The world's best military ever

With respect, what are we judgeing this on?
Tech?
Training?
Ability?
Logistics?

Originally posted by devilwasp
With respect, what are we judgeing this on?

Tech, training, logistics, and accomplishments.

Originally posted by AtheiX
so if you're saying that the British army was the best or one of the best, you must be joking.

Awwww..... don't be TOO jealous Athe..... the bitter undercurrent reeks from you like raw fish.

Rourkes Drift, El Alamein, Waterloo, Agincourt.... I bet you conveniently forget to mention these when you rant off about British military history. Note how you base it primarily on land forces too......

So you have a Germanocentric view of the world. Well, heres a few things for you to chow on:

We sunk the Bismark (thats gotta HURT)
We beat you at El Alamein
We successfully defeated an invading airforce that was superior in tech and numbers in the Battle of Britain.
With our American and Canadian and Free European allies we cracked the 'unbreakable' Fortress Europe.

And please Athe don't try and come back with a host of things where the British military has screwed up, because i think that unlike you I can actually admit when things go bad.

Should you attempt to use the tactic above, I think it only fair I warn you: I will actually laugh in your face.

Originally posted by Daystar
Awwww..... don't be TOO jealous Athe..... the bitter undercurrent reeks from you like raw fish.

I'm not jealous. Of what should I be jealous?

Originally posted by Daystar
Rourkes Drift, El Alamein, Waterloo, Agincourt....

These are only single battles. But military history is judged by who won the whole wars. And England LOST the Hundred Years War. Apart from that, you didn't win the battle of Waterloo alone.

Originally posted by Daystar
I bet you conveniently forget to mention these when you rant off about British military history. Note how you base it primarily on land forces too......

Originally posted by Daystar
So you have a Germanocentric view of the world.

No.

Originally posted by Daystar
Well, heres a few things for you to chow on:

We sunk the Bismark (thats gotta HURT)
We beat you at El Alamein

Again, you're mentioning single battles. But if you want to argue with me that way, then I remind you that we defeated you at Tobruk, we imprisoned your king Richard the Lionheart and we sunk a lot of your ships during WWI and WWII. But I'm not going to argue with you that way.

Originally posted by Daystar
We successfully defeated an invading airforce that was superior in tech and numbers in the Battle of Britain.

Not in tech. You defended yourself against Luftwaffe because most of the planes Luftwaffe had were bombers, while most of the planes the British Air Force had were fighters.
With our American and Canadian and Free European allies we cracked the 'unbreakable' Fortress Europe.

Originally posted by Daystar
Should you attempt to use the tactic above, I think it only fair I warn you: I will actually laugh in your face.

I don't care if you laugh at me or not, you're not someone whose laugh would worry me.

Here's the British military history.

The Roman Conquest
England was conquered by the Romans, enough said.

Ethelred II’s fall
During the reign of Ethelred II, a weak Saxon king, England has been taken over by the king of Denmark.

Danish rule
After the death of a Saxon king Edmund II, Denmark took over England again.

Normandian Conquest
England was conquered by William the Conqueror, Prince of Normandy.

Richard the Lionheart’s ransom
During the 3rd Crusade, Richard the Lionheart’s army has insulted the flag of Leopold the Prince of Austria. Leopold avenged this insult – when Richard was on his way back to England, Leopold imprisoned him and forced him to consider himself dependent on the Emperor of Germany and pay 100,000 byzants (or whatever currency that was) of ransom.

War against France in 1214 century
Both the English King John and the German Emperor Otto IV were defeated. France became one of the few countries that have defeated more than one country during one war.

Papal Interdict upon England
Pope Innocent III instituted an interdict upon England which he canceled when John considered himself dependent of the Pope.

The Hundred Years War
England has been defeated and its only continental possession on the continent was Calais. Burgundy, England’s ally, decided to change sides before the war ended.

American Revolution
Lost, enough said. This leads to the First Rule of American warfare: We can always defeat the English (which is identical to the First Rules of the Italians, the Danishmen and the Normandians).

Wars against the French Revolution
Both England and other enemies of the French Revolution (for example Prussia and Austria) have been defeated.

