Rove Learned About Plame From Journalists

Here is an article written by the former vice-president of CBS and Gannett giving a Journalism101 class on this matter:

“Outing” a CIA agent is only a crime if the agent is under cover overseas or has been during the past five years. This law was created to prevent the assassinations of CIA agents on foreign shores as had been caused by Philip Agee in 1978 who listed CIA agents undercover in foreign cities, causing the murder of some.

With these two realities in mind, only a propagandist, who really and unreasonable hates President Bush, could tell such lies about Karl Rove!

1. Rove did not call a reporter to leak something. The reporter called Rove to verify a story about Joseph Wilson, which was not true. Rove tried to explain that neither President Bush nor Vice-President Cheney authorized his trip to Niger; but that it was someone in the CIA who had. Rove then said, in an effort to keep the reporter from going with a false story, that apparently Wilson’s wife worked for the CIA and it was she who had recommended him.

2. It was Novak who actually put the name, “Valerie Plame” into the newspaper and he had called the CIA to be sure that it was OK to reveal her name. Since she was NOT a covert agent, the CIA did not stop him. Joseph Wilson, himself, was recorded as saying that Novak did not “out” his wife wrongly as she was NOT a covert agent at the time. Actually, Plame has been in management at the CIA as a known CIA employee since the days she dated and married Wilson!

Based on these two facts, let’s stop the false attacks on Rove and Bush. The only agent that has been truly “outed” is Fulton Armstrong—not by Rove, but by Senator John Kerry, according to a story in Newsmax on 7/14/2005. Where are Pelosi, Reid and Kennedy now? Why are they so quiet about this?

The Plame Affair: When is a 'Leak' a Covert Action?

Let me get this straight, a friend of mine asserted:
Watergate 'leaks' are good.
Plamegate 'leaks' are bad.
Does the word 'hypocrisy' compute in this equation anywhere?





seekerof

.
Valerie Plame was presumably working in the interests of the United States.

Water Gate was a paranoid president commiting criminal acts of political and personal sabotage.

Short answer included for simple minds:

Water Gate leaks = Good

Plame leaks = Bad

(Anyone remember Frankenstien on SNL? Fire = Bad)
.

it's amazing to me just how many want to make this whole thing out to be nothing...
I guess to them, it would be perfectly okay if someone came up to me and told me that an aquitance of mine was an undercover agent if I then proceeded to spread the word all over town.....even though I have no idea just what that undercover agent is doing here, how many others are linked up with him, or how many might be KILLED when the cover was blown...after all, I was just spreading the gossip, right?

I don't think that the bush administration knew that Plume was connected to that fake buisiness front. I think that they just wanted to shut her husband up, knew that she worked at the cia and found out that it was her who REFERRED her husband to her superiors, who then THEY decided to send him to NIGER. The fact that her name linked to a cia front was an unexpected result that probably surprised them. and, now they are just trying to scramble any way they can to shift the blame elsewhere.

Rove should have kept his mouth shut, no matter where that information came from, just like if someone dropped the name of an agent into my lap, I would be wrong to pass it along to others. That "moral highground" looks more and more like a sink hole every day!

Originally posted by dawnstar
or how many might be KILLED when the cover was blown...

Killed in her cubicle at Langley?

She wasn't undercover or covert by any stretch of the imagination.

No one's life was ever in danger.

dj - NO! What this does is add one more charge against him - PERJURY.

Please see what Matthew Cooper is stating Rove said to him in that conversation:

www.msnbc.msn.com...

Time correspondent Matthew Cooper said he told a grand jury last week that Rove told him the woman worked at the "agency," or CIA, on weapons of mass destruction issues, and ended the call by saying "I've already said too much."

He said Rove did not disclose the woman's name, Valerie Plame, but told him information would be declassified that would cast doubt on the credibility of her husband, former diplomat Joseph Wilson, who had charged the Bush administration with exaggerating the threat of Iraqi weapons of mass destruction programs in making its case for war.

"So did Rove leak Plame's name to me, or tell me she was covert? No. Was it through my conversation with Rove that I learned for the first time that Wilson's wife worked at the CIA and may have been responsible for sending him? Yes. Did Rove say that she worked at the 'agency' on 'WMD'? Yes," Cooper wrote in Time's current edition.

"When he said things would be declassified soon, was that itself impermissible? I don't know. Is any of this a crime? Beats me," Cooper wrote.

