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'Christian' adoption agency rejects Catholics

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posted on Jul, 19 2005 @ 11:32 AM
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A deplorable, but probably predictable consequence of the superficial differences between religions. I thought this type of behavior was considered unconstitutional.




posted on Jul, 19 2005 @ 03:52 PM
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why Jake1997, do you claim to know the heart of a Catholic? When they profess with their mouths that they believe in Jesus Christ as son of God and saviour of all mankind, why is that good enough for God but is not good enough for you?



Show me where I said that saint4god.

I distinctly said the opposite of the words you are trying to put in my mouth.


Originally posted by jake1997
I wont comment on an individuals relationship with Christ like that.
There are people everywhere who God calls. I have spoken to more then a few who know the contradictions of the RCC and scripture. But that is the RCC.
The same way Lot was a good man in a bad city, so too can there be good people inside a dead church.


Why was that not good enough for you?

Not everyone who says Lord, Lord...and casts out demons and does many good works, will see Heaven.

I would like for you to address the scripture I gave above. Its whats holding one of us back, and so its the only way to get us on the same page. No amount of highmindedness will be able to take its place.


Val,
Good to go. We are not told the beliefs of the servant and cannot assume either way. It was the faith of the Roman soldier that healed the servant.

Now I will add this: At that point Christ is not yet risen and the OT covenant is still effective. The house of a master is blessed because of the master. By the same token, a whole house is cursed because of the master of that house. There are plenty examples in the OT for that.

That said, It was still faith in Christ that healed the servant.
Christ wants believers.
The intent of my original statment still stands. We are saved by faith.

Heb 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

That is what faith is.


Eph 2:7 That in the ages to come he might show the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Healing is also thru faith

Act 14:8 And there sat a certain man at Lystra, impotent in his feet, being a cripple from his mother's womb, who never had walked:
Act 14:9 The same heard Paul speak: who steadfastly beholding him, and perceiving that he had faith to be healed,

It is the faith that brought the healing

Now the final lesson is back to Jesus

Mat 17:15 Lord, have mercy on my son: for he is lunatic, and sore vexed: for ofttimes he falleth into the fire, and oft into the water.
Mat 17:16 And I brought him to thy disciples, and they could not cure him.
Mat 17:17 Then Jesus answered and said, O faithless and perverse generation, how long shall I be with you? how long shall I suffer you? bring him hither to me.
Mat 17:18 And Jesus rebuked the devil; and he departed out of him: and the child was cured from that very hour.
Mat 17:19 Then came the disciples to Jesus apart, and said, Why could not we cast him out?
Mat 17:20 And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.

Very exclusive. Jesus will even find another way to get things done if a non believer stands in the way just as He did here.


Now since these verses were missed last time

Rom 16:16 Salute one another with a holy kiss. The churches of Christ salute you.
Rom 16:17 Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offenses contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.

As always...there is more...but..

It just dawned on me that you do not care for the scripture...only for unity.
Have it. I'd rather stick with Christs words



posted on Jul, 19 2005 @ 05:58 PM
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At the risk of getting back on track...we are disccusing the discrimination of this particular agency, which in fact really does go beyond just Catholics being rejected after having read their "Statement of Faith".

www.bethany.org...

This excludes anyone who does not believe exactly as they do and in my opinion it means everyone outside of themselves, not just Catholics. I also find that in fact that their "Statement of Faith" is in conflict with Catholic teachings, so I am wondering why a RCC priest would say otherwise, but that at the moment is beside the fact.

The next interesting thing I found is their "Cultural Diversity Statement" found here.

www.bethany.org...

Well, it's pretty typical with one glaring omission. Creed.




Bethany will openly support and hold each other accountable for adhering to these principals:

Bethany will serve children and families, regardless of their cultural, racial and ethnic backgrounds.
Bethany will expand the knowledge of its board members, staff, and clients regarding cultural, racial, and ethnic diversity.
Bethany will recruit board members and hire staff who affirm the value and equality of individuals from all cultural, racial, and ethnic backgrounds.
Bethany will be culturally and racially diverse and sensitive in all its forms of communication, both internal and external.