Napoleonic Wars
It took around 15 years for Napoleon’s enemies to defeat him. England didn’t win these wars alone. Prussia, Austria and some other countries also participated in fighting against Napoleon. And if it wasn’t for the Prussian general Gebhard Bluecher, who helped Prince Wellington in the last minute, Prince Wellington would be defeated. He was about to lose, but in the last moment, the Prussian army entered the field of the battle and saved Prince Wellington.

The Crimean War
Won, not alone. England won together with France, Austria and Turkey.

The Opium Wars against China
Won, but not without the help of France, Germany, Russia and Japan.

World War I
Great Britain won, but not alone. The French also saw a lot of action. The Americans and the Italians also saw some action. This leads to the First Rule of British warfare: Great Britain wins only when at least 2 other countries help GB.

World War II
If the US hadn’t supported Great Britain, Great Britain would be defeated. That’s how GB won: with the help of Uncle Sam from behind with the ocean, who not only actively took part in war against Germany since 1943, but also since 1939 conducted the “cash and carry” policy, and since 1941 conducted the “lend-lease” policy.

War with Argentina
Finally, a war that the British won on their own, which is the exception to the First Rule of British warfare.


[edit on 16-7-2005 by AtheiX]

[edit on 16-7-2005 by AtheiX]

Originally posted by AtheiX
Tech, training, logistics, and accomplishments.

Then with respect the royal marine comandos are the best.
They have the best technology in the world.
Best paid infantrymen in the world.
Best trained since everyone of them is a comando.
They have thier own logistics corp that even the USMC cant match in efficiency.
Acomplished the first air to sea boarding, pulled off some of the greatest raids in human history.


[edit on 26/02/2005 by devilwasp]

Originally posted by AtheiX
Here's the British military history.

ROFLMFAO @ you

The Roman Conquest
England was conquered by the Romans, enough said.

So was Germany. Enough Said.

Ethelred II’s fall
During the reign of Ethelred II, a weak Saxon king, England has been taken over by the king of Denmark.

Danish rule
After the death of a Saxon king Edmund II, Denmark took over England again.

Hehehee

Thats great..... look into the history and politics of the time and you will see why it was easy for Denmark.

Normandian Conquest
England was conquered by William the Conqueror, Prince of Normandy.

So it was. But like I said I can admit military failures. Can you though?

Richard the Lionheart’s ransom
During the 3rd Crusade, Richard the Lionheart’s army has insulted the flag of Leopold the Prince of Austria. Leopold avenged this insult – when Richard was on his way back to England, Leopold imprisoned him and forced him to consider himself dependent on the Emperor of Germany and pay 100,000 byzants (or whatever currency that was) of ransom.

Fair enough. I admit I would be a little pissed if someone dissed my colours.

The Hundred Years War
England has been defeated and its only continental possession on the continent was Calais. Burgundy, England’s ally, decided to change sides before the war ended.

The irony here being that the French territories included vast swathes of Norman land, and hence British land (seeing on how you are so keen to harp on about the Normans).

American Revolution
Lost, enough said. This leads to the First Rule of American warfare: We can always defeat the English (which is identical to the First Rules of the Italians, the Danishmen and the Normandians).

Oh please......

The US may have won its independance fair enough. but you conveniently forget the small matter of us reinvading and torching the first White House.

As for the Italians...... ROFL...... if Rommel hadnt arrived, it would have been a cakewalk for the British in North Africa. Convenient how you should forget this. And just in case you mean the Romans, as I suspect you do, don't get excited: most people in Europe got beaten by the Romans.

The Normans...... thats Normans not "Normandians"... conquered England, fine. And when they were settled in they built a nation that hasn't been conquered since. Can you say the same for Germany? I think not. Everyone and their dog has had a run through Germany, from the Soviet Union to the Roman Empire.

And yes the Vikings settled here. and they contributed to the country rather than the popular notion that they only came here for the raiding.

Napoleonic Wars
It took around 15 years for Napoleon’s enemies to defeat him. England didn’t win these wars alone. Prussia, Austria and some other countries also participated in fighting against Napoleon.

And at what point did I say that the British alone defeated Napoleon? Eh I guess what I said is open to your interpretation, wrong as it may be.

