Proof Albert Pike Affliated with KKK?

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Cug

posted on Jul, 12 2005 @ 08:02 PM
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Sorry I seemed to miss this post earlier.

IMHO you seem guilty of the same thing you claim the anti-masons are doing. Using popular culture “facts” to support your opinion without any real research to back up your statements.


Originally posted by senrak

Well, OK. He had absolutely NO MORALS and proudly admitted it.


Where did he admit to having “NO MORALS”? Sources please. I think you will find that he did in fact have strong morals, they just were not of the Judaeo/Christian type.


He proclaimed himself "the world's wickedest man"


Again where did he proclaim that? Sources Please. That title came from the British Tabloid press that would be the equilivant to today’s pillar of journalistic integrity The Weekly World News.


and admitted being a drug and sex "fiend"


See above. The Drug Fiend part does have Crowley roots, it was part of a name of a novel. Yes Crowley used drugs… but they were legal at the time. (Coca Cola etc…) Know anyone who smokes or drinks? They are also “Drug fiends”.

As far as Sex fiend goes, remember this came from a time when it was vulgar for a man to be at a beach topless. These same people also thought you were a pervert if you had sex with your wife with the lights on.


He called himself "Baphomet" and "the Beast-666"


yea so? Pike worshiped Lucifer :-P You should know sometime titles are used to agitate the “profane”.



One of his poems (if you can call it that) includes the lines:

My nostrils sniff the luxury
Of flesh decaying, bowels torn
Of festive worms, like Venus, born
Of entrails foaming like the sea.


ahhhh White Stains… maybe there was a reason for this book?

"… The poems which comprise the book were written, so Crowley tells us, to refute the findings of Richard von Krafft-Ebing’s (1840-1902) 1893 Psychpathia Sexualis (Crowley 1989, 139). The thesis of von Krafft-Ebing’s book was that sexual aberrations were the result of physiological disease.

Crowley was of the opinion that any such aberrations were psychological in nature and turned to artistic expression to make his point. Crowley states: "I therefore invented a poet who went wrong, who began with normal innocent enthusiasms, and gradually developed various vices. He ends by being stricken with disease and madness, culminating in murder. In his poems he describes his downfall, always explaining the psychology of each act." (Crowley 1989, 139) Despite his scientific minded endeavor Crowley soon realised "the most personal relations could be taken by filthy minds as the basis for their malicious imaginations." (Crowley, 1989, 139)

From Giving God a Facial with Aleister Crowley’s White Stains: Pornographic Occult Poetry as Shadow Confrontation and Cathartic Liberation. By "Nuhad418" (BA/MA Religion) /7kaj4



Yep. You're right. It is MY PERSONAL OPINION that Crowley was a fruit-cake. A dreg of society.


Just wondering if you feel the same way about your fellow Masons who follow Thelema?




posted on Jul, 12 2005 @ 08:04 PM
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I am sorry but the rumor about Pike is
that he was in kkk, not that he was racist.


I didn't bring the Clinton comparison.


Cedric



PS: my relevant point if that jews would not have tolerated
Pike a second if he had been anti-semitist.

They are MANY jews in freemasonry,
and they don't give a damn that Pike
had a problem with black people.















[edit on 12-7-2005 by Centiment]



posted on Jul, 12 2005 @ 08:31 PM
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Originally posted by Cug
Just wondering if you feel the same way about your fellow Masons who follow Thelema?


No. I feel the same way about my fellow Masons who belong to the OTO Particularly those who've received the 7th degree and above.

However this forum is NOT the place to discuss it and terminates my comments on the subject.



[edit on 12-7-2005 by senrak]


Cug

posted on Jul, 12 2005 @ 09:47 PM
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Originally posted by senrak

Originally posted by Cug
Just wondering if you feel the same way about your fellow Masons who follow Thelema?

No. I feel the same way about my fellow Masons who belong to the OTO Particularly those who've received the 7th degree and above.