Quite frankly I have never seen a cultural diversity statement that leaves off the religion part. How is this cultural diversity?

So the question in my mind, especially in light of the fact that they are claiming to provide social services and in fact work with Social Services in many divisions (a publicly funded organization) do they really have the right to be exclusive on this count at all? Is this appropriate unless they are entirely privately funded and separate from all aspects of publically funded programs, services and monies? I just don't think so.



posted on Jul, 19 2005 @ 06:23 PM
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Fair enough.

In their statement they are exclusive just like Jesus Christ.
I say that on the basis of

I believe that God, by His grace, provided redemption and restoration in Jesus Christ for all who repent and believe. As the Savior, Jesus takes away the sins of the world. Jesus is the one in whom we are called to put our hope, our only hope for forgiveness of sin and for reconciliation with God and with one another.

I believe that in all matters of faith and life, the Scriptures of the Old and New Testaments are the final authority. The Scriptures point us with full reliability to Jesus, God’s Son. The Scriptures tell us that we receive forgiveness of sins by faith in Jesus Christ, and that God provides salvation by grace alone for those who repent and believe.


In my first post in this thread I addressed those things right there concerning the RCC teachings and prayers.

Then we have another part that directly touches this event

I believe that the Christian Church, as the community of believers, has an obligation to protect, preserve, and enhance life as fully as possible for each person, born and unborn, from the beginning to the end of life.

Its their religion. Its their choice. Leavem alone. There are many places to adopt kids. Why try to force them to knuckle under to your will. Leavem alone.

Let me try to amplify what they believe

It is their GOD GIVEN DUTY to love and protect the children asigned to their care. The bible is very explicit. The RCC teachings and doctrine are contrary to scripture.
Now, do they obey scripture and God...
or bow down to humanistic moral authority and the humanisitc sense of justice.

Go somewhere else. Leavem alone.



posted on Jul, 19 2005 @ 06:33 PM
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Originally posted by jake1997
Fair enough.

In their statement they are exclusive just like Jesus Christ.


I thought Val got you past that one Jake?


It is their GOD GIVEN DUTY to love and protect the children asigned to their care. The bible is very explicit. The RCC teachings and doctrine are contrary to scripture. Now, do they obey scripture and God...
or bow down to humanistic moral authority and the humanisitc sense of justice.

Go somewhere else. Leavem alone.


Fine, no problem, but then they should stay totally independant. What don't you get? Nevermind, I see what you don't get.



posted on Jul, 19 2005 @ 06:59 PM
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They are at least independant from the RCC.

What do you want them to be independant from?

Headquartered in Grand Rapids, Michigan, Bethany is a not-for-profit, pro-life, Christian adoption and family services agency. Bethany’s support comes through reimbursement for services, and from gifts received from individuals, churches, corporations, and foundations that share Bethany’s commitment to improving the lives of children and families. With over 75 locations nationwide and international ministries in 15 other countries, Bethany touches the lives of more than 30,000 people each year.



posted on Jul, 19 2005 @ 07:20 PM
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Originally posted by jake1997
What do you want them to be independant from?

Bethany’s support comes through reimbursement for services,



Might want to check into what that means exactly - lol.



posted on Jul, 20 2005 @ 05:32 AM
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Originally posted by phalcon
Well being adopted myself, Let me tell you this... There is no such thing as an UNWANTED Child. Some family out there wants a child that they biologicaly cannot have for themselves, there are thousands of barent couples that want to have the joy of raising a child.

I first want to apologize for offending you by saying these children are unwanted. I did not mean to imply that they are unwanted by anyone at all, only that, for whatever reason, their birth parents wouldn't or couldn't care for them. I know that there are many people who would love to adopt and raise these children. I, myself, have chosen not to have my own kids, but should I ever feel that I want a child, I intend to adopt. Personally, I think everyone should stop choosing to have kids until all of the children who need to be adopted and loved, are, but that's not a very popular opinion.


Their primary concern.... Are you a Bible Believing Chrisitian? I'll asume no because of your nickname and your comment, but correct me if I am wrong. Then you have no idea what is primary concern to a Christian.

You know what they say, "Don't assume, because assuming makes an ASS out of U and ME."