Oh and Wellington wasn't a Prince.

The Crimean War
Won, not alone. England won together with France, Austria and Turkey.

The Opium Wars against China
Won, but not without the help of France, Germany, Russia and Japan.

World War I
Great Britain won, but not alone. The French also saw a lot of action. The Americans and the Italians also saw some action. This leads to the First Rule of British warfare: Great Britain wins only when at least 2 other countries help GB.

World War II
If the US hadn’t supported Great Britain, Great Britain would be defeated. That’s how GB won: with the help of Uncle Sam from behind with the ocean, who not only actively took part in war against Germany since 1943, but also since 1939 conducted the “cash and carry” policy, and since 1941 conducted the “lend-lease” policy.

An awful lot of wins there Athe...... you must be going soft.

War with Argentina
Finally, a war that the British won on their own, which is the exception to the First Rule of British warfare.

LOL..... you don't half talk from the wrong hole Athe. But hey, like I said, the bitter undercurrent wafts from your words like raw fish fresh from a trawler.

Originally posted by Daystar

The Roman Conquest
England was conquered by the Romans, enough said.

So was Germany. Enough Said.

No. The Romans managed to conquer only the left bank of the Rhine river. While they conquered all of England.

Originally posted by Daystar
Hehehee

Thats great..... look into the history and politics of the time and you will see why it was easy for Denmark.

The weakness of these kings made it easy for Denmark. Anyway, no matter because of what reason, at both of those times England was taken over.

Originally posted by Daystar
And when they were settled in they built a nation that hasn't been conquered since. Can you say the same for Germany? I think not.

We Germans have been conquered only twice - by Charlemagne by the anti-German coalition during WWII.

Originally posted by Daystar
Everyone and their dog has had a run through Germany, from the Soviet Union to the Roman Empire.

Not truth. As I already said, we Germans have been conquered only twice - by Charlemagne and by the anti-German coalition during WWII. And as I already said, the Romans managed to conquer only the left bank of the Rhine river.

You think we Germans were conquered by everyone? Here's German military history.

Roman conquest
Romans conquered only the left bank of the Rhine river.

War with the Huns
The Germanics together with the Romans defeated Attilla. This was Attilla’s only defeat.

Fall of Rome
Germanic tribes defeated Rome.

Charlemagne’s conquest
Frankish king Charlemagne conquered Germany.

Conquests of German emperors in the Middle Ages
German Emperors managed to conquer and make dependent the following territories: Poland (which sometimes gained independence), Czech principality, West Pomerania and Sicille and they also managed to acquire the Jerusalem Kingdom for a short time.

3rd Crusade
Won, together with the French, the English and the Italians.

Fighting for “Dominium Mundi”
It took more than 150 years for the Popes to defeat the German emperors as rivals for world domination. However the Popes didn’t gain world domination either.

The Thirty Years War (1618-1648)
Only the catholic part of Germany lost.

War over Austrian Succession
While the Prussian king didn’t end the existence of the Austrian Empire, he defeated Austria and took over Silesia – a province that previously belonged to Austria.

Partitions of Poland
Together with Austria and Russia, Prussia has defeated Poland and the three victorious countries took over all of Polish territory. Poland stopped to exist for 123 years.

Napoleonic Wars
Won. Regarding battle of Waterloo it must be remembered that if the Prussian General Gebhard Bluecher didn’t help Prince Wellington, Prince Wellington would be defeated.

War against Denmark (1864)
Prussia and Austria defeated Denmark.

War against Austria (1866)
Prussia has defeated Austria.

War against France (1870-1871)
Prussia defeated France. But our chancellor Otto von Bismarck has published offensive content in the newspapers so the French had no choice but to declare war on us.

World War I (1914-1918)
Lost.

World War II (1939-1945)
The German 3rd Reich lost the war that it has declared on most of the world. But it took 6 years for the Allies to defeat the 3rd Reich, and before that happened, the 3rd Reich managed to conquer most of Europe, including Poland, western parts of the European part of the USSR, France, Norway and Denmark.


[edit on 16-7-2005 by AtheiX]

Originally posted by devilwasp
Then with respect the royal marine comandos are the best.