He also wrote that he was not certain what Rove meant by commenting he had already said too much.

A top Cheney aide was also among the sources, Cooper said Sunday.

Until last week, the White House had insisted for nearly two years that vice presidential chief of staff Lewis Libby and Rove were not involved in the leaks.

Cooper said on NBC's "Meet the Press" that he spoke to Libby after first learning about Wilson's wife from Rove.

Republicans are responding to the revelations about Rove's role in the leak by saying that the deputy White House chief of staff first heard about Wilson's wife from a reporter.

Sorry for the long quote - but I think it's justified in order to see the ever-changing story coming out of the White House. I don't care if Rove found out she was a CIA agent from the owner of the local donut shop...he used that information in connection with a reference to information that would be released soon in an attempt to discredit her husband who was speaking about "exaggerations in the Iraqi WMD" issue.

Maybe we shouldn't miss the point that the husband of a CIA agent who was directly involved in WMD intel knew the White House was exaggeration the situation!

As a fellow Republican I sure would appreciate a cessation of the ridiculous defense for dirty people.

Here's my questions:

1. Is Rove fired yet?
2. If no, why not?

EDIT: Added link.

[edit on 7-18-2005 by Valhall]

Where do you get perjury from Val?

Rove never said he learned Plame's identity from Cooper (which is what I think you may pointing at).

He probably learned it from Novak or perhaps Miller then repeated it to Cooper.

[edit on 7/18/2005 by djohnsto77]

By the way:

2. If no, why not?

I have my own answer to this. I just want to see if the staunch defenders of Rove and the ilk can come up with it in 3 posts or less.

HINT: It may take a Vince Foster move to take care of this one.

Originally posted by djohnsto77
Where do you get perjury from Val?

Rove never said he learned Plame's identity from Cooper (which is what I think you may pointing at).

He probably learned it from Novak or perhaps Miller then repeated it to Cooper.

[edit on 7/18/2005 by djohnsto77]

Okay dj, have it your way. Then he should be held to the same requirements that the reporters in this case have been held to. He should be forced to reveal his source's name or go to jail in contempt.

It's that simple. This can be EASILY fixed. There can be no two-sided treatment in this. If every farkling person who passed the information on Plame is thrown in jail until they reveal their source, we'll get to the original source, now won't we?

Don't hold your breath dj - even if the unthinkable happens and Rove is treated in the same manner as the reporters - he'll refuse to give a name. Or maybe he'll give a dead man's name...

that would fix it all, wouldn't it?

Deny Ignorance - that includes admitting when dirty crap is happening in your own party.

Please explain how Rove "outed" a CIA operative when the 'operative' had already been "outed"?




seekerof

Originally posted by Seekerof
Please explain how Rove "outed" a CIA operative when the 'operative' had already been "outed"?




seekerof

Prove she had already been outed.

Prove Rove "outed" the CIA operative.

Bear this in mind:

In journalism, the definition of “leak” suggests that it is applied to government officials who purposely give reporters secret or confidential information in order to publicize something they do not like so that it can be defeated before being voted upon.
“Outing” a CIA agent is only a crime if the agent is under cover overseas or has been during the past five years. This law was created to prevent the assassinations of CIA agents on foreign shores as had been caused by Philip Agee in 1978 who listed CIA agents undercover in foreign cities, causing the murder of some.

Link provided by me, two posts up.





seekerof

Originally posted by Seekerof
Prove Rove "outed" the CIA operative.

Bear this in mind:

In journalism, the definition of “leak” suggests that it is applied to government officials who purposely give reporters secret or confidential information in order to publicize something they do not like so that it can be defeated before being voted upon.
“Outing” a CIA agent is only a crime if the agent is under cover overseas or has been during the past five years. This law was created to prevent the assassinations of CIA agents on foreign shores as had been caused by Philip Agee in 1978 who listed CIA agents undercover in foreign cities, causing the murder of some.

Link provided by me, two posts up.

You and dj are officially embarrassing the heck out of me. See my post two or three up - I gave the step by step way in which Rove can prove he didn't out her. He just needs to be required to produce his source's name.

[edit on 7-18-2005 by Valhall]

Parse - transitive and intransitive verb describe grammatical role of word: to describe the grammatical role of a word in a sentence, or undergo this process

The definition of sexual relations? Hello, McFly?
If I'm ever caught in bed with another woman, I know where to call!