As a matter of fact, I was raised in a strong Christian home and attended Christian school from kindergarten thru my high school graduation, so I think it is safe to say that I am familiar with the primary concerns of fundamentalist Christianity.

While I wouldn't consider myself a Christian, it is not because I disbelieve the teachings of Christ. Rather, it was the blatant misapplications of, and the constant, hypocritical bickering over, the meanings of his teachings which led me to realize that Christianity had finally been caught in religion's tangled web.

I no longer identify myself with any sect or religious faith, choosing instead to learn as much as possible from all I encounter. Truth permeates all things, and it makes no sense to me why I should look for it in only one place, while ignoring its wisdom elsewhere.

If you are a Christian of the "my specific denomination of Christianity is the only true religion" type, I don't expect you to support this, and that's fine, but don't presume that I don't understand things from a Christian perspective, just because you can't see things from mine.



That is for childrent to be raised in a Godly Home. If your a Christian you agree with Jesus who said "I am the way, the truth and the life" Why would you want then to put a child into a home who would raise him to contary to how the Bible would?

And whose interpretation of the Bible's directions for raising a child should be used when making this determination? Yours? Mine? The abusive father who beats his children because he thinks the Bible says to do so?

Should we look to the Episcopalians, the Pentacostals, the Baptists, the Catholics, the Methodists, or one of the other demoninations for guidance and the Truth on this subject?
Obviously, only one can be Right, so anyone who is a member of the other Wrong denominations couldn't possibly raise a child in the manner prescribed in the Bible (as interpreted by the Right church), could they?

Since it would be unethical to place a lonely child with a loving Christian family (Catholics are considered Christians, btw), if he/she might be exposed to the potentially soul-damning Biblical interpretations of a family from the Wrong church, the only thing to do is keep the child in a foster home or orphanage until a Christian family from the Right church decides they want him/her. Huh?!

This is how you think Christ would have handled things? If you believe so, I guess I misunderstood what he meant when he told his disciples what the two most important commandments to follow were.
You know:
Love the Lord your God with all your heart, mind, and soul. And Love your neighbors as yourselves.


You say a loving and commited home, Well I seen many families, but the most loving caring I've ever seen are true Bible Believing Christian homes, so perhaps your point actualy makes mine.

Having come from one myself, I agree that many Christian homes are wonderful, loving, homes.
What constitues a true Bible-believing Christian vs. an untrue one, in your opinion, I hope to learn when you respond to my earlier query on the matter.
I wonder though, how many families in the United States, let alone the world you have seen? In my 27 years, I personally have seen mostly protestant and non-religious American families, and have known, probably, no more than a hundred well enough to assess whether or not they were truely loving families or not. As is to be expected, some were and some weren't, but I have seen almost as many miserable children and marriages as I have happy ones, in Bible-believing Christian families. It is more likely in my experience for a Christian family to be unbroken, than a non-religious one, but staying married and providing a loving, and secure home for a child, do not necessarily go hand in hand.

Just because a Christian family looks happy when you see them in church on Sunday, doesn't mean they are. And just because you see a broken family struggling to pick up the pieces doesn't mean there isn't an abundance of love hiding below the chaos, and giving them a reason to smile and have hope.

If you truly believe that "true Bible-believing Christian" families are the most loving, and caring, out of all of the families in the world, you are either very naive about the world you live in, or you are choosing to see those things which fit with your beliefs, and are disregarding the rest.

You owe it to yourself, and the people operating that "adoption" agency owe it to the children they claim to be serving (for Christ), to broaden your understanding and perceptions of the world outside your tunnel-vision.

p.s. sorry I dragged on so long!



posted on Jul, 20 2005 @ 06:49 AM
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Originally posted by jake1997
Show me where I said that saint4god.

I distinctly said the opposite of the words you are trying to put in my mouth.


I looked through the many posts on this thread and have been following others for months. Pardon if I misunderstood, perhaps you can clarify for me. Let's get right to the heart of the matter and be candid: Do you believe that Catholics are Christian? That is to say born-again, Christ loving and believing followers of God.


