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The Meaning of Torture

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posted on Jul, 15 2005 @ 09:23 AM
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See this man? Ever see him before or even heard his name? No you haven’t. Well he is Lt. Colonel Earl Cobeil



He died at the hand of his keeper while he was a POW. That keeper, by coincidence, was Fidel Castro.

But soon you will all know about a guy named "Mohamed al-Qahtani", he was supposed to meet Mohamed Atta at the airport on the morning of September 11, 2001 but was turned away by an alert baggage checker and later captured. We all know what Mr. Atta and his partners did later that day.

Well, Mohamed al-Qahtani will be very well known soon because he was forced into humiliating situations at Gitmo. He was treated pretty poorly in fact. They made him wear a bra in order to get him to speak. Mr. Mohamed al-Qahtani of course is going to sue over his treatment, and Amnesty International is outraged over his treatment and has called Gitmo a gulag as a result.

But let’s get back to this American that we never heard about before. The American that Amnesty International has yet to mention or even acknowledge, Lt. Colonel Earl Cobeil.

You see, Fidel Castro ran an experiment in Hanoi during the Vietnam War called the "Cuban Project" at a POW camp called the "Zoo". That’s were Lt. Colonel Earl Cobeil was tortured so abusively and for such durations by Castro himself that he later died. His fellow POW's have also been beaten and tortured in ways most humans can hardly imagine, let alone endure.

Read the story here about what this man endured before his death


"...The man [Cobeil] could barely walk; he shuffled slowly, painfully. His clothes were torn to shreds. He was bleeding everywhere, terribly swollen, and a dirty, yellowish black and purple from head to toe. The man’s head was down; he made no attempt to look at anyone. . . .He stood unmoving, his head down. Fidel smashed a fist into the man’s face, driving him against the wall. Then he was brought to the center of the room and made to get down onto his knees. Screaming in rage, Fidel took a length of black rubber hose from a guard and lashed it as hard as he could into the man’s face. The prisoner did not react; he did not cry out or even blink an eye. His failure to react seemed to fuel Fidel’s rage and again he whipped the rubber hose across the man’s face. . . .

Again and again and again, a dozen times, Fidel smashed the man’s face with the hose. Not once did the fearsome abuse elicit the slightest response from the prisoner. . . .His body was ripped and torn everywhere; hell cuffs appeared almost to have severed the wrists, strap marks still wound around the arms all the way to the shoulders, slivers of bamboo were embedded in the bloodied shins and there were what appeared to be tread marks from the hose across the chest, back, and legs...."


Where am I going with this?

Where is the outrage over this treatment? Where is the outrage over this entire POW camp? Where are the lawsuits and proclamations of torture from Amnesty International and the world? There aren’t any. You, me, all of use have never even heard a peep about the poor man and his fellows.

But a man that would have crashed a plane into a building with a few dozen of his peers killing thousands was forced to wear a bra and the whole world is outraged.

Has the world become so anti American left wing that atrocities against Americans are ignored while mere humiliations techniques against the USA's clear and obvious enemies are denounced as torture?

I think the world needs to get a grip and opens its eyes.




posted on Jul, 15 2005 @ 09:33 AM
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So because no one reported about this man its ok not to report about other things?
That is what you are implying, if you are not then TELL ME what you are implying.



posted on Jul, 15 2005 @ 09:38 AM
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Originally posted by devilwasp
So because no one reported about this man its ok not to report about other things?
That is what you are implying, if you are not then TELL ME what you are implying.



No. That’s not it. Its that this man endured worse than a 1000 instances at Gitmo, you me and the world know nothing about it. People like you HATE and denounce the USA over humiliation tactics used on terrorists detainee's at Gitmo, but care NOTHING of Americans who endured far far worse. You don’t even mention it. Kind of hypocritical don’t you think? If a guy being forced to wear a bra offends you, you would think that this Lt.'s death at the hands of brutal torturer would.

But you could care less about him because it doesnt mesh with your agenda of hate against the USA. And your reply shows it.


Why not: "That poor man, thats a terrible thing, I am horrified about what happenned to him and his fellow POW's. There should be mass outrage and investigations!! But that doesnt excuse what happens at Gitmo"

But a reply by you like that would give an American some credit, and that doesnt fit your hate.



[edit on 15-7-2005 by skippytjc]



posted on Jul, 15 2005 @ 09:45 AM
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Originally posted by skippytjc
No. That’s not it. Its that this man endured worse than a 1000 instances at Gitmo, you me and the world know nothing about it.

