If Rove is contact and Matt Cooper is out of Jail, why not Judith Miller?

I admit I haven't followed this story too much. If Matt Cooper is the Time mag reporter who was in jail and is now out because Rove gave him permission to talk about him as the source of this CIA info, why is Judith Miller still in Jail? Could it be she has a different source than Rove? If so who is it and if not, and the only source of info is Rove, why is she not being freed too?

[edit on 12-7-2005 by Apoc]

As I understand it, you may be adding Rove's name in prematurely. At least as far as official reports are concerned.

- Miller was put in jail and Cooper was on his way but at the last minute, Cooper was given permission to reveal his source in court so he doesn't have to go to jail. This hasn't actually happened yet. (We assume it will be Rove, but it's not official)

- Miller may have a second source or hasn't been given permission. But that doesn't change the fact that she refused to testify to the Grand Jury. They can't just let her out. (although in my opinion they shouldn't have been allowed to put her in)

- Rove's attorney has confirmed that Rove discussed Joseph Wilson, Ms Plame's husband, with Cooper and that he gave Cooper permission to testify. But nobody has confirmed (yet) that Rove outed Plame to Cooper.

- Mr Cooper has refused to identify his source publicly.

Financial Times

Mr Rove has insisted he did not leak Ms Plame's name, and e-mail accounts included in the Newsweek story only make clear that he talked to Mr Cooper about Mr Wilson's wife, without revealing her name.

What I suspect is that Rove DID use Plame's name (and outed her) when talking to Miller and won't be giving permission to her.

Why would Rove and Cooper be talking about Wilson's wife, anyway, if he didn't know she was a CIA agent? Was he just saying she's hot?

Source

The pundits are slobbering all over their keyboards writing odes to Judith Miller -- currently in jail for refusing to identify confidential sources. Perhaps these editorial writers have yet to digest that the administration insiders in question are not “whistleblowers” out to expose a government scandal. In fact, these individuals are felons who committed a national security crime to punish one Joseph Wilson -- the first whistleblower to reveal that the intelligence to justify the invasion of Iraq was fixed.

Rove and Cheney Guilty Good Article on the whole story.

The Plame Affair: Rove and Cheney Are Guilty As Charged
by Jeffrey Steinberg

Within the next days or weeks, it is anticipated that Independent Counsel Patrick Fitzgerald will ask a Federal grand jury to hand down indictments against one or more senior White House officials, for obstruction of justice, perjury, and, perhaps, violation of national security laws banning the public disclosure of the identities of American undercover agents. The two names that have surfaced most prominently in the two-year old probe are White House Deputy Chief of Staff Karl Rove and Vice Presidential Chief of Staff I. Lewis "Scooter" Libby. The scandal unavoidably tars Vice President Dick Cheney and President George W. Bush.

My original thoughts on this was that perhaps Miller didn't reveal the source (even if she had permission) because it was the principle of the whole thing - you know, "freedom of the press" and all.

However, Benevolent Heretic's comment:

What I suspect is that Rove DID use Plame's name (and outed her) when talking to Miller and won't be giving permission to her.

made me see things in a whole new light. This has Rove-ish behavior written all over it - it was like it all made sense and fell into place once I read the above quote.

The truth of the matter is, the Bush Administration will likely get away with this. They already knew how they were going to handle it, even before the election - check out this article in the Washington Post. In particular, pay attention to the Republican strategy on this issue:

The emerging GOP strategy -- devised by Mehlman and other Rove loyalists outside of the White House -- is to try to undermine those Democrats calling for Rove's ouster, play down Rove's role and wait for President Bush's forthcoming Supreme Court selection to drown out the controversy, according to several high-level Republicans.
...
"Republicans should stop holding back and go on the offense: fire enough bullets the other way until the Supreme Court overtakes" events, said Rep. Peter T. King (R-N.Y.).

The low down dirty dogs aren't going to let go of the power that easily, and they have the deep pockets and the good ol' boys club to fall back on. Bottom line is, we never should have let these creeps get into the White House to begin with. They are liars and they are cheaters, and unless you want to be a cheater yourself, you can't win against them.

Benevolent Heretic, I think your view point is dead on.

Originally posted by Apoc
why is Judith Miller still in Jail?

Because she broke the law and was in contempt of court, for not revealing her source.

why is she not being freed too?

Regardless of who the source was, she broke the law and was in contempt of court. That lands you in jail.

Could it be she has a different source than Rove?

Cooper said that his source told him personally that he can reveal his name, which was sort of a moot gesture, since Coopers notes had been given up by his editors and the source was literally just about to be revealed anyway. Rove, according to Cooper, gave Cooper, and only Cooper, permission. This, to me, implies that Rove told others. I'd think that because Miller's source didn't give the same persmission, that its someone different.

Then again, Rove is said to be a master strategist. He, for example, made sure to not name V. Plame by name, and to possibly state it in such a way that its not obvious that he knew she was working for the CIA specificially. Its possible that he didn't give miller permission to create the perception that there's another 'source' out there that is the 'real' source. Or its possible that he told miller that "Valerie Plame is a CIA undercover agent', which is 'more clearly' illegal.
Its difficult to say. I have a hard time beleiveing that Miller would protect Rove at this point (if nothing else, given how very unlikely the other 'possibilities' are), so I am leaning torwards there being another leaker.