Originally posted by jake1997
I wont comment on an individuals relationship with Christ like that.
There are people everywhere who God calls. I have spoken to more then a few who know the contradictions of the RCC and scripture. But that is the RCC.
The same way Lot was a good man in a bad city, so too can there be good people inside a dead church.


By what authority do you judge a church to be 'dead'...or if there is none, by what means are you making this assessment other than to say you do not agree with the Catholic methods of worship? Do you believe Catholics read scripture on their own? Using the word 'fruitless' is not true. My friend I've known for 12 years (who is Roman Catholic) has been building houses for those who cannot afford a home, teaching young children about Christ and why Jesus is important to them. He put me down as a reference to the seminary to become a priest knowing full well I was not Catholic, in good faith that I would support him because of what I knew of him as a friend, co-worker, and volunteer, not because of religious practices. His generousity is overflowing, always helping even when I never ask. God blessed that man and continues to do so every day.

If you want to talk about fruitless, you and I can go to OUR OWN church and see those people who show up once during Resurrection Sunday and once at Christmas and call themselves students of the Word. I sure hope they study at home because it don't seem like they be gettin' much twice a year. You think they talk to others and spread the gospel? I doubt it, it's hard to talk about something you don't study. So before we start pointing fingers to places we don't go, maybe we should start fixing all the problems in the places we do go first.


Originally posted by jake1997
Not everyone who says Lord, Lord...and casts out demons and does many good works, will see Heaven.

I would like for you to address the scripture I gave above. Its whats holding one of us back, and so its the only way to get us on the same page. No amount of highmindedness will be able to take its place.


I don't see the word "Catholic" in this verse in our Bibles. You seem to be interpreting it this way. Why? Now please kindly address my scripture from Paul and Christ.

I really didn't want to get into this fight. This is EXACTLY what Paul is talking about. Jake1997, you've got some great things to say and I believe you are a great help here on ATS which is why it is heart-breaking to see all this time and energy being spent shouting across the pews when we could actually be doing some good.

May love, faith, and hope be with you always,
God bless.

[edit on 20-7-2005 by saint4God]



posted on Jul, 20 2005 @ 06:30 PM
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Originally posted by saint4God

Let's get right to the heart of the matter and be candid: Do you believe that Catholics are Christian? That is to say born-again, Christ loving and believing followers of God.


Originally posted by jake1997
I wont comment on an individuals relationship with Christ like that.
There are people everywhere who God calls. I have spoken to more then a few who know the contradictions of the RCC and scripture. But that is the RCC.
The same way Lot was a good man in a bad city, so too can there be good people inside a dead church.


It seems like you missed that part in bold again. So lets move on to your question of authority.



By what authority do you judge a church to be 'dead'...or if there is none, by what means are you making this assessment other than to say you do not agree with the Catholic methods of worship?


Joh 7:16 Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me.

Do I need to go through all the stuff the doctrine credits to mary and asks of mary in prayer? Then move on to each individual saint...starting with peter?

... The RCC approved mary visions show mary seeking her own glory. The church glorifys her. She is made a goddess via eternal virginity, and immaculate birth.
The church condones this.
The church also conforms to the world in its stance on evolution.
The now dead pope JP2 put forth that muslims and jews will goto heaven because they believe on the God of abraham.

How much leaven does it take to leaven the lump? Lets look at scripture. Ive already mentioned the doctrine of the Nicolatians....so lets get right to fruit

Mat 7:18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.


What is Jesus saying? How does it speak of the crusades, the inquisition, the current problems within the church including their new old sex scandle involving the raping of nuns by preists for the good of the church. (look it up..africa)

Rom 16:17 Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offenses contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.
The bible is the doctrine you have learned. The ones teaching the new thing that is not in the bible are the ones to be marked.

Thats one of those I mentioned above.












Do you believe Catholics read scripture on their own? Using the word 'fruitless' is not true. My friend I've known for 12 years (who is Roman Catholic) has been building houses for those who cannot afford a home, teaching young children about Christ and why Jesus is important to them. He put me down as a reference to the seminary to become a priest knowing full well I was not Catholic, in good faith that I would support him because of what I knew of him as a friend, co-worker, and volunteer, not because of religious practices. His generousity is overflowing, always helping even when I never ask. God blessed that man and continues to do so every day.


