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The LCA puzzle

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posted on Jul, 16 2005 @ 01:09 AM
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RAVI SHARMA
in Bangalore



Doubts have been raised about the LCA project's future after indications came from the IAF that it may consider halving the number of aircraft of the type it will place an order for now.

Tejas, the Light Combat Aircraft, on its maiden supersonic flight in Bangalore on August 1, 2003.

IS the Indian Air Force having second thoughts on Tejas, the Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) being developed by the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA)? Tejas is meant to be a fly-by-wire multi-role supersonic advanced fighter that will replace the IAF's ageing MiG-21 fleet, but doubts have cropped up following indications that the IAF may be seriously considering halving the number of aircraft it plans to buy since its announcement during the Aero India 2005 air show in February that it would "soon" place an order for 40 aircraft.

Nearly a decade after it was rolled out and since its maiden flight in January 2001, the LCA has proved that it is a good design platform and that it can fly. The air combat and offensive air support fighter aircraft, which is meant to be a weapons platform and is the product of a Rs.5,500-crore, 22-year programme, can do little else at the moment.

Two technical demonstrators (TD1 and TD2) and the lone prototype (PV1), which are currently flying, have logged around 412 sorties, including around 200 towards the successful completion of the LCA's technical demonstration phase. The flight envelope of the technical demonstration phase includes flying the aircraft at a speed of 1.6 mach (1.4 mach done so far), taking it to an altitude of 15 kilometres (accomplished), and making it capable of sustaining an angle of attack of 25 degrees (20 degrees achieved) and a manoeuvrability (resistance to gravity) of 9 G (4G crossed). The flight envelope will also include sorties to gather data on the aircraft's performance in sideslip.
www.flonnet.com...
..




Can anyone provide information about the LCAs induction?

i heard reports about 40 something but no news has surfaced yet


History
First Flight: 4 January 2001
Test Flights: 41 as of 02th June 2005 (Latest Info)
Service Entry:planned for 2005 to 2010

Crew
1 pilot

Estimated Cost
$21 million

Dimensions
Length: 43.27 ft (13.20 m)
Wingspan: 26.88 ft (8.20 m)
Height: 14.42 ft (4.40 m)
Wing Area :412.6 ft2 (38.4 m2)

Weights
Empty: 12,125 lb (5,500 kg)
Typical Load: 18,740 lb (8,500 kg) [clean]
Max Takeoff: 27,560 lb (12,500 kg)
Fuel Capacity:
- internal: 795 gal (3,000 L)
- external: 1,055 gal (4,000 L)
Max Payload: 8,820 lb (4,000 kg)

Propulsion
(production) one GTRE GTX-35VS Kaveri turbofan
Thrust (F404) 18,100 lb (80.50 kN)
(GTX) 20,200 lb (89.86 kN)

Performance
Max Level Speed:
- at altitude: 1,195 mph (1,920 km/h) at 36,000 ft (11,000 m), Mach 1.8
- at sea level: unknown
Service Ceiling: 50,000 ft (15,250 m)
Range: 460 nm (850 km)
g-Limits: +9 / -3.5

Armament
Gun: one 23-mm GSh-23 twin-barrel cannon (220 rds)
Stations: seven external hardpoints
Air-to-Air Missile: medium- and short-range AAM
Air-to-Surface Missile: up to two conventional cruise missiles, anti-ship missiles
Bomb: laser-guided bombs, conventional bombs
Other: rocket pods

Known Variants
LCA-TD-1: First technology demonstrator equipped with a General Electric F404 turbofan
LCA-TD-2: Second technology demonstrator
LCA-PV-1 thru PV-4 Single-seat prototype vehicles that should be at or very close to production form, equipped with in-flight refueling capability
LCA-PV-5: Two-seat trainer prototype vehicle
LCA: Production model for the Indian Air Force
Trainer Two-seat trainer model
Navy model: A navalized version with strengthened landing gear and a redesigned forward fuselage has been proposed for use aboard a future Indian aircraft carrier
MCA: Planned Medium Combat Aircraft derived from the LCA, supposed to possess greater stealth characteristics and thrust-vectoring capability







posted on Jul, 16 2005 @ 03:10 AM
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hey chinawhite

i see you picked up on the LCA again


if i dint know better i wud have thought u really really liked the aircraft....wait...maybe you do


anyway as the article states there is some apprehension regarding the LCA, but what is not clear in the article is wht the apprehinsion is about.

i suggest you have a look at this article www.hindu.com...

its by a publication weel known to u isnt it. it is also a sister publication of the Frontline (the one u quoted)

Infact both articles have the same author.

