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Killing in the name of Islam

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posted on Jul, 13 2005 @ 05:32 PM
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Mohammed Bouyeri, a baby-faced 27-year-old with dual Dutch-Moroccan nationality, broke his vow not to co-operate with the Amsterdam court by admitting shooting and stabbing his victim last November.

"I take complete responsibility for my actions. I acted purely in the name of my religion," he told its three-strong panel of judges.

"I can assure you that one day, should I be set free, I would do the same, exactly the same." Earlier, Bouyeri had insisted that he did not recognise the authority of any non-Islamic court and forbade his lawyer to mount a defence."



Source


It's interesting that he mentions nothing about occupation, poverty or any other such nonsense. It all comes down to a popular interpretation of a faith. Any comparisons to the crusades or inquisition are complete and total bunk. that was centuries ago. This is now. I think this is one of the more honest looks into the radical Muslim mindset.

Let me emphasise one particular point "I can assure you that one day, should I be set free, I would do the same, exactly the same."

Should we think that the prisoners of Gitmo share the feeling.

[edit on 13-7-2005 by Marid Audran]




posted on Jul, 13 2005 @ 05:40 PM
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I hate when this gets turned into a secular lets hate all faiths for the views of one particular faith so they can avoid the label of bigotry etc. Ignorance! Deny it!



posted on Jul, 13 2005 @ 06:16 PM
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Originally posted by XphilesPhan
I hate when this gets turned into a secular lets hate all faiths for the views of one particular faith so they can avoid the label of bigotry etc. Ignorance! Deny it!


Sorry, I am not exactly clear on what you are saying here. Could you please let me know what you were getting at?



posted on Jul, 13 2005 @ 06:34 PM
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Questiong for clarification:
Marid, you say:
"I think this is one of the more honest looks into the radical Muslim mindset"

What do you mean by this? Radical violent actions taken without remorse? Killing with a religious fervor? And we're not allowed to compare it to the Crusades or Inquisition? Why not? It is the same mindset. Why is it 'bunk' to compare the two? Just because they happened a long time ago, doesn't mean any comparison is nonsense.


Should we think that the prisoners of Gitmo share the feeling.

I suppose some people there do share the feeling. Especially those who are guilty of terrorism of some kind. I doubt the innocent people there share the feeling.

But again, I don't quite get the point. Are you suggesting that we never let them go?

I'm not disagreeing (or agreeing), just trying to clarify.

And XphilesPhan, I'm sorry but I have no idea where you're coming from. I don't know how you got that from Marid's post.



[edit on 13-7-2005 by Benevolent Heretic]



posted on Jul, 14 2005 @ 11:04 AM
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Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
Questiong for clarification:
Marid, you say:
"I think this is one of the more honest looks into the radical Muslim mindset"

What do you mean by this? Radical violent actions taken without remorse? Killing with a religious fervor? And we're not allowed to compare it to the Crusades or Inquisition? Why not? It is the same mindset. Why is it 'bunk' to compare the two? Just because they happened a long time ago, doesn't mean any comparison is nonsense.


Fair enough. I say it's not a valid comparison with the crusades or inquisition because the world is not the same and people are not even really the same. There is close to a thousand years between the crusades and five hundred years for the inquisition. Do I think that those things could happen today? No, not really. Also, the crusades and the inquisition has become a crutch and a soundbite just like nazis and Hitler.

Now do I think something horrible could happen? Yes, but it wouldn't be comparable because of the different environment.

I think it is fascinating because of the religious angle. The fact that he is still convinced that what he did was right. My point is that anytime you get anyone who is so zealous in their beliefs that they can justify it in their minds it is scary. The people bombing abortion clinics 15-20 years ago and still think it was right are scary.


Should we think that the prisoners of Gitmo share the feeling.

I suppose some people there do share the feeling. Especially those who are guilty of terrorism of some kind. I doubt the innocent people there share the feeling.

But again, I don't quite get the point. Are you suggesting that we never let them go?

I'm not disagreeing (or agreeing), just trying to clarify.


Sure, no problem. I saw that towards the end of the day yesterday as I was about to go home so was a bit rushed. I am not really suggesting anything. I pointing out that I think that there are probably people in there who would have killed had they not been locked up and will kill again when they are released. There may be some innocent people in there as well.

It just brings to mind one of the major ideas of the American Judicial system - it's better that 100 guilty men go free than 1 innocent one is deprived of his liberty.

Is that true in the case of murderers? Is it better to release 50 innocent men and 50 guilty men if the guilty men will then kill 1 or 5 or 10 people? Is there a mathematical formula that can be used? When the number of lives saved equals X then it is okay to deny some of their freedom? If those 50 innocent people being locked up saves 50 lives is it okay? What if they save a thousand lives? Does that make a difference?

