In Islam, There Are No Such Things as Civilians

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posted on Jul, 12 2005 @ 04:50 PM
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The term "civilians" does not exist in Islamic religious law. Dr. Karmi is sitting here, and I am sitting here, and I'm familiar with religious law. There is no such term as "civilians" in the modern Western sense. People are either of Dar Al-Harb or not.
Source

For anyone who practices, is this how Islam views the world? Is this why there is dead silence from the Muslim community when someone kills what we westerners dub civilians? A child born to non-Islamic parents deserves to be killed as much as a soldier shooting at you?

This stunning silence from the Islamic community in regards to the London bombings is starting to make me question everything out there saying these are fringe religious fanatics. If I may quote Albert Einstein, "The world is a dangerous place. Not because of the people who are evil; but because of the people who don't do anything about it." I know that here, in America, when we think something is wrong, we are loud about it. Look at people who disagree with the war in Iraq. Did you know some of America is against it? Yeah, because they told you so. Yet, there is no outrage coming from Muslims over this most recent bombing. The only outrage is at people who are stereotyping Muslims as being terrorists. Clerics didn't come out and say these acts were atrocious and do not reflect Islam. No, they came out and told people not to retaliate against Mosques.

What reason do I have to believe this is not Islam, other than our politicians and diplomats say it's not?

EDIT: Rogue word from Word somehow got into my post. JJ needs to take another class in copy and paste.


[edit on 7-12-2005 by junglejake]




posted on Jul, 12 2005 @ 05:02 PM
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I'm sorry....what "stunning silence" are you talking about exactly. Would you only be satisfied if every single muslim man, woman and child came out and made a statement? There have been LOTS of muslim leaders coming out and condemning these attacks. Even in places like saudi arabia, lebanon, syria etc. no to mention the many muslims on sites like the BBC, coming forward to say how appalling this is.

And no, in answer to your question. This is NOT how islam views the world.
And whoever claims this, is only out to attract attention, and whoever give these people attention, are only out to fan the flames of hatred.

And clerics DID come out and say these attacks were terrible.
I dont know what you meant to gain by this post. Maybe the flames were not already high enough for you?



posted on Jul, 12 2005 @ 05:13 PM
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Originally posted by geek101
I'm sorry....what "stunning silence" are you talking about exactly. Would you only be satisfied if every single muslim man, woman and child came out and made a statement? There have been LOTS of muslim leaders coming out and condemning these attacks. Even in places like saudi arabia, lebanon, syria etc. no to mention the many muslims on sites like the BBC, coming forward to say how appalling this is.

And no, in answer to your question. This is NOT how islam views the world.
And whoever claims this, is only out to attract attention, and whoever give these people attention, are only out to fan the flames of hatred.

And clerics DID come out and say these attacks were terrible.
I dont know what you meant to gain by this post. Maybe the flames were not already high enough for you?


well said



posted on Jul, 12 2005 @ 05:24 PM
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why thank you


honestly though, it really is the squeaky wheel that gets the oil/grease, isnt it?
I wish i could meet these people who make such stupid statements about islam, and just slap them
...or just tell them off the way i would tell my kids off. Seriously, i have fantasies where i get all these people together and just collectively ban them from the Playstation (or something)

I would also present them a copy of the Quran and ask them, to point out to me, where they read that its ok to kill innocent people.



posted on Jul, 12 2005 @ 05:35 PM
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You got my curiosity going, jake. So I looked it up.


Islamic Stance on the London Bombing

"There is no Islamic justification possible for crimes against humanity, such as the recent London bombings.

The killing of innocents is against basic humanity, and has absolutely no place in the Shariah. The Shariah came to preserve five fundamental interests (maqasid): religion, life, intellect, honor, and property. Things that harm any of these are contrary to the very foundations of Divine Law."

Should we examine what the Buddhists think about it?


I don't know about the language and the possibility of there being no word for 'civilians', but I do know that many words cannot be translated directly from one language to another. Take the French phrase "Je ne sais quois" for example. We don't have a word for that, but we know what it is and we know it exists.



posted on Jul, 12 2005 @ 05:39 PM
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First off, it should be clear that no amount of flame will deter me from sharing my thoughts. That's why I like ATS, I can ignore or walk away from the flame and not offend the flamer (pun intended
)

I am refering to the stunning silence I have heard and read. I will admit that it's possible American media would be biased against airing such statements, but I also haven't seen anything on Al'Jazeera's website which I frequent.

It is because I know of that bias that I posted it here on ATS. I know that, if anywhere, someone here can point me to the condemnation, and I know we have muslim members here who could shed some light on my questions. I am simply stating questions in my mind and the feelings they've evoked. Rather than harboring them in my heart and fostering hatrid, I expressed them in the hopes that the questions could be answered. My religion is one of love, and hatrid has no place in my heart. When it enters, I seek to correct it. Hopefully, that is what I have to gain from this post.

Geek, you had said that lots have come forward. Is there any way you could send me a link to the stories or something?


I would also present them a copy of the Quran and ask them, to point out to me, where they read that its ok to kill innocent people.

On this, I can completely sympathize and empathize. There are many Christians to whom I would like to do that with were I ever in the unfortunate position of having to talk with them (Example: that guy who started the "God hates gays" rally and anyone who blows up an abortion clinic)



posted on Jul, 12 2005 @ 05:42 PM
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Originally posted by junglejake

This stunning silence from the Islamic community in regards to the London bombings



Of all the rants in your opening post, it seems the geek before me has noticed this clanger like I did and others will.