There you go back to individuals after you quoted me about individuals above.
None the less, perhaps you can tell me who Jesus is talking about

Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.


Could it be someone who believes in Jesus, but gives glory to a dead and buried human instead? They use to worship dead folks in days gone by. All the pagan cultures did it.
Easter is based on it.





If you want to talk about fruitless, you and I can go to OUR OWN church and see those people who show up once during Resurrection Sunday and once at Christmas and call themselves students of the Word. I sure hope they study at home because it don't seem like they be gettin' much twice a year. You think they talk to others and spread the gospel? I doubt it, it's hard to talk about something you don't study. So before we start pointing fingers to places we don't go, maybe we should start fixing all the problems in the places we do go first.


It seems to me that he RCC folks started pointing fingers at the adoption agency because they do not want to put children with someone who might teach that child that evolution is real, jews and muslims goto heaven without christ, mary is queen of heaven and watches over you, the pope can give you a 'bye' on sin so you can celebrate the big fesival day, the pope is infalible, people come back from the dead and speak with you, its ok to break the commandments....

Then when I showed the reasons , such as those above,..it turned into a 'anyone who disagrees with the RCC doctrine is bad' thing that even YOU jumped into.






Originally posted by jake1997
Not everyone who says Lord, Lord...and casts out demons and does many good works, will see Heaven.

I would like for you to address the scripture I gave above. Its whats holding one of us back, and so its the only way to get us on the same page. No amount of highmindedness will be able to take its place.


I don't see the word "Catholic" in this verse in our Bibles. You seem to be interpreting it this way. Why? Now please kindly address my scripture from Paul and Christ.


That verse with 'lord lord' addressed 3:16

You can look at the parable of the seeds to see where some 3:16'ers do not make it


Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Heb 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

Rom 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

1Co 15:1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
1Co 15:2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Now when someone says that all who call upon the name of the Lord will be saved...that someone is assuming that you will also stay seeking the Lord and not turn away from that call. The athesit who 'calls' in doubt and sarcasm will hardly meet God before the second resurrection.

You ask on whos athority I judge the fruits of the rcc and pronounce the church dead.

So how can their be an individual who is 'alive' in a dead church?

People do not goto a rcc church because they are looking for that doctrine. They goto that church because they are seeking God or because their family goes. I started out as the later and became the former...and then fell away from it only to have God find me 531 miles and 10 years later.

So people who honestly seek God, and read their bible, and pray, and listen...they can be found inside the RCC....
However..they are not the majority. The majority are firmly in the way of the nicolaitans (sp?)

[edit on 20-7-2005 by jake1997]



posted on Jul, 20 2005 @ 08:48 PM
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Up to this point, all I heard were accusations of the church being off-base with little to no reason why. At least here I see a kind of case being presented. I'll have to take a discerning look at this, see if others who also have knowledge of the church discuss it, research and see if I can get back with ya on any points.

I like the quotes about salvation, the expansions on John 3:16, much appreciated there.

The only point I can speak to right now is - "how can anyone be alive in a dead church?" by answering I know that there are people who are alive, and as you have acknowledge maybe not a majority, so therefore it cannot possibly be a dead church being that the people make up that church. That is to say all people make up a church, not just a majority. I then also challenge you and I to do the same. When we go to church on Sunday, pan around and find out how many people are 'alive' during that service. We should do our best to try to see who is bearing fruit. We should see just how many 'dead' people we have going there. I'm wondering if those 'dead' people are in the majority in our church...

[edit on 20-7-2005 by saint4God]



posted on Jul, 21 2005 @ 07:09 PM
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I had taken it for granted that you were fully informed on the subject.

--

The person who gets to speak at the church is the one who counts the most concerning the life of the church.
In an RC church that is only the priest. He will only speak the RCC doctrine.

Sodom and Gomorah were dead. Lot was there, and so judgment was stayed. When Lot left..judgment came. (hmm...pondering rapture implications)

..anyway..

a study on Mystery Babylon could be in order



posted on Jul, 22 2005 @ 04:50 AM
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I'll have to take a discerning look at this, see if others who also have knowledge of the church discuss it, research and see if I can get back with ya on any points.


