Proof Albert Pike Affliated with KKK?

Originally posted by senrak

Cug,

You've asked a couple of questions here and just so I don't fall into the category of ignoring questions and be accused of "trolling" again, I would respectfully ask you to re-read my post #1531585 above.
Specifically the part where I said that I do not wish to further discuss this.

Fine, but I HAVE to consider you posts as false if you cannot back up your statements.

Originally posted by Cug

Originally posted by senrak

Cug,

You've asked a couple of questions here and just so I don't fall into the category of ignoring questions and be accused of "trolling" again, I would respectfully ask you to re-read my post #1531585 above.
Specifically the part where I said that I do not wish to further discuss this.

Fine, but I HAVE to consider you posts as false if you cannot back up your statements.

I suppose I'll lose a night's sleep over that.

[sigh]

You do what you think is best, but despite the fact that you're insinuating that I'm a liar, at LEAST belive me when I tell you that I am bowing out of this discussion for VERY GOOD reason.

Ciao

Originally posted by senrak

I suppose I'll lose a night's sleep over that.

[sigh]

You do what you think is best, but despite the fact that you're insinuating that I'm a liar, at LEAST belive me when I tell you that I am bowing out of this discussion for VERY GOOD reason.

Ciao

Do you at least see where I coming from?

When someone posts they know freemasonry is satanic, and is controlling the world and you call them on it. If they responded it’s true because I know it to be true, they would be treated far far worse than you seem to think I have treated you. Maybe not by you but seb would stomp all over them.

BTW quit with the I’m calling you a liar stuff… you being a liar has never crossed my mind… I just believe your mistaken on some things BIG difference my friend.

Originally posted by Cug
Do you at least see where I coming from?
When someone posts they know freemasonry is satanic, and is controlling the world and you call them on it. If they responded it’s true because I know it to be true, they would be treated far far worse than you seem to think I have treated you. Maybe not by you but seb would stomp all over them.

Fully understood, so at least give me benefit of the doubt that this is not in my better interest to continue. Thanks!

And you're right about the other part...we'd "eat their proverbial lunch" then belch loudly afterward...



[edit on 14-7-2005 by senrak]

It really confuses me as to how anyone could argue the point that Albert Pike was not in the KKK. The association is enough for the average reasonable person to remain silent on these matters. Unless the individual actually knew Pike and spent a good amount of time with him.

The KKK before 1915 or afterwards is the KKK. This was and is a very violent organization that killed many. I t was the cause of horrible tragedies and bloodshed.

Albert Pike was Confederate General. As I recall the South wanted to keep slavery. It does not appear to be too far fetched that someone who fought to keep others in bondage would one day join the KKK.

Originally posted by Osirisrisen
Albert Pike was Confederate General. As I recall the South wanted to keep slavery. It does not appear to be too far fetched that someone who fought to keep others in bondage would one day join the KKK.

Uhm...while the issue of slavery came into the matter, the Civil War was not started, nor was it fought over slavery (which is a horrible institution, by the way)

Look up the Civil War and "State's Rights" before making so bold a statement, please.

Also, look up what the northern "carpetbaggers" did to the war-torn south. Nothing like taking advantage of someone when he's "down" That's why the Klan was organized to protect the people from them. It was NOTHING like the Klan of the early 1900's...but they did get carried away, and because of this they were disbanded. (in a nutshell)

To reiterate, there has been no shred of paper (read: solid) evidence to prove Pike was a member of the Klan. He certainly COULD have been...MANY men were...and they were businessmen, prominent citizens, preachers, etc. etc...not the redneck hate-mongers the Klan is composed of today.

Again, Pike COULD have been but no one can prove it. There are organizations he belonged to that CAN be proven. He was a Mason (both York Rite and Scottish Rite. He was Grand High Priest of the Grand Royal Arch Chapter of Arkansas, Sovereign Grand Commander of the Ancient and Accepted Scottish Rite and Provincial Grand Master of the Royal Order of Scotland) He was a member of the Odd Fellows Lodge, and he was a member of the Episcopal Church. All of these organizations have documents proving his membership.

There are, however NO records from that period that connect Pike with the Klan at all. There is extant a Congressional investigation--U.S. House of Representatives, Report #2, 42nd Congress, 2nd Session, Condition of Affairs in the Late Insurrectionary States Washington, D.C.--into the activities of the Reconstruction Era Klan which includes material from 1868-1871. And while there ARE references to ALLEGED leaders of the Klan in various states, there is NO mention at all of Pike.