Perhaps the global outcry from members of all faiths including the Islamic is "strangely" missing from Fox News, or you're just not getting out enough.

Why not go meet some people in the "Islamic community" you profess knowledge of, and see for yourself? Where can you do that locally?



posted on Jul, 12 2005 @ 05:45 PM
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junglejake if you watch the news on channels

bbc 1 /101
bbc 2 /102
ITV /103
channel 4 /104
channel 5 /105
sky news
news 24


these can be accessed on sky in any country (101 and so on )

you will see that they have talked to muslims and clerics who openly were disgusted by the attacks



posted on Jul, 12 2005 @ 06:00 PM
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First off, this topic will get moved. Give me a sec to post some thoughts first.

There is no conspiracy or scandal in this, junglejake.
I am not necessarily busting your chops on this, but be assured, Islam is concerned with this matter on a broader scope.

Islam is specific when it describes and defines uses of "terrorism."
Maybe with a more objective approach, one will see this?
Here are but a few:
TA-ANALYSIS: Terrorism: Islamic Perspective (Part 4 of 4)
Suicide Bombers: Why do they do it, and what does Islam say about their actions?
Islam denounces terrorism
Muslims against Terrorism
Only Love Can Defeat Terrorism




seekerof
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posted on Jul, 12 2005 @ 11:10 PM
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Thanks for the links, Seeker, I'll read through that stuff tomorrow. Thanks to bodrul as well for the channels, but I live in America and am not sure how I could access those channels here.
If they have web access to broadcasts, please give me a link, I'd like to know!

As to MaskedAvatar, if, after all this time of debating with you over various subjects since I started talking about politics here on ATS you still believe I'm someone who only reads/watches/listens to things that coencide with my own personal bias, you have not gotten to know me at all. Yes, I'm a card carying Vast Right Wing Conspiracy member (really!
), but as the old axium goes, know your enemy. I probably read through more left wing blogs and web news sites than I do right wing to understand where your side is coming from, why they believe what they believe as fervently as I believe what I do, and how to counter their topics in a debate/discussion. As to professing knowlege of Islam, I do not. I read that interview I linked to, and was disturbed by many of the things I read, particularly the Islam doesn't recognize civilians. I know ATS has some eloquent and well spoken muslims, and figured this was the place to find out if this was accurate. My judgement was correct, three members have helped me in my search for this outcry.

As to finding out from local muslims what they think, how would you suggest I do that? Stand outside of a Mosque and, as people are coming out after a service, ask them what they think of the London bombings? If I wasn't lynched, I'd be arrested for harrassment along with several other crimes, I'm sure, that I don't know about. That would be percieved as an extremely aggressive and hostile action, not one of outreach.

Unfortunately, all of my friends I met at work or at Church. I work for a small company and there are no muslims who work there, and I highly doubt I'm going to meet any devout muslims at church. The only real exposure I get to the rest of the world outside of those two circles is here at ATS, where I consider, like it or not, all of you my friends, though we may disagree. I wanted to know more, so I posted it where my Islamic friends could respond and correct any inaccuracies that I had, which they did and Seeker provided many resources for me to go through and learn the full picture. That's why I like this community. If your thoughts aren't well informed, you will be called to task, and if you're looking for information, chances are someone here will have it.



posted on Jul, 13 2005 @ 08:09 AM
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Junglejake - apart from your initial post you have seemed quite reasonable, so I can't really understand where you are coming from. You should also try to remember that you are talking to a global community here and not just fellow americans. So you should say "here in the US the muslim population has..." to save confusion.

Every single Muslim leader in the UK has spoken out condeming the atrocity and any Muslim I have spoken to has been sickened by it. Many simply want to avoid the subject because of the shame it has brought on their culture (especially as it turns out the men who did this were British and didn't even have the excuse of being brought up in some medieval village in the Afgahn mountains).

The news media over here has just got muslims literally lining up to speak out against the bombings.



posted on Jul, 13 2005 @ 08:18 AM
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Well, as JJ can attest to, here in Chicago, in our large Muslim population, there has not been one, even one, outcry against the violence. Not one march, or protest against it.

When the Koran was supposedley desecrated there was global protest and marches in the Muslim communities.

Seems, when it effects what they see as 'holy', they will say something.

Everyone else is donkey fodder



posted on Jul, 13 2005 @ 09:38 AM
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try asking at a mosque if you can talk to the cleric there when he isnt busy
( you can do this by sending a letter to the mosque or by asking in person )

also you can watch video footage from these sites

news.bbc.co.uk... ( almost all their pages have video footage or live ones )


if you have sky you can access these channels ( because we can access all US channels on it )



posted on Jul, 13 2005 @ 09:48 AM
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Originally posted by FatherLukeDuke
Every single Muslim leader in the UK has spoken out condeming the atrocity and any Muslim I have spoken to has been sickened by it.


This, I find most disturbing of all, because it has gotten no media play here in the US from what I've seen (not a big TV watcher, get the news from the web). Either I just haven't been looking in the right places, or I'm going to have to give more wieght to people's claims of a state run media in America and an agenda to take on Islam, not the terrorists by that state.

bodrul, I may try talking to the cleric at the mosque next door to my church on Sunday. That's actually a lot more practical that harrassing people leaving their worship, thanks for the tip.





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