In it it is clearly stated that the main apprehension of the IAF is tht the control over the LCA program should shift hand from the ADA to HAL, i.e. from developer to eventual manufacturer. thts it.

the IAF continues to stress that it will induct the LCA by 2010-2012, of that there is no doubt.

as for the rest, you gotta give some slack to the India n Defence Establihment, i mean they have set up the whole infrastucture from scratch. there are bound to be a few problems here and there. i am not talkin about the long 22 yr development. tht was unreasonable granted. but wht i am talkin abt is the power struggle over the control of the aircraft.

i mean we are rthe worlds largest democracy, and wht wud be if there was no power struggle over one of our most important defence developments ever



posted on Jul, 16 2005 @ 05:37 AM
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i asked for a article or informatin stating if the IAF have placed a order for the LCA. do you have one or not. if not please do not post this non-sense

and i didn't have a clue it was the same person



posted on Jul, 16 2005 @ 05:54 AM
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if u would have actually bothered to read the article u wud have seen this!


Highly-placed sources told The Hindu that even while the paperwork for an order of 20 aircraft in a Rs. 2,000-crore deal was being processed



posted on Jul, 16 2005 @ 06:42 AM
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this article is newer than the article you posted.

you cant place your faith on some speculation. like i asked for some edvidence not sme idle chit-chat from some guy in the hindu that knows some other guy that knows a guy



posted on Jul, 16 2005 @ 07:45 AM
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firstly the same guy wrote both articles. read the name. it's 'Ravi Sharma'

secondly the frontline article is more recent only because the frontline is a fortnightly while the hindu is a daily. again check the dates the hindu article is dated 10th, July 2005 while the frontline issue carryin the article is the July 16-29 Issue

next they are sister publications as i have stated earlier.

so u cannot post one article as the truth while dismissing claims nade by the other, now can you.



posted on Jul, 16 2005 @ 08:00 AM
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Originally posted by puneetsg
firstly the same guy wrote both articles. read the name. it's 'Ravi Sharma'

secondly the frontline article is more recent only because the frontline is a fortnightly while the hindu is a daily. again check the dates the hindu article is dated 10th, July 2005 while the frontline issue carryin the article is the July 16-29 Issue


uhh???

mine is 16th and that ones is 10th. how is mine more old




so u cannot post one article as the truth while dismissing claims nade by the other, now can you.



they aren't claims that is called a rumour. or are you trying to base that off a rumour



posted on Jul, 16 2005 @ 08:35 AM
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Originally posted by chinawhite

Originally posted by puneetsg
firstly the same guy wrote both articles. read the name. it's 'Ravi Sharma'

secondly the frontline article is more recent only because the frontline is a fortnightly while the hindu is a daily. again check the dates the hindu article is dated 10th, July 2005 while the frontline issue carryin the article is the July 16-29 Issue


uhh???

mine is 16th and that ones is 10th. how is mine more old


i am not saying yours is older. infact i am saying urs is more recent. but think about it. same author. sister publications. published 6 days apart. do u think that Mr. Ravi Sharma actually did seperate research for the 2 articles. in all probability the article would have been ready before the 10th, its jus tht the hindu carried an abridged version.





so u cannot post one article as the truth while dismissing claims nade by the other, now can you.



they aren't claims that is called a rumour. or are you trying to base that off a rumour


again ur logic fails me. suppostions made by the author (one the basis of heresay) in one article are deemed accurate, but (alleged) facts claimed by him in another article are rumours!?!



posted on Jul, 16 2005 @ 10:47 AM
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Still looks like a copy of the old (U.S. - 1950's technology) F-102 Delta Dart to me.



posted on Jul, 16 2005 @ 12:33 PM
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Now we weren't expecting you to change your opinion on that one now were we..??
What'dya say Waynos?



posted on Jul, 16 2005 @ 12:35 PM
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First of all let me tell you that the IAF has CONFIRMED an order for 40 LCA's a few months back. The IAF chiefs have commited themselves to the LCA on all the TV interviews i have seen. The IAF is not comming out every week and saying in the press that they will buy the 40 LCA's that they confirmed that they would buy. And some reportors and trolls have been using this to speculate that the LCA might not be inducted at all. etc and what not...