No?
Thats what it sounds like.
Oh BTW is that physcological or physical?



People like you HATE and denounce the USA over humiliation tactics used on terrorists detainee's at Gitmo, but care NOTHING of Americans who endured far far worse. You don’t even mention it. Kind of hypocritical don’t you think? If a guy being forced to wear a bra offends you, you would think that this Lt.'s death at the hands of brutal torturer would.

Firstly get to know me before you judge me, secondly I hate anyone that would cause uneeded or unjustified harm to anyperson.
Humiliation tactics are the tacitcs of a bully and we are not supposed to be bully's.
Thirdly I think the things that happened to this officer are horrible and his captuers should be held accountable.


But you could care less about him because it doesnt mesh with your agenda of hate against the USA. And your reply shows it.

Yet again, get to know me before trying to fight me.
I dont hate america, I might not like some of their tactics and their methods or this actions BUT that does not mean I hate them.
My reply is questioning your post, you still have not answered my question.



posted on Jul, 15 2005 @ 09:57 AM
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Its funny Devil, you have yet to comment on Lt. Colonel Earl Cobeil treatment. Funny how that works...

Lets see:

Lt. Colonel Earl Cobeil was tortured to death for the sake of torture, he was an American.....Amnesty is mum and the world knows nothing about it. And you still don’t comment on his torture...Mmmm…

But

Mohamed al-Qahtani is a terrorist out to kill Americans and he was made to wear a bra. Amnesty international is outraged and compared his holding to the Gulag and the world is outraged over his treatment. Mmm...

Funny how all this adds up... Lets see, what’s the difference? Wait, I see it now: Mohamed al-Qahtani isn’t American and Lt. Colonel Earl Cobeil is. That must be it, as there is no contest who was treated the worst, that must be it.


I guess negative things that happen to Americans don’t mean anything, only the things that are perceived as negative at the hands of Americans mean anything. Even if the magnitude of the negative act is dwarfed in comparison.

I keep forgetting its against the rules to be pro American on these boards, Ill learn someday I guess.



posted on Jul, 15 2005 @ 09:58 AM
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That’s a terrible thing for sure! How sad. I know that kind of thing happened to a lot of good men. Nobody should be tortured.


Originally posted by skippytjc
No. That’s not it. Its that this man endured worse than a 1000 instances at Gitmo, you me and the world know nothing about it. People like you HATE and denounce the USA over humiliation tactics used on terrorists detainee's at Gitmo, but care NOTHING of Americans who endured far far worse. You don’t even mention it. Kind of hypocritical don’t you think? If a guy being forced to wear a bra offends you, you would think that this Lt.'s death at the hands of brutal torturer would.


Soooo… let me try to figure out your point. Because it wasn’t reported in the media, and the world didn’t know about it and become outraged about it, that means we hate the USA because we’re mad about government-sanctioned torture going on today, that we DO know about? And because we didn’t know about this guy, that means we don’t care and that we hate America? …

So to sum up, we’re hypocritical, USA-haters because we didn’t complain about something we didn’t know about? I’m sorry; I don’t follow your logic. But that’s ok, I’m not at all sure I want to.

BTW, the guy being forced to wear a bra doesn’t offend ME, it offends HIM. That’s what makes it torture. If you had any inkling of a desire to understand the culture, you’d know that.

Skippy, Please look at my last post in your terrorism solution thread. Please read it. Then read it again.



posted on Jul, 15 2005 @ 09:58 AM
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Erm, wheres the outcry for this?

If I'm not mistaken, theres about 1000 movies about POW's in vietnam, Cambodia, South America, held and tortured by, vietnameese, cambodians, Peruvians, russians, cubans and even litle green men.

At the time when this all was current, the outcry for it was great, in movies today, the outcry for it remains.

Do you really think its OK to torture people because at some time in the past the Russians, Cubans, Cambodians, Vietnamees or whoever else did it to us too?

Fighting Evil with Evil will make you the Evil that others will fight.



posted on Jul, 15 2005 @ 10:07 AM
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My point of this thread is consistency. I don’t condone any kind of torture. I do not however think Mohamed al-Qahtani was really tortured in the literal sense.

But there cannot be a double standard of outrage on this stuff. There must be world opinion consistency here. I show this story as an example of it.

So the world is outraged over Mohamed al-Qahtani treatment. Fine. But you cannot be outraged over that without giving acknowledgment and outrage over LT Cobeil.