And, of course, there is the issue of what Novak told the Grand Jury. He's not in jail, and he wrote the big published article on this. That means that he almost certainly gave up his source, without a struggle.

benevolent heretic
But nobody has confirmed (yet) that Rove outed Plame to Cooper.

Rove clearly outed her. He didn't say 'valerie plame is a cia agent', but rather 'wilson's wife is a government intelligence agent' (to parahrase). I have a hard time beleiveing that any reasonable person is going to honestly beleive that that wasn't an outting (I'm talking about any jury or investigators, etc). Its so transparent.

Perhaps these editorial writers have yet to digest that the administration insiders in question are not “whistleblowers” out to expose a government scandal

Indeed, the entire arguement for confidential sources is that they serve a public interest. This is in direct opposition to the public interest. And by letting it go to court and setting legal precedent for imprisoning a journalist, this idiot reporter has set the stage for anyone to do it to silence negative leaks. (tho admitidely the case was apparently pretty well open and shut)

tidepooler
This has Rove-ish behavior written all over it - it was like it all made sense and fell into place once I read the above quote

I think that it would be a master-stroke for the administration to let everyone go nuts over rove, and then have it revealed that he wasn't, in fact, the orignal and 'most explicit' source. But these kind of things are immpossible to really know about.

The emerging GOP strategy

This strategy can only work if the Democrats take it lying down, which, no offense to anyone, they problably will. They really need to stand up to this, its absurd.

They are liars and they are cheaters, and unless you want to be a cheater yourself, you can't win against them.

I have to wonder if the president, in making a committee to investigate this, had a legal responsibility to investigate it, and if it can be revealed that he either covered it up or didn't bother to investigate (and its absurd to suggest that rove didn't mention any of this to bush, there must be some way to establish it), then can bush be impeached? This is rather reminiscent of watergate (beyond the whole 'secret source thing). Nixon didn't leave office because of the break in, he left because of the extremes to which he went to cover it up really. Something similar might be afoot here.
But, then again, it wasn't because of the democrats really that Nixon left office, but the press, and the press is not on the right side here either.

Originally posted by Nygdan

benevolent heretic
But nobody has confirmed (yet) that Rove outed Plame to Cooper.

Rove clearly outed her. He didn't say 'valerie plame is a cia agent', but rather 'wilson's wife is a government intelligence agent' (to parahrase). I have a hard time beleiveing that any reasonable person is going to honestly beleive that that wasn't an outting (I'm talking about any jury or investigators, etc). Its so transparent.

Oh, I agree. It's clear to me, too.

What I mean is that it hasn't been officially confirmed. I'm referring to the actual conversation with Cooper in which Rove said Wilson's "wife...apparently works at the agency on wmd issues." Rove's claim is that he didn't say her name and he didn't say 'undercover agent'. He just that she worked in the wmd department of the CIA. Nothing illegal about that.

I don't believe it, but that's what he's saying.
Source

This strategy can only work if the Democrats take it lying down, which, no offense to anyone, they problably will. They really need to stand up to this, its absurd.

You're right, they probably will, and the reason why is because of what I said earlier:

They are liars and they are cheaters, and unless you want to be a cheater yourself, you can't win against them.

Let's face it, democrats are guilty of their own indiscretions. But, they don't pull things like this. This is the low down, dirty dog politics (like planting evidence, making up out and out lies about people, whisper campaigns, and the like) that Karl Rove is infamous for. He's a total creep and he has cheated and lied his way to where he is. Democrats just don't play the game that dirty. If they did, maybe one of them would be in office by now. Let's face it, when you play monopoly with someone who cheats, and you don't quit the game before they buy up all the expensive properties, then you will lose.

then can bush be impeached?

I don't understand why liberals haven't been calling to impeach him already since the lied, lied, lied to the American people repeatedly about WMD and the reason for this so-called war. The people in the Bush Administration are a bunch of filthy low down liars - that's the only way I can say it without a bunch of expletives. All you have to do, is look back in the media coverage over the past 5 years and listen to all the crap they fed everyone. Listen to it, knowing what you know now. Like they say, if you aren't outraged, you're not paying attention! Americans have an attention span of about 2 minutes. We should be rallying for an impeachment! The Republicans prompted a Grand Jury investigation and an impeachment inquiry that cost tax payers millions of dollars because Clinton had an extramarital affair and didn't want to admit it out of embarrasment.

At least Clinton didn't go and start World War III (or Vietnam 2) under false pretenses! Sheesh...people should be absolutely outraged - I don't understand why people in this country are more interested in Brad Pitt and Angelina Jolie than they are in the concrete evidence being discovered that the Bush Administration point blank lied to everyone, and they continue to lie and bully people who don't cooperate with them. We should be picketting the White House and making a ruckus! I say IMPEACH BUSH AND HIS ENTIRE ADMINISTRATION!

Originally posted by Tidepooler
then can bush be impeached?

I don't understand why liberals haven't been calling to impeach him already since the lied, lied, lied to the American people repeatedly about WMD and the reason for this so-called war.
? Because it hasn't been demonstrated that he lied about it. This, however, is pretty different, Rove clearly blew the cover of an operative, and clearly didn't come clean when it came out. Hopefully he'll get booted out, and if anyone can show that Bush ordered it, then Bush'll have to go too.