And chinawhite this is the 2nd thread that you have started on the topic; get over it man- the IAF have confirmed the order and they dont have to come out every day to confirm that. Infact the first 20 LCA's will have GE enginese and the order for the same has been placed and anyone can go look at this in the GE press release on the official GE website. The next 20 (and onwards) will have the indegenous Kaveri engine (which is now undergoing clearence tests)

Check out the IAF's earlier conformation of the deal :



The Indian Air Force (IAF) on Thursday confirmed an order for 40 Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) with the Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL), including 20 opitional purchases at a total cost of Rs 4000 crore.

He said the ADA had already been asked to hasten the LCA project and was sure that the delivery would be on schedule with all necessry flying hours logged. Three developmental aircraft had already logged 357 sorties, he said and added the first twin seater LCA was expected to be ready within the next one-and-half years, he added.

Replying to a question, he said the decision of the Air Force to go in for 126 multi role fighters in the 20 tonne class had nothing to do with the delay in the induction of LCA. "We needed different aircraft in the airforce fleet. Don't mix up purchase of 126 aircraft with the LCA" he added.


link


and if anyone wants any latest info on the LCA, here is the link : www.aero.iitb.ac.in:8081...

and if you want some 2005 images and not images of early prototypes in a pathetic paint scheme check these out : www.acig.org...


LCA with Kaveri engine to be operationalised in 2009: DRDO


Let me tell you that not buying the LCA is not even an option for the IAF; it will be bought; and dont expect the IAF to come and personally tell everyone that they will buy the LCA. It was confirmed and done and the deal will be sealed in some time;

And if anyone is not convinced check this out; the confirmation came in February itself.



YELAHANKA AIRBASE, FEB 11: In wake of chief of air staff air chief marshal SP Tyagi declaring the Indian Air Force intent to acquire up to 40 Tejas Light Combat Aircraft with GE’s F 404-GE-IN2o engine, Chuck Nugent, VP of the GE military systems congratulated Aeronautics Development Authority (ADA). He said, “We are proud to be partner on India LCA team. The announcement reflects the results of the combining a great aircraft with a superb engine.Our partnership with Aeronautics Development Authority has provided the framework for this highly successful flight test programme.”

He added, “We are pleased with the confidence the IAF has with our engine and look forward to supporting the additional requirements announced today.”



and if you want more here are links :

IAF to buy 40 Tejas aircraft

Air force to buy 40 LCA from HAL

and from the GE website, the comfromation for the 20 engines for the first batch of LCA's >> www.geae.com...


and chinawhite i cant tell for sure but it appears to me that you have palgerised this thread from another forum line to line.

and speaking of inductions into the IAF, check this out >>

India's indigenous Pilotless Target Aircraft, Lakshya, was inducted into the Indian Air Force today in tandem with the addition of nine upgraded twin-seater deep penetration strike aircraft, Jaguars, to its squadron.

Sweet news : news.indiainfo.com...


[edit on 16-7-2005 by Stealth Spy]



posted on Jul, 16 2005 @ 12:46 PM
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Originally posted by centurion1211
Still looks like a copy of the old (U.S. - 1950's technology) F-102 Delta Dart to me.


yeah and what else have you got on the menu for us -- the F-22 is a copy of the Su-15 ?? or the Mig-21 is a copy of the spitfire or the J-10 is a copy of the B-2 ???

F-102


heck---1950 F-102, could'nt you think of anything better..... like the Mirage 2000 ???


and this is the nth time i've seen you post your "great wisdom" about the LCA.

ever checked out : www.abovetopsecret.com...&singlepost=1549568 or this : www.abovetopsecret.com...&singlepost=1546216



posted on Jul, 16 2005 @ 12:51 PM
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Going to make something real crystal clear between the two of you: Stealth Spy and Chinawhite, and I would seriously, and I mean seriously, comprehend, heed, and apply this warning.

The two of you will cease your ideological nationalism baiting and disruptive rhetoric. Read it again and fully let it soak into your hard and thick-head skulls, because quite frankly, I will not say it again.

You two have been disrupting topic threads with your nationalistic rhetoric in two forums.
You both have been asked to stop it, repeatedly.
You both have been warned for doing such, repeatedly.
News Flash, the next occurance will not be accompanied with just a red-flag warn, it will come with a temporary posting ban attached.