Oh, and the Federal Government sure thought a lot of him. He's the ONLY former Confederate General to have a statue on the streets of Washington DC. He is not clothed as a General at all, but in civilian dress. He was an attorney and former newspaper editor.

[edit on 14-7-2005 by senrak]

You really need to do your research...
Just because a book or encyclopaedia is published by a company who stood the test of time does not mean it is valid Books are sold for MONEY!
These publishing houses are not "NON Profit"

Or does that mean that the Coptic gospels are more true than the regular bible. Because they are older and found in a pot?

In one post some sone said "Pike exercied Poor judgement but does that make him a bad person"

OK look at this Why would the KKK or the Freemasons take him into their organization if they knew about his "exercise of poor judgement?" to Who's standard.
Food for thought do with it what you will>...

Originally posted by ghostdog007
Things like the Encyclopedia Britanica were so popular and so well used because they were very well researched and had stood the test of time.

I bought the WWII series from Britanica in the Eighties and if you read each book as I did you would find some interesting Lack of research.
According to Britinica ther were NO pilots in WWII that were black.

Originally posted by Osirisrisen
Albert Pike was Confederate General. As I recall the South wanted to keep slavery. It does not appear to be too far fetched that someone who fought to keep others in bondage would one day join the KKK.

Like Senrak stated, the fact of the matter is that, while it may be believable or even probable, there is NO EVIDENCE WHATSOEVER to demonstrate that Pike was a member of the KKK. Nothing at all. This is all that matters.

Also, keep in mind that Pike repented for his racism later in life and helped to establish black masonic lodges. He was almost 60 when the KKK was founded. It is also possible that by the time the KKK was around, Pike had already reformed his racism.

Also, he was fully pardoned for his Civil War leadership.

One simple question...

The KKK is made up of far right wing Christians.
The far right Christians HATE the Masons.

How could somebody be a member of both?

Originally posted by senrak
Also, look up what the northern "carpetbaggers" did to the war-torn south. Nothing like taking advantage of someone when he's "down" That's why the Klan was organized to protect the people from them. It was NOTHING like the Klan of the early 1900's...but they did get carried away, and because of this they were disbanded. (in a nutshell)

They got carried away.... Oh I get it there was a good Klan and a Bad Klan

Originally posted by senrak
To reiterate, there has been no shred of paper (read: solid) evidence to prove Pike was a member of the Klan. He certainly COULD have been...MANY men were...and they were businessmen, prominent citizens, preachers, etc. etc...not the redneck hate-mongers the Klan is composed of today.

So this gives you every right to defend him....ummm

Originally posted by senrak
Again, Pike COULD have been but no one can prove it. There are organizations he belonged to that CAN be proven. He was a Mason (both York Rite and Scottish Rite. He was Grand High Priest of the Grand Royal Arch Chapter of Arkansas, Sovereign Grand Commander of the Ancient and Accepted Scottish Rite and Provincial Grand Master of the Royal Order of Scotland) He was a member of the Odd Fellows Lodge, and he was a member of the Episcopal Church. All of these organizations have documents proving his membership.

Can you prove anyone is or was in the Klan without pulling off their hood for everyone to see?

Originally posted by senrak
There are, however NO records from that period that connect Pike with the Klan at all. There is extant a Congressional investigation--U.S. House of Representatives, Report #2, 42nd Congress, 2nd Session, Condition of Affairs in the Late Insurrectionary States Washington, D.C.--into the activities of the Reconstruction Era Klan which includes material from 1868-1871. And while there ARE references to ALLEGED leaders of the Klan in various states, there is NO mention at all of Pike.

Blah...blah....blah.....blah.....

Originally posted by senrak
Oh, and the Federal Government sure thought a lot of him. He's the ONLY former Confederate General to have a statue on the streets of Washington DC. He is not clothed as a General at all, but in civilian dress. He was an attorney and former newspaper editor.

What exactly is your point? I think you're taking the Freemasonry thing just a bit far.

Originally posted by Osirisrisen
They got carried away.... Oh I get it there was a good Klan and a Bad Klan

No. There was a Klan that was started with good intentions....just didn't work out that way.

So this gives you every right to defend him....ummm

Yep. I can defend him if I damn-well want to.

Can you prove anyone is or was in the Klan without pulling off their hood for everyone to see?

Exactly my point! Glad you agree with me. Pike's membership can't be proven.