That is presumptuous! There is no one single unit that is the "best" - all elite units such as those mentioned above are excellent. Some are better at certain things, while other are better at others. The proof is in the pudding - it is the results that count. If a given team can accomplish a hostage rescue mission with no loss of hostages and no casualties, it has done its job - it has done the "best" that can be done.

Originally posted by devilwasp
They have the best technology in the world.

No they dont, they merely have the best weapon in the world!

Originally posted by devilwasp
Best paid infantrymen in the world.

What does that have to do with anything? Hitmen are paid more does that mean they are better?

Originally posted by devilwasp
Best trained since everyone of them is a comando.

The same applies to the Indian, pakistani, Australian, etc SFG's.
Do you think that the US Navy Seals or the RAngers or the US Army Special Forces is anyless trained?

Originally posted by devilwasp
They have thier own logistics corp that even the USMC cant match in efficiency.

So do the US Army Special Forces Group!

Originally posted by devilwasp
Acomplished the first air to sea boarding, pulled off some of the greatest raids in human history.

That is truly an accoplishment of the RMC but that was ages ago!
Also a truly great raid is never known to have occured!

Originally posted by AtheiX
No. The Romans managed to conquer only the left bank of the Rhine river. While they conquered all of England.

Actually they didnt get all of England Athe..... Cornwall and Devon ring any bells in your extensive library of knowledge? And seeing as we are discussing British military history rather than just English, we should include the Scottish and the Welsh as well as small pockets of Celts in East Anglia

We Germans have been conquered only once - by the anti-German coalition during WWII.

Anti German.... rofl..... Athe, you have stepped in it there. The Allies were not Anti-German they were Anti-Nazi.... please distinguish, so as not to make us all out to be anti-German racists. Or maybe you intend as such? Answers on a postcard please.

Everyone and their dog has had a run through Germany, from the Soviet Union to the Roman Empire.

Not truth. As I already said, we Germans have been conquered only once - during WWII. And as I already said, the Romans managed to conquer only the left bank of the Rhine river.

I stand by my statement.... Napoleon is perhaps another name i should have put on that list.... Didn't he march several armies through Germany?

So lets review:

The Soviet Union
The Western Allies
The Roman Empire
Napoleon

I am also pretty certain that Atilla was from further east than Germany too and he took a route to Rome through Germany right?

And what about the Vikings? Didnt they once control a slice of Germany adjacent to the Danish border?

Oh but daystar it only counts as a loss for germany if every valley hill and tree are lost. However for anyone else if they give up so much as one foot of their territory to the germans the germans have won.... How dare you defile the good name of an empire that never so much as managed to put together a lasting central government until the late 1800's !!!!

Without a doubt the Mongols under G.K. have to be the best military force when comparing how they fared against their contemporaries.

Next, in my opinion would be the Macedonians under Alexander the Great.

Strange the the two best fighting forces realatively collapsed after the deaths of their great leaders and commanders.

After those two armies I would have to think quite a bit for number 3.

Originally posted by chinawhite
they were fighting barbaric tribes and not fighting another empie of equal strenght. i do not deny that they had a very well oragnized army and brilliant equipment. but they never faced a empire of eual strenght or close to it

Does not matter. At the height of thier power during thier era, they were top dog.

BTW, your comment above: SO what if the Roman army was mixed race? Seemed to recall a guy promoting that type of agenda... What was his name again????

hmmmm ... I think that more qualifications are needed in order to make fair and relevent comparisons.

... because it really depends on the context and criteria ...

For example ... if "Worlds best military ever" is taken in an absolute sense ... then (at present) the U.S millitary would win handily.

I am not saying this because I am a fanatical patriot ... but merely to underscore the principle of technological advancement (who ever has the most significantly advanced tech, resources and the support infrastructure should have an enormous advantage). After all, it would be rather pointless to say for example ... the German Army of WWII could decimate Ghengis Khan and the "horde".

So, for the sake of argument, take out the immediate present and create a list of criteria that can be quatified ... and placed into a definable context.

for example

Area of absolute control by conquest or assimilation? (Square Km)
Uninterupted control of said territory (Years)
Level of tech compared to foes (some kind of lethality index linked to kill ratio)
Number of victories vs losses (Ratio distilled down to coefficient where "1" equals no loss ... technically unbeaten)
Kill ratio of force or individual
Spectrum of millitary prowess (Air, Sea, Land)

... and a host of other variables that I have not thought of at this moment ...