Its easy to see how somebody like me, a proud American, can get angry over the hypocrisy of the disproportionate attention the Mohamed al-Qahtani situation is getting over Americans who have endured far worse.

It makes people like me, think less of the people who selectively show their outrage depending on the nationality of the people involved. Which is clearly the case here.



posted on Jul, 15 2005 @ 10:17 AM
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Originally posted by skippytjc
Its funny Devil, you have yet to comment on Lt. Colonel Earl Cobeil treatment. Funny how that works...

Yeah that whole part about me saying his captuers should be brought to justice part was all just a joke...


Lets see:

Lt. Colonel Earl Cobeil was tortured to death for the sake of torture, he was an American.....Amnesty is mum and the world knows nothing about it. And you still don’t comment on his torture...Mmmm…

Yet again....my justice thing was forgotten?


But

Mohamed al-Qahtani is a terrorist out to kill Americans and he was made to wear a bra. Amnesty international is outraged and compared his holding to the Gulag and the world is outraged over his treatment. Mmm...

I do not know why any agency didnt bring up the officer in question and I will not try and justify that.


Funny how all this adds up... Lets see, what’s the difference? Wait, I see it now: Mohamed al-Qahtani isn’t American and Lt. Colonel Earl Cobeil is. That must be it, as there is no contest who was treated the worst, that must be it.

Oh here we go...



I guess negative things that happen to Americans don’t mean anything, only the things that are perceived as negative at the hands of Americans mean anything. Even if the magnitude of the negative act is dwarfed in comparison.

Oh yeah the whole british contingent to the USA after 9/11 didnt mean anything.


I keep forgetting its against the rules to be pro American on these boards, Ill learn someday I guess.

Yeah the whole pro-US movement on this board is dead, the whole world is against the US.
Thats why british troops are fighting and dieing beside american ones.
Gee must be there for a little visit huh?

Skippy,

what makes you think I am anti US?
Because I responded negatively to your post?


[edit on 26/02/2005 by devilwasp]



posted on Jul, 15 2005 @ 10:22 AM
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Originally posted by skippytjc
My point of this thread is consistency. I don’t condone any kind of torture. I do not however think Mohamed al-Qahtani was really tortured in the literal sense.

But there cannot be a double standard of outrage on this stuff. There must be world opinion consistency here. I show this story as an example of it.


I see. You have the opinion that 'literal torture' is physical pain, right?

Can you understand how it would be torture to one man to see the US Flag shat upon and to another, it would not be torture, but entertainment?

Can you understand that to one man, a Qu'ran being flushed down the toilet would be worse than ANY physical torture? He'd rather die a terrible and painful death than to see that happen?

Can you understand how terribly embarrassing it might be for one man to show his genitals to a strange woman but to another it might be fun?

Can you understand that different cultures around the world might have different ideas of torture? I'm no torture expert, but I have the intelligence and education to surmise that a 'world-consensus' on torture is not possible. One man's torture is another man's delight.



posted on Jul, 15 2005 @ 10:24 AM
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What can we say? Except that your sadly and extremely missinformed and interpret something on a false basis.

There is and was a public disgust when thinking about what happend to soldiers in Vietnam, Cambodia, South America and other places in the world. There wasn't much of an outcry because they only got to know about it decades after the facts.

The actual problem is, the US kept the lid on most of these things for quite a long time, especialy with Vietnam and CIA and DEA operations(which are still classified), where the US administration didn't want the people to know the soldiers had to go trough this, there was already way to much oposition to the war as is, they didn't want the people to know the soldiers were not only dying, but literaly rotting away in POW camps. It was only in movies starting from the early 80s to now that we would see these things. And in those cases, the focus wasn't much on the torture and such, but mainly on how heroic the americans were in doing black ops and trying to influence other nations.

You can't blame the people for what the goverment tried to keep the lid on. And you can't expect the people to cry out about things they are kept from knowing. And you can expect people to even less cry out about things when they get to know about them decades after the facts.

Now, to compare apples with apples instead of apples with oranges, comparing current history with current history, wasn't there a massive outcry about the torture, decapitation, murder and maiming of POW's and hostages in Iraq?

Yes sir, there most definatly was.

There are still questions about cases like Nick Berg, because it stinks of Psyops, but still, people did cry out about it, were horified about it. And looking at the activity of threads concerning it, people are still disgusted about it.







 
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