Time to stop wearing the team colors, boys......it's a flagarant foul, no matter how you parse words like "outed", "leaked" or "messianic complex".....this was dirty - is dirty - and needs to be made an example of. You are some of the biggest advocates about moving the political discourse out of the mud room. Yet.....
To take the position that nothing wrong has occured, after so many GOP on GOP examples of vindictive politics centered on the personal distruction of dissenters, is whistling past the graveyard.....poorly, and will further enable bloodlust level mud.

Originally posted by djohnsto77

Originally posted by dawnstar
or how many might be KILLED when the cover was blown...

Killed in her cubicle at Langley?

She wasn't undercover or covert by any stretch of the imagination.

No one's life was ever in danger.

her name led to the release of a business that was basically a cia front investigating wmd's by what I understand....which led to how many more names???

Prove to me no one was killed!!!

dawnstar, have you even bothered to read the law that has been posted in this thread multiple times?

There's no way Plame was a covert agent as defined by the law:

www4.law.cornell.edu...

quoting from dj's own source that he references several times in this thread:

www.sourcewatch.org...

"(c) Disclosure of information by persons in course of pattern of activities intended to identify and expose covert agents. Whoever, in the course of a pattern of activities intended to identify and expose covert agents and with reason to believe that such activities would impair or impede the foreign intelligence activities of the United States, discloses any information that identifies an individual as a covert agent to any individual not authorized to receive classified information, knowing that the information disclosed so identifies such individual and that the United States is taking affirmative measures to conceal such individual's classified intelligence relationship to the United States, shall be fined under title 18 or imprisoned not more than three years, or both. "

quoting Cooper again:

He said Rove did not disclose the woman's name, Valerie Plame, but told him information would be declassified that would cast doubt on the credibility of her husband, former diplomat Joseph Wilson, who had charged the Bush administration with exaggerating the threat of Iraqi weapons of mass destruction programs in making its case for war.

Sounds very close to intentionally leaking this information for the sole purpose of jacking with intel. Please note that dj's source does not say - but if the jacking with intel is to further the White House cause - EVERYTHING'S OKIE DOKIE!

Drilling deeper into dj's source:

www.sourcewatch.org...

Unauthorized [sic] disclosure, in the context of information necessary to preserve and maintain a country's national security -- often refered to in the vernacular as a leak -- is obviously a matter of deep concern.

Valerie Plame
On July 14, 2003, the name of Valerie Plame, wife of retired Ambassador Joseph C. Wilson IV, was leaked by columnist Robert Novak as a CIA covert operative.

Seems your source is saying this was a leak, it was an unauthorized disclosure and ...

"(d) Imposition of consecutive sentences. A term of imprisonment imposed under this section shall be consecutive to any other sentence of imprisonment."

Looks like Rove needs to go to jail if he doesn't give up the alleged reporter's name.

I believe he signed a paper that might have said he agreed not to do such things....

but, let's say that me, your average american citizen actually did have the name of an "agent" that was working undercover here in the US....are you saying that it would be perfectly acceptable for me to post their picture on the web, give his name, his address, and what I knew about the work he was doing for the world to see, or to give this information to someone else so they could....
what if I really didn't know all of what he was up to, just bits and peices that seemed to suggest he was only investigating IRS infractions...but in reality, it was actually leading into more serious crimes involving funding of terrorist operations...
still okay?

plame's name led to the disclosure of a cia front.....a business that many agents were using to cover their actual role. so, I don't see where anyone on these boards could say for certain just what her role was, or what kind of harm was done.

Yes, but the point is the definition of covert agent which is made clear here. Valarie Plame doesn't meet those requirements, therefore wasn't a covert agent as defined by the law. So even Rove did all those things above, he didn't break the law since Plame wasn't a covert agent.

Your source (the one I referenced) states that the leak of her as a CIA agent was an unauthorized disclosure. It states that an unauthorized disclosure is a leak. It states that there is a prison sentence associated with this activity.

Are we only to take the snippets of your source that work to bolster this defense of Rove and reject those that hurt him?

Anyone defending the blabbermouths who outed Valerie Plame do not seem to grasp the serious consequenses for those who are still in the field.

Now, every single person she ever worked with is at risk.

This is why The Department of Justice opened the investigation.

I simply can not understand how anyone with a resonable amount of common sense
can't see how corrupt our leadership has become.

They will stop at nothing to achieve their agenda.