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The LCA puzzle

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posted on Jul, 17 2005 @ 12:58 AM
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Originally posted by W4rl0rD
Now let's take a look at J-10, first flight in 1998, flight test finished in 2003, with 5 years 1700 test flights,

yeah any source for that ? how do you expect the chinese state controlled media that has'nt even released the dimensions of the J-10 to give out the number of testing hours its got ????

and its first flight was actually in 1996


The first "official" flight took place on March 28, 1998, and was largely successful. However, the first actual flight of the J-10 might have taken place two years earlier - in mid-1996 - but suffered from an engine malfunction with unknown consequences. In late 1997 the second flying J-10 "1002" prototype was lost in a crash which also killed the chief test pilot.

link


At least 20 engineers from Israel Aircraft Industries (IAI) were part of the fighter's design team at Chengdu.

IAI also helped with windtunnel testing in the early design stage.

link


David Lari, director general of Israel's Ministry of Defense, acknowledged in an Associated Press interview that "some technology on aircraft" had been sold to China and that some Israeli companies may not have "clean hands".

The J-10's radar and fire-control system is the chinese version of the Israeli-made ELM-2021 system, which can simultaneously track six air targets and lock on to the four most threatening targets for destruction.

the US Office of Naval Intelligence in its unclassified "Worldwide Challenges to Naval Strike Warfare" restated more strongly than it had the previous year its belief that technology from the canceled Israeli Lavi fighter was being used on China's new J-10 fighter. It said, "The design has been undertaken with substantial direct external assistance, primarily from Israel and Russia

In fact, according to the annual intelligence report, "the J-10 is a single-seat, light multi-role fighter based heavily on the canceled Israeli Lavi program".

link


Russian involvement in the J-10 program was not limited to the AI-31FN turbojet engine, but also included advanced multifunction radars, navigation and targeting systems, ECM suite, and missile warning and defense systems.

link

and about the WS-10A which was not even purchased; it was rejected and the Russian engines were purchased : www.mosnews.com...



Russian arms industry sources have disclosed that China is close to mastering the complex skills required to build(reverse engineer) the the Al-31 engine

on page 7 of this pdf (in the chinese copying section) >> www.sipri.org...

Russia reportedly had denied China the license to produce the engine locally. As the result, an indigenous engine WS-10A (came up)
mil.jschina.com.cn...

The CAC is also trying to replace the Russian AL-31F with the indigenously developed WS-10A, which is said to be a Chinese copy of the AL-31FN.
www.sinodefence.com...



and its missliles :



The famed PL-12 or SD-10
The PL-12 was said to be derived from the Italian Aspide technology and integrated with active radar-homing seeker technology obtained from Russia.

The missile was developed indigenously, but also with helps from foreign manufacturers. Several Russian missile and subsystem developers are reportedly supporting the program, with much of the missile utilizing components from the R-77 (AA-12 Adder).

In 1996 China revealed an active radar-homing seeker AMR-1, which is possibly based on Russian technology. Claimed to be developed for the new generation active radar-homing MRAAM, the AMR-1 seeker or its developed variant could be used to guide the SD-10.
www.sinodefence.com...


PL-11
Chinese copy of Italian Alenia's Aspide missile (which inturn was derived from the U.S. AIM-7E Sparrow) that it got in the late 1980s
www.sinodefence.com...

PL-9
Apart from its control surfaces the PL-9 is almost identical to the Israeli Python-3, which was developed from the AIM-9L. The one major difference, according to information in Jane's All the World's Aircraft, is that the PL-9 has only about one-third the range of the Python 3.

China has improved upon the PL-9 by marrying it to an apparent copy of the Arsenel helmet sight from the R-73.
www.sinodefence.com...

PL-8
The PL-8 infrared homing short-range air-to-air missile is a Chinese copy of the Israeli Python-3.
www.sinodefence.com...

The PL-4
The PL-4 is a Chinese copy of the U.S. AIM-7B Sparrow. (from Pak ?)
www.sinodefence.com...

Its other missiles : R-73, R-77, R-27 - These are Russian missiles.


and its development was like torture(despite being based on the LAVI with most of Russian or Israeli) as claimed by links :



The development of J-10 has proven to be tortuous.

The prototype was rumored to have first flown in 1996, but the project suffered a serious setback in late 1997 when the 02 prototype lost control and crashed, as the result of certain system failure, presumably with either the FBW system or the engine.
www.air-attack.com...
------------
The development of J-10 has proven to be tortuous.