This forum is a fairly respectable aircraft forum within the internet and I certainly will not stand by and let you two continue to disrupt this forum or its growing reputation for aircraft discussion.

You have been formally NOTICED and warned.
Proceed at your own peril.

Enough is enough!







seekerof

[edit on 16-7-2005 by Seekerof]



posted on Jul, 16 2005 @ 10:12 PM
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stealthspy. i have already asked for a article that is newer than my article posted.

your article is still dated in February 10th.

my article even mentions that.

BANGALORE: The indigenously developed light combat aircraft (LCA) programme is in danger of being undermined by time overruns. The Indian Air Force is delaying taking to its natural conclusion the announcement made last February by Chief of the Air Staff S.P. Tyagi that orders would be placed "soon" for 40 LCAs.



posted on Jul, 16 2005 @ 10:15 PM
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Originally posted by Stealth Spy
First of all let me tell you that the IAF has CONFIRMED an order for 40 LCA's a few months back. The IAF chiefs have commited themselves to the LCA on all the TV interviews i have seen. The IAF is not comming out every week and saying in the press that they will buy the 40 LCA's that they confirmed that they would buy. And some reportors and trolls have been using this to speculate that the LCA might not be inducted at all. etc and what not...


srirangan.net...
this article says confirmed but the other article says firmed is that a typo or something else.?



posted on Jul, 16 2005 @ 10:21 PM
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Originally posted by Stealth Spy
IAF to buy 40 Tejas aircraft

Air force to buy 40 LCA from HAL


this article is 10th of feburary


The Indian Air Force (IAF) on Thursday confirmed an order for 40 Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) with the Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL), including 20 opitional purchases at a total cost of Rs 4000 crore.

www.deccanherald.com...

this article is 11th feburary

BANGALORE, FEB. 10. The Indian Air Force will soon sign an agreement with the Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) to buy 20 indigenously built Tejas (Light Combat Aircraft) with the option to buy 20 more in a Rs. 4,000-crore deal, the Air Chief Marshal, S.P. Tyagi, said today.


the 11th one reported that the deal had not been signed

how do you explain that.

the meaning of firmed is Indicating or possessed of determination or resolution.

he didn't confirm the deal he firmed it.



posted on Jul, 16 2005 @ 10:42 PM
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www.hindu.com...

Ravi Sharma


Indian Air Force wants management of the LCA to be transferred to HAL


BANGALORE: The indigenously developed light combat aircraft (LCA) programme is in danger of being undermined by time overruns. The Indian Air Force is delaying taking to its natural conclusion the announcement made last February by Chief of the Air Staff S.P. Tyagi that orders would be placed "soon" for 40 LCAs.

Apprehension


Highly-placed sources told The Hindu that even while the paperwork for an order of 20 aircraft in a Rs. 2,000-crore deal was being processed, the IAF was "highly apprehensive" of the time and cost overruns, and poor management.

The IAF is keen that the management of the Rs. 5,500-crore, 22-year-old LCA programme be transferred from the technology development agency — Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) — to the production agency, Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL). Something that ADA is reluctant to do, despite the fact that the presence of two agencies and the resultant dual control have played havoc with the management and time schedules of the LCA programme.

Explained a senior scientist at ADA: "As designers of the aircraft, the airworthiness responsibility will continue to be with us. So too will any new installation or upgradation of software, changes in the avionics and integration of future sensors and we are the signatories for all of the aircraft's safety features. We will continue to have responsibility for the LCA programme at least until the aircraft is inducted into the IAF. [Which will not happen before 2009-10]."

Blame game


Dual control has resulted in a mutual blame game. While HAL sources criticised ADA for not providing HAL (which is to manufacture the LCA) with the blueprints of the aircraft, scientists at ADA said that the talk of blueprints was passé.

"We have transferred the technology to HAL. Our designs in real time are available to them at their Aircraft Research and Design Centre, where we have invested Rs. 40 crores. They can draw a soft copy of the aircraft's designs through the product line management systems and then make a 3D model. At any time, Rs. 20 crores of LCA money is parked with HAL."

Carrier trials


Presently Tejas is undergoing carrier trials and by the end of 2005 weapon integration trials are also expected to start. Both are part of the aircraft's initial operational clearance (IOC) phase, which requires around 1,200 sorties. Successful IOC clearance (which is scheduled to be achieved by 2009-10) will mean inducting the aircraft into the IAF's combat units. Only final operational clearance will mean that the aircraft is ready to go into battle.