With such a guideline, IMO any assertion would be more credible and definable ... without an excess of ethnocentric bias or prejudice.

LCKob

[edit on 16-7-2005 by LCKob]

[edit on 16-7-2005 by LCKob]

[edit on 16-7-2005 by LCKob]

[edit on 16-7-2005 by LCKob]

So..what may be your question to ATS Members?
Dallas

Originally posted by Daystar
And seeing as we are discussing British military history rather than just English, we should include the Scottish and the Welsh as well as small pockets of Celts in East Anglia

England is the most important part of Great Britain. The English conquered Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. However, as you yourself said, Great Britain is not only England but also Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland, so e.g. the Scottish war for independence in the Middle Ages should be counted as a British-on-British war.

Originally posted by Daystar
Anti German.... rofl..... Athe, you have stepped in it there. The Allies were not Anti-German they were Anti-Nazi.... please distinguish, so as not to make us all out to be anti-German racists. Or maybe you intend as such? Answers on a postcard please.

During WWII, every German was considered a Nazi (although that was not truth). And the hostile country was Germany, so it was an anti-German coalition.

Originally posted by Daystar
I stand by my statement....

As I already said, the Romans managed to conquer only the left bank of the Rhine river. That is only a small part of Germany.

Originally posted by Daystar
Napoleon is perhaps another name i should have put on that list.... Didn't he march several armies through Germany?

Napoleon in the end lost. He was defeated by the coalition, to which Prussia belonged. Also, regarding the battle of Waterloo, it must be remembered that the Prussian army did take part in that battle too, and together with the other anti-Napoleonic armies (the British army and the Dutch army) defeated Napoleon.

Originally posted by Daystar
So lets review:

The Soviet Union
The Western Allies
The Roman Empire
Napoleon

As I already said, the Roman Empire only managed to conquer the left bank of the Rhine river, which is only a small part of Germany, and Napoleon lost.

Originally posted by Daystar
I am also pretty certain that Atilla was from further east than Germany too and he took a route to Rome through Germany right?

The Germanics together with the Romans have defeated Attilla. This was Attilla's only defeat. So the Germanic-Roman coalition were the only ones who defeated the Huns.

[edit on 17-7-2005 by AtheiX]

Originally posted by AtheiX

Originally posted by Daystar
And seeing as we are discussing British military history rather than just English, we should include the Scottish and the Welsh as well as small pockets of Celts in East Anglia

England is the most important part of Great Britain. The English conquered Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. However, as you yourself said, Great Britain is not only England but also Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland, so e.g. the Scottish war for independence in the Middle Ages should be counted as a British-on-British war.

Indeed but I was discussing the Roman Empire here, not the Scottish war for independance.

Originally posted by AtheiX

Originally posted by Daystar
Napoleon is perhaps another name i should have put on that list.... Didn't he march several armies through Germany?

Napoleon in the end lost. He was defeated by the coalition, to which Prussia belonged. Also, regarding the battle of Waterloo, it must be remembered that the Prussian army did take part in that battle too, and together with the other anti-Napoleonic armies (the British army and the Dutch army) defeated Napoleon.

You can't have it both ways, the Romans eventually lost in Britain, too. (to the weather I believe, how they longed for those Tuscan summers!)

If we're going to split the kind of hairs you're after, then I guess GERMANY has lost both of its wars. After all, we can't call Prussia "Germany", the Bavarians, Hanoverians et al might object a little and you're talking about different entities here as if they're the same. Just as someone enjoying a Tennants in Glasgow probably wouldn't appreciate being called English.

As for Tobruk, the Diggers beat you there, defeated your beloved Rommel. He could only take it after we went home to defeat the South Seas Detachment.

The British Empire was the world's largets, it existed simultaneously on EVERY continent, thus "the sun never set on the British empire". I'm sure if you add Canada, Australia, New Zealand, the African colonies and India/Pakistan/Bangladesh/Sri Lanka together it's a pretty fair-sized piece of land.