The first prototype was set to fly between 1995-96, powered by a newly designed WS-10 turbofan. However the development of this indigenous engine suffered some serious difficulties and thus the rear fuselage and engine intake were forced to be redesigned in order to accommodate an alternative AL-31FN engine imported from Russia. As the result, the first prototype (01) made its maiden flight on March 23, 1998, two years behind the schedule. The project suffered another setback between 1998-99 when the 02 prototype lost control and crashed, caused by certain system failure, presumably with either the FBW system or the engine.
mil.jschina.com.cn...


and ever heard of the J-10's acute production problems ???
It was a project that started in 1984 and is based mostly on the Lavi with a Russian engiene and Israeli tech. Israelis and Russians worked on it too.

it was 1984 and not '88 as you claimed; go check it up in this chinese link >> mil.jschina.com.cn...


and the FC-1 the less the said the better : Russian design, Russian engine, worked on by Russian engineers Italian radar and aveonics, plagerized missiles....and if you dont believe me check it out : www.abovetopsecret.com...&singlepost=1548690 & www.abovetopsecret.com...&singlepost=1551360 & www.abovetopsecret.com...&singlepost=1551754



LCA test flight, LCA still need another 13 years to finish it test flights (if Kaveri will be there... ), then we are looking at year 2018 by which at that time the LCA will be similar to the MiG-21 now.


Dream on.......heck why 2018 ...you could have as well said 2118.


and 430 hours testing in 4 years does not mean 100 a year
There was hardly any flights testing in the first 2.5 years and the flight testing have skyrocketed in the next 1.5 years.


and read this :

The air force will place an order for 20 Light Combat Aircraft powered by the GE404-F engines and manufactured by India's state-owned Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd., air force chief S.P. Tyagi said on the sidelines of an air show in southern Bangalore city.

www.highbeam.com...:105259193&num=10

and this is in addition to

The Indian Air Force (IAF) confirmed an order for 40 Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) with the Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL).

Replying to a question, he said the decision of the Air Force to go in for 126 multi role fighters in the 20 tonne class had nothing to do with the delay in the induction of LCA. "We needed different aircraft in the airforce fleet. Don't mix up purchase of 126 aircraft with the LCA" he added

srirangan.net...


And seekerof, why did you ever unlock this thread after locking it ??. ....surely was no secret that this would turn out to be a flame war.

I rest my case here; i will not participate in such a discussion where ignorance is the basis of posting. I will read daedalus's signature and get out of this thread...and if anyone is interested here's LCA may get Kaveri engine by 2006 end

Go ahead guys post all you want...on this plagerized thread...yeah yeah go ahead and say the LCA will never enter production and will be cancelled...and it was a copy of a 1950 F-102 ....and what not

i wont participate in this plagerised thread and debunk ingorance and get into a flame war and get myself banned.If anyone wants to know why, read Daedalus's signature.

Stealth Spy out

[edit on 17-7-2005 by Stealth Spy]




posted on Jul, 17 2005 @ 01:38 AM
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Originally posted by W4rl0rD
Yeah India is trying to BUILD an aircraft. With an American engine, Russian and Israeli avionics. It is taking way too long for this project, maybe the Indians will be better off buying the MiG-29 for a replacement for its MiG-21s instead, and get a license to manufacture it in India.

Good Lord. I've never seen so much concentrated crap in one statement.

Russian and Israeli avionics?


MiG-29 being class replacement of MiG-21s?



Have we really come full circle? Almost a hundred pages of discussion in the previous LCA thread and you ended up knowing less than you did when you started??

Is this physically possible?

Or is it simply that you simpy do not wish to hold a rational argument?

You simply are only capable of idio-nationalist grandstanding. Taking your own baseless conjecture and repeating it ad nauseum until in your mind they become synonymous with fact. Then extrapolating more basless anti-Indian statements on these facts again and again in a downward spiral into utter incompetance and delusion.



Just what are you two trying to prove in this endless, idiotic debate??

That cognitive dissonance can become nurtured into a clinical condition?

-Raj



posted on Jul, 17 2005 @ 01:45 AM
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Guys,

The best and really only thing to do with someone arguing for the sake of arguing, is to leave them be.

The whole point is to rile you up.


Besides, apart from those in this thread, no one here reads/cares/obsesses about as much as these two the state of the LCA project.

So please, do not post in this thread anymore. Dignify their willing ignorance of the bloody obvious with a just as studious boycott of their troll baits.

This is my last post in this thread, and hopefully, the last post by any non-ubernationalist Chinese e-warriors.



posted on Jul, 17 2005 @ 02:08 AM
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Originally posted by rajkhalsa2004
Russian and Israeli avionics?

Yeah, Russian and Israeli avonics.


MiG-29 being class replacement of MiG-21s?

I don't see how the LCA is going to be better than the MiG-29. India should just buy the MiG-29 instead and add more fire control for ground striking.




Or is it simply that you simpy do not wish to hold a rational argument?


How is this irrational, may I ask? Why don't you prove me wrong?


Dream on.......heck why 2018 ...you could have as well said 2118.