Include in that research whether it is taught and condoned for catholics to bow before images of mary and pray to her. (her apparitions command you to give her glory...rcc supported apparitions)

Then..
Can you bow before CHrist and another (Mary) and still be a christian?
Or lets change it a bit since we are talkng pure idolatry
Christ and baal
Christ and astarte
Christ and molech
CHrist and (fill in the blank)

The OT has an example of everything we need so we can have a second opinion.



posted on Jul, 22 2005 @ 06:10 AM
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Originally posted by Relentless
So the question in my mind, especially in light of the fact that they are claiming to provide social services and in fact work with Social Services in many divisions (a publicly funded organization) do they really have the right to be exclusive on this count at all? Is this appropriate unless they are entirely privately funded and separate from all aspects of publically funded programs, services and monies? I just don't think so.


EXACTLY on point Relentless. PUBLIC money. If they want to be
bigots on their own money, fine. But with PUBLIC money ... nope.

www.worldnetdaily.com...

The offending group in Mississippi has now changed it's policy and it
now says it will NOT discriminate against Catholics who wish to adopt.
Wonder if they are afraid of loosing PUBLIC money?

That's a good first step. If they wish to continue to receive public money
then they should be all inclusive - including prospective parents of every
faith and color . If they wish to stick to their narrow-minded view of who
is able to be a good parent who isn't, then they shouldn't receive public
funds.

Considering that they have now realized that their Faith Statement
DOES include Catholics, perhaps that means they have educated them-
selves and now better understand that Catholics are Christians.

www.worldnetdaily.com...



posted on Jul, 22 2005 @ 06:23 AM
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Originally posted by jake1997
Include in that research whether it is taught and condoned
for catholics to bow before images of mary and pray to her.


1. Do Catholics Worship Statues?
www.catholic.com...
Do Catholics Worship Statues? Catholics worship statues!
People still make this ridiculous claim.

2. (This Rock: January 1994)
www.catholic.com...
The Catholic Church permits statues because they remind us of unseen things, but it condemns the idolatry of statue worship.

GEEEEEEEEZE Jake ... this is so OLD. In BTS you brought this up over
and over and over and over .... In BTS this has been answered over and
over. Did you ever actually read what was posted? Nope. Didn't think
so. Get out of that anti-Catholic cult you are in Jake. It isn't doing you
any good.

ONE LAST TIME ...

The BIBLE commands that we pray for each other. There is nothing
wrong with asking others to pray for us. When we go to Mary or
any one else, we are asking them to pray for us to God. Just as the
bible commands.

Catholics don't worship statues. It is in the catechism and is taught
in Catholic schools and in CCD class (a sort of Sunday School). This
is basic. Statues in churches are much like pictures you have in
your home. They raise you mind to those whose picture you are
looking at. Statues raise our hearts and minds to God and to the
holy things that His saints did for Him (and this inspires us to do
holy things for God) and that He did in His saints.

Try reading THESE instead of those Chick Tracts that you
get your information from -


www.catholic.com...

Holy Images God commanded in the bible -

Ex 25:18-20 Thou shalt make two cherubim of beaten gold, on the two
sides of the oracle. Let one cherub be on the one side, and the other
on the other. Let them cover both sides of the propitiatory, spreading
their wings, and covering the oracle, and let them look one towards the
other, their faces being turned towards the propitiatory wherewith the
ark is to be covered.

Num 21:9 The Lord said to him: Make a brazen serpent, and set it up
for a sign: whosoever being struck shall look on it, shall live. Moses
therefore made a brazen serpent, and set it up for a sign: which when
they that were bitten looked upon, they were healed.

3 Kings 6:23 - He made in the oracle two cherubims of olive tree, of
ten cubits in height.

3 Kings 6:28 He overlaid the cherubim with gold. And all the walls of
the temple round about he carved with divers figures and carvings: and
he made in them cherubim and palm trees, and divers representations
as it were standing out and coming forth from the wall.

3 Kings 6:33-35 He made in the entrance of the temple posts of olive
tree four square: and two doors of fir tree, one of each side; and each
door was double, and so opened with folding leaves. And he carved
Cherubim, and palm trees and carved work standing very much out:
and he overlaid all with gold plates in square by rule

Gal 6:14 God forbid that I should glory save in the cross of our Lord
Jesus CHrist; by whom the world is crucified to me and I to the world.

