free expression of opinions" does not involve supporting (with private funds) those who would seek to alter widely known, proven, and experienced historical events in an effort to promote hateful motives.

It's that simple.

I'm not criticizing your judgement (or the judgement of Gazz, or any other mod) in this matter. I understand that this is a privately funded site, and the member in question acted in violation of the T&C, and was therefore banned. That is not my reason for posting as I did. My reason for posting as I did was because this discussion has apparently turned into a free speech debate, rather than a discussion about the banning. While reading through this thread, I noticed that many people seem to want to deny the ignorance of others, instead of learning about and educating the others. I'm just stating that acting in that manner just breeds more ignorance.

Trust me, if everyone that promoted hatred in some form or another was banned from this site, I could care less - it's not my call to make. However, if given the opportunity, I will hear out someone, regardless of their opinions, and attempt to educate them.

and NO... i DO NOT understand why would a non-nazi question the Holocaust. What is there to question ?? IT HAPPENED ! what ... are they questioning now if the Jews and everyone else were "asking for it ??

No, of course the jews as a whole did not "asking for it". That's just crazy talk. However, I have heard many theories about wealthy and prominant jews supporting the holocaust for profit and personnal gain. Even heard of Americans doing such things because they truly believed that Nazi Germany was going to win and take over and or convert the world....and these "sell outs" wanted a place in this new Nazi world. Think of them like noblemen back in the day kissing the kings arse so they could have a bit of social status in the kings kingdom...samething.

The holocaust was bad and we learned much from it, but we can learn more. That's how we prevent future atrocities from happening, we look back and see what went wrong. And that requires searching for the truth.

Jamuhn, I agree
BaastetNoir, just because someones questions something (even as bad as the holocaust) that does not mean they support it....there are many details left unanswered. Jamuhn never said it did not happen, he is just pointing out that (as I said above) there are too many unanswered questions. Is it wrong to look for these answers?

Anyways, I think the dude should have been banned. He had a clear [negative] agenda and went beyond "accepting ignorance"...he was ignorant...also he he apparantly supported the holocaust (from what I gather). If allowed to stay he would have invited all his other Nazi brothers to join us...and then we would all have been required to kick some Butt....see, we just saved ourselves the trouble

[edit on 17/7/2005 by SportyMB]