The first rule of Italian warfare? Is that the one that says "Don't bother showing up, they'll forfeit anyway"?

And it wasn't the anti-German coalition, it was the Allied Powers.

Originally posted by HowlrunnerIV

You can't have it both ways, the Romans eventually lost in Britain, too. (to the weather I believe, how they longed for those Tuscan summers!)

But after 400 years ruling there. While the Germanics immediately defended themselves against the Romans, losing only the west bank of the Rhine river.

Originally posted by HowlrunnerIV
After all, we can't call Prussia "Germany", the Bavarians, Hanoverians et al might object a little and you're talking about different entities here as if they're the same.

But Prussia in the end ruled all of Germany.

Originally posted by HowlrunnerIV
As for Tobruk, the Diggers beat you there, defeated your beloved Rommel. He could only take it after we went home to defeat the South Seas Detachment.

Not true. Rommel won.

Originally posted by HowlrunnerIV
The British Empire was the world's largets,

Not true. The world's biggest empire was the Mongolian empire, as I already said.

Originally posted by HowlrunnerIV
it existed simultaneously on EVERY continent, thus "the sun never set on the British empire".

That was said about the empire of the Habsburgs, not about the British colonial empire.

It's pointless to debate with you. You cannot admit being wrong. Thus I'm not going to debate with you.

Regarding wars Germany lost, Germany lost only 4 wars: war with France in 1214 (actually it wasn't lost by Germany, it was lost by a former German emperor when Germany already had a new emperor and allied with France), French Revolutionary war, WWI and WWII.

And all you Britons, get it through your thick skulls.
1) You don't have a glorious military history.
2) You are in no way better the German military, so stop thinking about fighting us, because you would get beaten.

Originally posted by AtheiX
Not true. The world's biggest empire was the Mongolian empire, as I already said.

The World's biggest Empire WAS the British Empire. Temujin's Empire was bigger in Land mass, certainly, but Britian ruled the oceans too.

Originally posted by HowlrunnerIV
it existed simultaneously on EVERY continent, thus "the sun never set on the British empire".

That was said about the empire of the Habsburgs, not about the British colonial empire.

WRONG. Go and actually read up on it Athe..... you may get a shock.

It's pointless to debate with you. You cannot admit being wrong.

Funny that Athe..... We were thinking the same about you and your Germanocentric views.

Nothing wrong with being proud of your country, but my man, you are so supernationalist, that I wouldnt be so surprised if you came out and stated that Germany should rule the world.

And all you Britons, get it through your thick skulls.

seems like you the guy with the thick skull Athe

1) You don't have a glorious military history.
2) You are in no way better the German military,

If that's the case, how comes Germany didnt take over a quarter of the planet?

so stop thinking about fighting us, because you would get beaten.

we dont need to fight you Athe.... winning twice in one hundred years is enough

Originally posted by Daystar


WRONG. Go and actually read up on it Athe..... you may get a shock.

The books say that that was said about the empire of the Habsburgs, not about the British colonial empire.

Originally posted by Daystar
Funny that Athe..... We were thinking the same about you and your Germanocentric views.

I don't have Germanocentric views and I think that the Roman army and the Mongolian army were better than the German military. I'm only pointing out facts - facts that the British military lost many wars, that it is not the world's best military ever, and that it is not better than the German military.

Originally posted by Daystar

1) You don't have a glorious military history.
2) You are in no way better the German military,

If that's the case, how comes Germany didnt take over a quarter of the planet?

We Germans didn't because we had to oppose with the Popes (who wanted world domination) and unite first.

It's not worth debating with you, Daystar. You cannot admit the plain fact that you Britishmen don't have a glorious military history.

Originally posted by Daystar

so stop thinking about fighting us, because you would get beaten.

we dont need to fight you Athe.... winning twice in one hundred years is enough

You have defeated us only once - during WWI. And that was the only time you ever defeated us. And you didn't defeat us alone.
In WWII, you were saved by Uncle Sam from behind the ocean, and you also received financial help from him after the war. (The Russian military contribution should also be remembered.)

[edit on 18-7-2005 by AtheiX]

[edit on 18-7-2005 by AtheiX]