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The Master Masons and the Origins of Modern Religion

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posted on Jul, 26 2005 @ 12:02 AM
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Originally posted by Nygdan
You know, its funny, because I was just about to hit the 'big quote' warn here right before I read this.


Nygdan is the excessive quote master.. I'm surprised that he didn't get you first!




posted on Jul, 26 2005 @ 12:23 AM
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I've read both The Hiram Key, and The Second Messiah, three times. As far as I can tell, their conjectures are as valid as many others which I have studied. How one receives the books is based largely on what one expects from the books. I bought (and read) these with no preconceptions. Also, in order to accurately digest what they are trying so hard to communicate (and, yes, I found them to "babble incoherently" in certain places), one must look at their work, not as stating facts, but their deductions based on their research (however superficial one may perceive that to be). I also noted numerous references in footnote form in the first book. I acquired these books and read them as well. I do believe that their zeal often got in the way of delivering the material in a more respectable format. After reading many reviews of the first book, I eventually noticed that the most negative ones were from two directions: Those of the Christian faith, and Freemasons. Hmmm, I wonder why.



posted on Jul, 26 2005 @ 12:28 AM
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Originally posted by JustMe74
I'm surprised that he didn't get you first!

Yes, I saw that KL had beaten me to it and I was all like:


*twists moustache*




posted on Jul, 26 2005 @ 02:35 AM
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Originally posted by Lordling
I've read both The Hiram Key, and The Second Messiah, three times.
[snip]


Amazing. It was all I could do to get through it once...and I barely skimmed The Second Messiah. I thought it worse than The Hiram Key.



After reading many reviews of the first book, I eventually noticed that the most negative ones were from two directions: Those of the Christian faith, and Freemasons. Hmmm, I wonder why.


Probably for the reasons that I stated earlier. Those of the Christian faith and thinking Freemasons tend to prefer (supposed) non-fiction books that actually researched rather than mostly made-up. Like I said earlier...interesting read...but legitimate research it "ain't"

But to each his own.



posted on Jul, 26 2005 @ 01:48 PM
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Sorry to differ in opinion with the majority of the brethren, but I found their claims to be quite valid. Although they do make some big assumptions, to me they are logical ones, and the wealth of the book is not the accuracy or lack of in their claims but rather the possibilities.

The thing which was most interesting about the Hiram Key was that in it the authors came to very similar conclusions as I had in my own research of 16 years into the mystery systems, religions, freemasonry and its history. Although not widely accepted, I do feel that the craft is the decendent of the ancient mystery systems, and there is great evidence of this especially on the esoteric level within the craft.



posted on Jul, 26 2005 @ 02:07 PM
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Originally posted by Khonsu
Although not widely accepted, I do feel that the craft is the decendent of the ancient mystery systems, and there is great evidence of this especially on the esoteric level within the craft.


But do you think that the ancient mystery systems eventually developed into Freemasonry, or do you think that Freemasonry was created with that purpose in mind?



posted on Jul, 26 2005 @ 02:21 PM
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Originally posted by Khonsu
and there is great evidence of this especially on the esoteric level within the craft.

But the esoteric 'higher' degrees were invented after the craft had been founded, long after, depending on when a person wants to consider the mason guilds as close enough to masonry. The higher degrees were even added after the craft started going 'speculative', with people like Ashmole gaining membership. Also, isn't it likely that any resemblance to the mystery religions is more a result of the people who crafted the higher degrees purposely trying to incorporate them? I beleive that there are even constituions where Pythagoras is added to the Legend of the Craft, in addition to Solomon and the two Hirams. This could be seen as an attempt to make the craft more like what people thought the mystery religions were like, rather than that there was an actual underground continuation of the mystery religions from the first centuries AD until the victorian and pre-victorian era.

Also, I think that any eplanation seeking the origins of masonry in anything other than stone-working masonry unions needs to explain in a reasonable way why this other group became lowly, blue-collar bricklayers, rather than mystical Preists, Knights Templar, or anything.

(and of course, masonry, as a labour skill, isn't really 'lowly', but lets face it, if you're a knight errant you aren't going to go drop that and muck with cement and triangles!)



posted on Jul, 26 2005 @ 03:04 PM
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I think that the remnants of these systems eventually spread across the world becoming modern religions and being diluted by that process. I feel that the original secrets and teachings of the mystery system were discovered and then instituted into the foundations of our craft. I'm only dealing with the 3 sublime degrees, I agree with you about the higher ones. However there is great allegory and esoteric content within the blue, which as we've always been instructed is the original and most important of all the houses. Email me at hue.hef@sbcglobal.net and we can discuss some of these esoteric things.



posted on Jul, 26 2005 @ 07:58 PM
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Originally posted by Khonsu
I think that the remnants of these systems eventually spread across the world becoming modern religions and being diluted by that process.

I can understand seeing a connection between the mystery cults, with their dying and resurrecting to eternal life hero-gods, to christianity, but judaism and islam? Also, I think that, perhaps, the idea that christianity gets lots of its ideas via something like 'cultural diffusion' from the mystery cults is, perhaps, overstated. The school of 'historical religion' is where the main academic thrust for this kind of thinking comes from, however those scholars didn't have, apparently, things like the Dead Sea Scrolls and some egyptian christian texts, which apparently point torwards a more jewish basis.

But perhaps an interesting avenue of research would be to compare the gnostic christian sects with the mystery cults and freemasonry. That might be topical, since the cathars and other gnostic christians are usally also cited as forerunners of masonry.


Email me at hue.hef@sbcglobal.net and we can discuss some of these esoteric things.

I wouldn't be able to, I've never seen are read about any of the higher degrees. I've been able to get a some gleanings of what the three craft degrees are generally about, but beyond that nothing. But anything that can be discussed amoung us profane bastards would be welcomed on the board!



posted on Jul, 26 2005 @ 08:00 PM
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Originally posted by Nygdan
Also, I think that any eplanation seeking the origins of masonry in anything other than stone-working masonry unions needs to explain in a reasonable way why this other group became lowly, blue-collar bricklayers, rather than mystical Preists, Knights Templar, or anything.


Nygdan, there isnt even THAT much evidence to support the assumption that Freemasonry actually descended from stone masons! There is a somewhat popular theory that states that all the allegory and symbolism of masonic tools and practices were later added to Freemasonry to give it a theme.

[edit on 26-7-2005 by sebatwerk]



posted on Jul, 28 2005 @ 02:55 PM
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That sounds intersting. Most of my specific information is comming from Mackey's "The History Of Freemasonry: Its Legendary Origins", which of course is a pretty old book. I'd think that the existence of the stonemason's Constitutions with the Solomonic Legend of the Craft would've settled it. So thats interesting to see that there is still lively research on the topic.



posted on Aug, 5 2005 @ 11:26 AM
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Mackey's "The History Of Freemasonry and other older works aside, most grand lodges within the states differ in their telling of the degrees. The mason who brought me in, is now DGM of the state I live in. We have a lot of conversations about allegorical verses legend or even wishful thinking.

In my humble opinion, the brotherhood was initially for self support and survival, whether you take the romantic sword & dragon position or believe in simple greed, it amounts to the same. Today they are more than likely what they seem to be, a fraternity for guys who are too old for jello shots.

I have not yet read the books listed in the thread, I think I will have too. I collect masonic themed books, both pro & con. I have my great-grandfathers primer for the chairs from Scotland. It is in a pictograph code that is easy to read if you know some of the script and can work out a key.




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