I really don't have an answer, I was just doing some musing.



And XphilesPhan, I'm sorry but I have no idea where you're coming from. I don't know how you got that from Marid's post.


I'm with you there. Thanks for taking the time to read and respond. Hopefully that will clarify my thinking a bit. For the both of us



posted on Jul, 14 2005 @ 11:26 AM
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It does clarify and thank you so much for your response.

Regarding the released Guantanamo prisoners, I have read that some have in fact returned to terrorism. I guess they released the wrong guys. I don't really trust the whole system at Guantanamo as it doesn't follow our judicial system. It's really a mystery to me. I know some prisoners have been found to have no connection to terrorism and others obviously do.

As far as your musings on the freedom and liberty issue, I'm sure there are plenty of personal opinions on that. Mine is that if there is no indication of connection to a crime, then the person must be released. If there is, let's see it and evaluate the potential danger this person poses on society. If you're going to hold him, charge him with something.



posted on Jul, 14 2005 @ 11:41 AM
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It just brings to mind one of the major ideas of the American Judicial system - it's better that 100 guilty men go free than 1 innocent one is deprived of his liberty.

In our day and age, I think this sentiment has fallen by the wayside. Civil liberties take a backseat to the obsession with vengance & punishment. Frankly I think most people would rather see 100 innocent people get thrown in jail or executed than see one guilty man go free.

In this view, concerns about civil liberties mean you are "soft on crime", and the protections built into the US Constitution are simply burdensome techncalities.

[edit on 7/14/05 by xmotex]



posted on Jul, 14 2005 @ 11:50 AM
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How about he found the film extremely insulting to his beliefs? Not that i would do the same action but i couldn't care less that theo van gogh was killed, he was a waste of space.



posted on Jul, 14 2005 @ 12:15 PM
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i couldn't care less that theo van gogh was killed, he was a waste of space.


His movie was about abuse of women in muslim culture, if the guy found that that insulted his religion what does that say about him?
No one 'deserves' to be murdered least of all some one who was making a factual documentary about abuse of women, he may have been controvertial but he hardly deserved to die.



posted on Jul, 14 2005 @ 12:19 PM
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ok you're right, i'll admit I hardly knew anything about the film, i just heard from someone that it was directly insulting of Islam.



posted on Jul, 14 2005 @ 01:59 PM
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Originally posted by sal88
ok you're right, i'll admit I hardly knew anything about the film, i just heard from someone that it was directly insulting of Islam.


This happens all the time. People take what they hear second hand as the gospel. I had friends who heard second hand all manner of crazy things about Farenheit 9/11 ranging from a slamdunk fact filled expose' to crazy pure fiction and then they got up in arms about it, one of them trying to get a screening for a film she hadn't even seen set up to inform voters and the other trying to get the same unseen film banned until after the election...

Same with the hype around the other big controversial film of last year - The Passion. Basically, I would just implore everyone to reserve judgment until they can make an educated opinion.

This isn't an attack on you at all, Sal, I admire your honesty in saying that you hadn't actually seen it. Most people would just stick to their original statement. My commendation to you!


OYG

posted on Jul, 14 2005 @ 07:29 PM
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How can you not compare what is going on today with the crusades.... We have radical muslims fighting radical christians in the middle east... Wasn't that the crusades? I mean the only difference I can see is the motives of the west really isn't to take back the holy land but still, on the surface that's what it is... You can say the muslims treatment of women can be compared to the Christians treatment of natives of the american continent... Can't those actions be used as facts to back up the American mindset in the middle east? it's just what people talk about that gets more attention... its just different societies fighting to gain more influence...

can't we just be humans?



posted on Jul, 14 2005 @ 09:55 PM
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The point is only 5% of the muslim world hates America/Western World enough to kill themselves or someone else. That figure is just a guesstimate, no sources. This isn't the logical look into the Islamic mindset, it is a look into the mindset of a psychopath.



posted on Jul, 15 2005 @ 10:06 AM
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Heh. I started this thread in the other current events forum because I wasn't exactly sure where it belonged. It was subsequently moved to the War on Terrorism, them to Conspiracies in Religion and then to Faith Spirtuality and Theology...

Glad to see I wasn't the only one not exactly sure where to put this post originally... ;-)



posted on Jul, 15 2005 @ 10:08 AM
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Heh. I started this thread in the other current events forum because I wasn't exactly sure where it belonged. It was subsequently moved to the War on Terrorism, them to Conspiracies in Religion and then to Faith Spirtuality and Theology...

Glad to see I wasn't the only one not exactly sure where to put this post originally... ;-)




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