Currently two technology demonstrators and a prototype of the LCA are flying, and together they have undertaken over 440 flights.

ADA plans to build seven aircraft — two technology demonstrators and five prototypes — in the technology demonstration phase.

Thereafter, HAL's factories in Bangalore, Lucknow, Korwa and Hyderabad will take up the manufacture of the eight limited series production (LSP) aircraft.

Amount sanctioned


Sources at ADA said the Government had sanctioned over Rs. 500 crores for manufacturing the LSP aircraft and an equal amount for building of infrastructure at HAL, specifically for the LSP.

While the first LSP is scheduled to roll out by early 2007, all eight are scheduled to be ready by 2008-09. The eight aircraft will be built to the same specifications as those that are to be inducted into the IAF. An aircraft or even two will be detailed for handling flights.

The ADA's insistence that it would like to be in charge of the LCA programme even during the LSP phase has caused consternation in HAL. It means waiting longer before it is given the financial management of the project.

Experts are of the view that ADA, which is a Defence Research and Development Organisation laboratory and was created specifically for the LCA project, could be merged with the HAL's aircraft design bureau. The ADA team can thereafter carry on its work as part of the manufacturing agency's design bureau.

Concern


The IAF's concern is that once an order is placed for 20 LCAs, it will not only have to budget at least Rs. 2,000 crores for the aircraft, but also part with a substantial portion of the money. This will mean that its options to buy other aircraft — if the LCA fails to arrive — will be severely curtailed.

A desperate IAF, which has seen its fighter squadrons shrink from the authorised strength of 39 and a half, because of the phasing out of a number of aircraft, is presently shopping around for 126 multi-role combat aircraft (MRCA).

But the IAF has stressed that the MRCA deal — which is worth around $9 billion — will in no way impinge on its requirement for LCAs, which will be in the region of 200. These aircraft are to take the place of the IAF's MiG-21s.

[edit on 16/7/05 by W4rl0rD]



posted on Jul, 16 2005 @ 10:58 PM
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LCA from first flight in 2001 till today 2005 finished only 400 test flights, 100 flights/year, Indians are very proud of it, seems a great achievement or something. Now let's take a look at J-10, first flight in 1998, flight test finished in 2003, with 5 years 1700 test flights, this is pretty normal for modern jets, if you look at the number of test flights, according to this and current LCA test flight, LCA still need another 13 years to finish it test flights (if Kaveri will be there... ), then we are looking at year 2018 by which at that time the LCA will be similar to the MiG-21 now.

Yeah India is trying to BUILD an aircraft. With an American engine, Russian and Israeli avionics. It is taking way too long for this project, maybe the Indians will be better off buying the MiG-29 for a replacement for its MiG-21s instead, and get a license to manufacture it in India.



posted on Jul, 16 2005 @ 11:01 PM
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hmm.. I will do some homegorwn research and let you know of the ture impending situation depending on level of classification..

Btw.. I'll have all you critics out there know that 400 or so hours of testing is still very little..You need to have at least 1000+ hours before you can get a good assessment of the aircrafts true abilities..

Maybe the IAF is putting some constructive pressure on HAL by not "committing" to a particular "number" of aircraft.. HAL has had a habit of "slackening" and becoming complacent with assured deals..
THe LCA cannot be choked.. Too much rides on this program..Anyways I will get a confirmation on that..

P.S: you sure the FIRST test flight of the J-10 was in 98'? I thought the J-10 program has been going since the late 80's..

[edit on 16-7-2005 by Daedalus3]



posted on Jul, 17 2005 @ 12:23 AM
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Originally posted by Daedalus3
hmm.. I will do some homegorwn research and let you know of the ture impending situation depending on level of classification..

Btw.. I'll have all you critics out there know that 400 or so hours of testing is still very little..You need to have at least 1000+ hours before you can get a good assessment of the aircrafts true abilities..


the problem is that the LCA is just doing noraml flying with the 400flights and without missile pythons. 400fights to test the stablility of the plane, come on



P.S: you sure the FIRST test flight of the J-10 was in 98'? I thought the J-10 program has been going since the late 80's..


the design was started in 1988. the first flight was in 98



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