LCA testing is at a rate of 100 flights per year, 400 flights until now. Given the J-10's testing is 5 years and 1700 flights, LCA has 13 more years to go until it finishes testing for 1700 flights like the J-10. My point - this is taking waaaaayyyy too long.



posted on Jul, 17 2005 @ 03:53 AM
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I'm not a part of these stuff anymore. Way too much arguing.



posted on Jul, 17 2005 @ 04:09 AM
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Originally posted by Stealth Spy

yeah any source for that ?

and ever heard of the J-10's crashes and production problems.
It was a project that started in 1984 and is based mostly on the Lavi with a Russian engiene and Israeli tech.


stealthspy we both have been warned. dont start with the copying.



The said to be copy chinese engine never even got purchased


This is what i found out. the WS-10 and WS-10A are 2 different engines. the WS-10A has TV. and the WS-10 doesn't

the WS-10A is not for the J-10 but for the J-11B.



Dream on.......heck why 2018 ...you could have as well said 2118.


the induction of the LCA is starting in 2012. i wouldn't be surprised if it only gets finished in 2018



And seekerof, why did you ever unlock this thing ?? ....surely its no secret that this will turn out to be a flame war.


it doest have to turn into one. post a article clearly stating that it is being inducted.



posted on Jul, 17 2005 @ 04:53 AM
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Originally posted by Stealth Spy
and ever heard of the J-10's acute production problems ???
It was a project that started in 1984 and is based mostly on the Lavi with a Russian engiene and Israeli tech. Israelis and Russians worked on it too.
it was 1984 and not '88 as you claimed; go check it up in this chinese link >> mil.jschina.com.cn...



Initial development of the J-10 began in October 1988.


the development began in 1988.

the J-10 was first conceived in 1984. do you know what conceived is?

*To form or develop in the mind



and the FC-1 the less the said the better : Russian design, Russian engine, worked on by Russian engineers Italian radar and aveonics, plagerized missiles....and if you dont believe me check it out :


you claimed that the FC-1 was this fighter before.


who could the FC-1 be the LFI or mig-33 if it is the PAK-FA
iron-eagles.tripod.com...

this fighter is a cheap fighter 3rd gen while the LFI/MFI are 5th gen

and this is in addition to

The Indian Air Force (IAF) confirmed an order for 40 Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) with the Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL).


like i said before the oringial article said FIRMED not confirmed



posted on Jul, 17 2005 @ 04:57 AM
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Originally posted by Stealth Spy

The first "official" flight took place on March 28, 1998, and was largely successful. However, the first actual flight of the J-10 might have taken place two years earlier - in mid-1996 - but suffered from an engine malfunction with unknown consequences. In late 1997 the second flying J-10 "1002" prototype was lost in a crash which also killed the chief test pilot.


see stealthspy basing your edvidence on speculation

the article you posted said

Initial development of what later was to become the J-10 project was started in October of 1988 by the Research Institute No. 611.


1988. thats when the project started



posted on Jul, 17 2005 @ 04:58 AM
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stealthspy why are we even discussing the J-10 in here.



posted on Jul, 17 2005 @ 04:59 AM
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REPOST SEEING HOW STEALTHSPY ADVOIDED MY QUESTION


Originally posted by Stealth Spy
IAF to buy 40 Tejas aircraft

Air force to buy 40 LCA from HAL


this article is 10th of feburary


The Indian Air Force (IAF) on Thursday confirmed an order for 40 Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) with the Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL), including 20 opitional purchases at a total cost of Rs 4000 crore.

www.deccanherald.com...

this article is 11th feburary

BANGALORE, FEB. 10. The Indian Air Force will soon sign an agreement with the Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) to buy 20 indigenously built Tejas (Light Combat Aircraft) with the option to buy 20 more in a Rs. 4,000-crore deal, the Air Chief Marshal, S.P. Tyagi, said today.


the 11th one reported that the deal had not been signed

how do you explain that.

the meaning of firmed is Indicating or possessed of determination or resolution.

he didn't confirm the deal he firmed it.



Originally posted by Stealth Spy
First of all let me tell you that the IAF has CONFIRMED an order for 40 LCA's a few months back. The IAF chiefs have commited themselves to the LCA on all the TV interviews i have seen. The IAF is not comming out every week and saying in the press that they will buy the 40 LCA's that they confirmed that they would buy. And some reportors and trolls have been using this to speculate that the LCA might not be inducted at all. etc and what not...


srirangan.net...
this article says confirmed but the other article says firmed is that a typo or something else.?



posted on Jul, 17 2005 @ 07:33 AM
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Originally posted by chinawhite


the problem is that the LCA is just doing noraml flying with the 400flights and without missile pythons. 400fights to test the stablility of the plane, come on




C'mon yourself!! What do you know about test flights?? You talk like you've "broken in" a couple've jets yourself!!

You can't test the jet at its max capacities all at once..



posted on Jul, 17 2005 @ 07:36 AM
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and.. umm chinawhite if one article is dated A DAY AFTER another one, then that doesn't mean that it holds more reality than the prev. one..
esp. if they're only a DAY apart for god sakes..
nobody changes their minds in ONE day!!



posted on Jul, 17 2005 @ 12:08 PM
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Topic closed.
*shakes head*





seekerof



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