What exactly is your point? I think you're taking the Freemasonry thing just a bit far.

[Yawn]

And I'm supposed to CARE what YOU think about my involvement in "the Freemasonry thing"

What was YOUR point, except to post conjecture?



[edit on 14-7-2005 by senrak]

Originally posted by Osirisrisen
Can you prove anyone is or was in the Klan without pulling off their hood for everyone to see?

Absolutely. There are large amounts of documentation, witness accounts and confessions from MANY klansmen.

Blah...blah....blah.....blah.....

Is this how you respond when you have no argument to return? I would suggest that the next time you find yourself at a loss of words, just don't post anything at all.

Originally posted by senrak
Oh, and the Federal Government sure thought a lot of him. He's the ONLY former Confederate General to have a statue on the streets of Washington DC. He is not clothed as a General at all, but in civilian dress. He was an attorney and former newspaper editor.

What exactly is your point? I think you're taking the Freemasonry thing just a bit far.

He didn't even MENTION Freemasonry. What are you talking about?

Originally posted by senrak
[Yep. I can defend him if I damn-well want to.

Well I guess that says a great deal about you. Since you choose to defend a Klansman. I wonder why?.....

Originally posted by senrak
Can you prove anyone is or was in the Klan without pulling off their hood for everyone to see?
Exactly my point! Glad you agree with me. Pike's membership can't be proven.

I don't believe we would ever agree on anything.

Originally posted by senrak
And I'm supposed to CARE what YOU think about my involvement in "the Freemasonry thing"
What was YOUR point, except to post conjecture?

My point was to shed some light on your character. I believe I did one heck of a job. Your arrogance is absolutely astounding! Even when you have no idea what you're talking about you feel as though you are right. You remind me of a hoodwinked man driving a fancy car with all the confidence of a seasoned veteran until he crashed horribly into a brick wall, becuase he could not see what was before him.

Originally posted by sebatwerk
He didn't even MENTION Freemasonry. What are you talking about?

I mentioned Freemasonry, becuase it is obvious the only reason he is defending Pike is becuase he was a Mason. He is adamantly arguing a moot point. It's annoying and funny all at the same time. Who is your buddy trying to impress?

Originally posted by Osirisrisen
I mentioned Freemasonry, becuase it is obvious the only reason he is defending Pike is becuase he was a Mason. He is adamantly arguing a moot point. It's annoying and funny all at the same time. Who is your buddy trying to impress?

You are mistaken. He, like I, is defending LOGIC and REASON. There is NO EVIDENCE to associate Pike to the Klan, yet you keep stating it as being a fact. We are simply defending this aberration of judgement. We would defend ANYONE and ANYTHING of this, and we do (like the existence of the illuminati, BG wrongdoings, masonic satanism, etc etc).

Well I guess that says a great deal about you. Since you choose to defend a Klansman. I wonder why?.....

The fact that you state an unfounded assumption as a fact says a great deal about YOU.

My point was to shed some light on your character. I believe I did one heck of a job.

Uuuuuhhh? What exactly are you tooting your own horn about?!? You did NO such thing. It doesn't even look like you tried.

Even when you have no idea what you're talking about you feel as though you are right.

Um, he knows what he's talking about far more than you do! You think Pike's klan affiliation is a fact! You think you're above logic and reason, so that you don't have to prove Pike's affiliation before stating it as fact! Who's the arrogant one?!?


[edit on 14-7-2005 by sebatwerk]

Originally posted by Osirisrisen
Well I guess that says a great deal about you. Since you choose to defend a Klansman. I wonder why?.....

And I wonder why you think he was a Klansman when there's NO DOCUMENTED PROOF. Apparently you're easily perusaded. I'll bet telemarketers LOVE you!

I don't believe we would ever agree on anything.

Interesting observation, since you DON'T KNOW ME, but have already drawn your conclusion.

My point was to shed some light on your character.

Oh. I see. It's a discussion forum to which you have contributed NOTHING so because of your lack of ability to comprehend, you decide to attack the character of someone YOU DON'T KNOW. Pity. Adults typically don't do that. Hopefully someday you'll be one.

I believe I did one heck of a job.

That makes one of us.

Your arrogance is absolutely astounding!

Yet ANOTHER ad hominem attack! However will I sleep tonight?????

BWA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA

Even when you have no idea what you're talking about you feel as though you are right.