Jos 7:6 - Josue rent his garments and fell flat on the ground before the
ark of the Lord until the evening, both he and all the ancients of Israel.
Jos 7:6

Is 11:10 - His sepulcher shall be glorious.

Matt 9:21 - If I shall touch only his garment, I shall be healed. And the
woman was made whole from that hour.

4 Kings 2:14 - He struck the waters with the mantle of Elias, and they were
divided hither and thither, and Eliseus passed over.

4 Kings 13:21 - When it had touched the bones of Eliseus, the man came to life.

Acts 5:15 - They brought forth the sick into the streets and laid them on
beds and couches that when Peter came his shadow at the least might
overshadow any of them, and they might be delivered from their
infirmities.

Acts 19:11 - God wrought by the hand of Paul more than common miracles.
So that even there were brought from his body to the sick handkerchiefs
and aprons, and the diseases departed from them, and the wicked
spirits went out of them.




[edit on 7/22/2005 by FlyersFan]



posted on Jul, 22 2005 @ 06:35 AM
link   

Originally posted by jake1997
So lets move on to your question of authority.


Frankly 'authority' of a church is completely off topic from - should this
group receive public funds when they are non-inclusive. You are turning
this into BTS...

However, I will provide some education for you, and anyone else
interested. READ it Jake.

Matthew 16-18 - Christ appoints Peter the head of His church and give
him authority on earth and in heaven - 'whatever you hold bound will
be held bound, whatever you let loose will be let loose - on earth and
in heaven'.....

More in depth information on authority -
www.catholic.com...

And as I said ... this is completely off the topic.... should a group receive
public funds when they are bigoted and non-inclusive? No. They can
do what ever they want, but they shouldn't be receiving public funds.



posted on Jul, 22 2005 @ 07:00 AM
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Originally posted by jake1997
I had taken it for granted that you were fully informed on the subject.



YOU are not informed about Catholicism at all.
Your education has come from Jack Chick tracts.
Your mandate has come from that cult you are in - trib farces dot com.
(a cult that pushes non-biblical escapist fantasy 'rapture'. Uses it as
soul candy reward for good cult behavior)

Frankly, you don't have the knowledge, the ability, or the calling
to tell people what the Catholic church believes or practices. You
don't have the gift of reading souls to insinuate the statements that
you have - that most Catholics are lukewarm and/or insincere.

You point at the less than one tenth of one percent of Catholics who
misbehaved (priest sex scandal) and claim that is some kind of proof
that the Catholic church is evil, and you 'forget' the Jim Bakkers and
the Jimmy Swaggerts of the Fundamentalists, not to mention the
protestant ministers who flash people on the street and who leave
semen filled napkins on the piano for the lady who does the church
music, etc. etc. The protestant daycares that have had those running
them guilty of child molestation and of 'lending' the children to Satanists.
It happens everywhere. It's just 'in vogue' to dis' the Catholics so that's
what the media talks about most. So if the less than 1/10 of 1% of
Catholics (the priest sex scandal) mean the Catholic Church is evil, then
that goes tenfold for protestants.

Protestant Sexual Abuse –

www.advocateweb.org.../hope/articles_clergy.asp&m=Clergy+Sexual+Abuse&d=%2E%2E%2Fcease%2Fcsa%2Ehtm

www.beliefnet.com...

www.advocateweb.org...

www.advocateweb.org.../hope/articles_clergy.asp&m=Orthodox_Abuse&d=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Eangelfire%2Ecom%2Fbc%2Forthodoxsurvivors %2Focampr%2Ehtml

www.advocateweb.org.../hope/articles_clergy.asp&m=Orthodox_Abuse&d=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Eangelfire%2Ecom%2Fbc%2Forthodoxsurvivors %2Focampr%2Ehtml

and the bottom of this has links to many other Christian denominations and abuse –
biblia.com...

A mature person would understand that the behavior a a very few people,
be they Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, whatever, DOES NOT change the
truths of that religion.