I have no idea what I'm talking about? I not only state that there's NO DOCUMENTATION to prove that Pike belonged to the Klan, I cited a specific United States Government investigation (I sure hope Cug noticed that) to back it up. EVEN THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT CANNOT FIND EVIDENCE THAT PIKE WAS A KLANSMAN, yet you are sure he was?

Talk about arrogance! You take the cake!

You remind me of a hoodwinked man driving a fancy car with all the confidence of a seasoned veteran until he crashed horribly into a brick wall, becuase he could not see what was before him.

Uhm...I'll have to admit...I have NO FREAKIN' idea what THAT means. Couldn't you come up with a better analogy? Oh well.

Cheers!

You're a very entertaining guy, by the way. I'll bet you're a BLAST at parties!

[edit on 14-7-2005 by senrak]

Originally posted by senrak

I have no idea what I'm talking about? I not only state that there's NO DOCUMENTATION to prove that Pike belonged to the Klan, I cited a specific United States Government investigation (I sure hope Cug noticed that) to back it up. EVEN THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT CANNOT FIND EVIDENCE THAT PIKE WAS A KLANSMAN, yet you are sure he was?

I sure did. That's why I wanted you to do the same with your Crowley statements.

Originally posted by Cug

Originally posted by senrak

I have no idea what I'm talking about? I not only state that there's NO DOCUMENTATION to prove that Pike belonged to the Klan, I cited a specific United States Government investigation (I sure hope Cug noticed that) to back it up. EVEN THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT CANNOT FIND EVIDENCE THAT PIKE WAS A KLANSMAN, yet you are sure he was?

I sure did.

That's why I wanted you to do the same with your Crowley statements.

Now keep in mind, the only thing that required documentation was the "wickedest man" thing. Everything else I did say was MY PERSONAL opinion of Crowley and his lack of morals.

But what do *I* know...I'm ignorant and arrogant...just ask ol' what's-his-head in the above post who hurt my feelings.

(Is my pain obvious?)

[edit on 14-7-2005 by senrak]

Ok. Let's indeed try to bring LOGIC and REASON in
here.

What is worst: being racist or killing a man ?



Did Pike ever killed a single man in his life,

and if yes,

how in the world does that makes him a better man
than any felon unworthy of entering masonry ?


Since when murder, for any reason,
is tolerated by masonry.


How doe masons, who even started organizations
to prevent it, tolerate a member of war ?


Is it because of Cain ?


I don't know about others, but the last
person I would encourage is a man
who killed another man.


I do not believe in war because I
believe races and nations are illusory and
temporal. I don't think they mean a thing after death.


So venering a man who killed another man
sounds to me like the most illogic of moralities.



Bang bang,

Cedric Phi








[edit on 15-7-2005 by Centiment]

OK - Calm down guys - it is getting WAAAAY too HOT in here!

Quote: "it is obvious that the only Reason he is defending Pike is because he was a Mason."

OK - Pike MAY have or may NOT have been a Racist. Or he could have been Racist for a while, but eventually realized that it was wrong. He then made up for it (for instance - I had no Idea that he helped set up Black Lodges).

One thing that is NOT disputed is that Pike was in-fact a Brilliant Man! Do I have to be a "Mason" to appreciate & learn from his various life works? The answer is no - you can find PLENTY of his stuff on the Internet!


This is what I think is Really going on - there are certain groups on the Web & ATS that are working as follows:

"well Pike was a Mason & "everybody" knows that the Masons are "Satanists" - I mean they keep SECRETS for crying out loud (what an Idiotic Argument) or Pike was a Racist! THEREFORE you should not look into Pikes Philosophy or Works - don't think about or consider anything that he had to say (they do the Same Thing with Crowley - use the mans Character to dis-credit his Works) - especially since the Boogie Man "Lucifer" is mentioned (Oh God - please lets not get into THIS Phallacy again - I would rather Shoot myself)"!

They then play games in order to justify their views. This is what I call re-enforcement of IGNORANCE via Fear - a Tactic that is decidedly favored by the Fear-Mongering, Pro-Ignorance, Fundamentalist Wing of "Christianity". I propose that this backwards way of thinking is HARDLEY Christian at all - that this is in-fact the REAL Phallacy!

Pike was a FreeMason - he was also a WELL DOCUMENTED CHRISTIAN - as well as an Occultist. Many of these Christians of the Fundamentalist variety would argue that the above is Not Compatible. I would argue that it is MORE than Compatible!