I am greatly concerned about your mental health. Really. Sincerely.
Get thee to a psychologist and get out of your cult Jake. All your time
and energy are being spent doing the work of a 'NOT-holy-spirit'.

You seem to have an Irrational pathological anti-catholic obsession.
You have been dangerously decieved. That's not an insult. That's an
observation. (I was a psychology major) Contact your insurance company.
Most will pay for at least 8 sessions with a psychologist to start with.



[edit on 7/22/2005 by FlyersFan]



posted on Jul, 22 2005 @ 07:50 AM
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Originally posted by jake1997
You can look at the parable of the seeds to see where some 3:16'ers do not make it

Here's where I'm going to disagree...

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.


The passage you've quoted says "whosoever", which says to me the same thing the dictionary does:

Main Entry: who·ev·er
Pronunciation: hü-'e-v&r
Function: pronoun
: whatever person : no matter who -- used in any grammatical relation except that of a possessive

(Looking up whosoever points to whoever)

I don't know of any passage in the Bible that 'disqualifies' John 3:16 and if it did, then the Bible would no longer be the inerrant Word of God....which we both know would be a problem. If you're saying that Catholics are slightly off-base, well, I don't know. That would be better addressed by someone at that church. But if you're saying they're not going to heaven or are not Christians, I think this would passage says otherwise.



[edit on 22-7-2005 by saint4God]



posted on Jul, 22 2005 @ 09:12 AM
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Originally posted by jake1997
that evolution is real

Wrong. Pope John Paul II said that it was his personal opinion that
GOD could form people in any manner that He wished. That God could
have 'spot zapped' people into exhistence or that He could have used
evolution to create Adam and Eve. God created people in a way that
He thought best and as long as people accepted that GOD created
people, in whatever manner, then that was not anti-Christian.


jews and muslims goto heaven without christ

Wrong. The Catholic church does not teach as official doctrine that Jews
and Muslims go to Heaven. Your statement is rather funny because
it's usually fundamentalists that complain that the Catholic church
teaches that non-Catholics can't go to Heaven. The OFFICIAL
Catholic teaching on non-Christians and non-Catholics is that it is
up to GOD to judge if they have Christ in their hearts and that we
aren't capable of judgement in that area.


mary is queen of heaven and watches over you,

Official Catholic teaching on Mary, intercession of saints -
www.catholic.com...


the pope can give you a 'bye' on sin so you can celebrate
the big fesival day,

What is a 'bye on sin'. Saying goodbye to sin?


the pope is infalible

Wrong. The pope is not infalible and the Catholic church doesn't
teach that. The pope is a human who sins like the rest of us. If he
was infalible he wouldn't be going to confession. Papal infalibility
relates to when a doctrine is declared by the pope EXCATHREDA.
When a doctrine is declared by the church in this manner it is
considered infalible (see Mat 16-18).


people come back from the dead and speak with you

What? Like a seance or something? The church says not to do that.
If you are talking about when saints from heaven occasionally come
back ... take a look at the transfiguration of Christ on the mountain and
how the dead came back ... Peter, James, and John saw them. They
spoke. It happens when God wants it to.


its ok to break the commandments....

Wrong. This is so stupid it doesn't deserve comment.



it turned into ... anyone who disagrees with the RCC
doctrine is bad' thing


Wrong (again). It turned into anyone who disagrees with the Roman
Catholic Church has a right to do so, but get it RIGHT when you say what
the Catholic Church believes. And so far, you have not.

You want to believe that Catholics are not good parents and unworthy
of adoption because some of us believe that God could create Adam and
Eve in any manner of His choosing .... that's your right to think that ....
but it's also our right to dispute that thought process and the errors
about the Catholic Church that you have posted.



[edit on 7/22/2005 by FlyersFan]



posted on Jul, 22 2005 @ 09:20 AM
link   
BOTTOM LINE -

The adoption agency has decided to allow Catholics to adopt from them.
They either did this because they finally figured out that Catholics really
are Christian, or they did it because they know that PUBLIC FUNDS could
be cut off from them if they don't and so they caved in on their (erroneous
anti-Catholic) beliefs in order to keep receiving PUBLIC money.



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