However this forum is NOT the place to discuss it and terminates my comments on the subject.


Well I did not mention the O.T.O. I was referring to Thelemites who may want to join the Masons. but as you seem not to want to discuss thing that may be under oath, I respect that and it’s OK by me, but what about the rest of my comments?

From how I have seen you post in this forum I have come to respect your opinion. But in this case you really seem to be falling into the same behavior pattern the anti-mason trolls have here. Posting myths as fact, not backing up your posts, and now ignoring legitimate questions I posted. You have to admit that is typical troll tactics.

Now I personally do not care if someone likes Crowley or not, but I’d like to at least try and help them to dislike Crowley/Thelema for something factual. I mean there are people out there that think that as a Thelemite I sacrifice babies and drink their blood. These are the same people who also promote things like Pike and the KKK, and the Masons and the Illuminati. Do you think one can honestly say "Oh they are total crackpots… except when they talk about Crowley?"


[edit on 7/12/2005 by Cug]



posted on Jul, 13 2005 @ 04:12 AM
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Originally posted by Cug
From how I have seen you post in this forum I have come to respect your opinion. But in this case you really seem to be falling into the same behavior pattern the anti-mason trolls have here.
Posting myths as fact, not backing up your posts, and now ignoring legitimate questions I posted. You have to admit that is typical troll tactics.


Cug,

I stated that Crowley was a fruit-cake. I'll further that by saying that he was a sick, twisted, amoral individual. This is the opinion I have of him drawn from HIS writings (not what other people have written about him).
His writings stand as my "fact"

I am sorry that you seemingly cannot understand this. Perhaps you're a fan of Crowley. That's your business, but for personal reasons I do NOT wish to further discuss Crowley, Thelema, hedonism, OTO or anything related.

Besides, unless I've missed something here, this thread was allegedly to prove that Albert Pike (upon whom be peace) was a member of the Ku Klux Klan and for some silly reason the original poster threw Crowley into the Pike mix. I guess there's nothing like derailing a thread from the very onset.



[edit on 13-7-2005 by senrak]



posted on Jul, 13 2005 @ 12:52 PM
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Originally posted by senrak
The Masonic Knights Templar base their ritual on the historical Knights Templar

How is this even possible? I thought that the only info anyone had on any rituals from the actual KT were obtained thru confessions via torture?

eudamonia
Dr. Fleming states that "General Albert Pike, who stood high in the Masonic order, was the chief judicial officer of the Klan."

What evidence is presented to support this statement?

mrnecros
they had adopted local religious beliefs

What islamic or unitarian sects in the levant had the same rituals?

Golfie
Hypothetically....If Pike was affiliated with the KKK, does that make Masonry or even more The SJ Scottish Rite afiliated?

Doesn't really matter. THe question at hand is "Was Albert Pike a member of the KKK". So far we've seen a picture that seems to support that statement, and we've seen that pike, at the time that the KKK was around, was advocating for an order of white brotherhood, and everyone agrees that he was a racist. Seems like the pendulum is leaning torwards Pike being in the KKK, he'd certainly fit in, regardless of the group also being concerned about yankee despots.
What would constitute reasonable evidence for him being a member of the KKK?

Those are the things that are most germaine to this thread, not whether masonry, as a modern organization, is racist, or whether the KKK shifted into racist over-drive later on in its history. I don't think it ever accepted black members anyway.



posted on Jul, 13 2005 @ 02:17 PM
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Originally posted by Nygdan

Originally posted by senrak
The Masonic Knights Templar base their ritual on the historical Knights Templar

How is this even possible? I thought that the only info anyone had on any rituals from the actual KT were obtained thru confessions via torture?


No, the torture produced confessions of things they didn't ACTUALLY DO (spitting and/or trampling on the Cross or Crucifix, worshiping a "head" named Baphomet, denying Christ, etc.)

The Templars existed almost 200 years before being captured and disbanded in 1314. They started under the Grand Mastership of Hugh de Payens in 1118 and much was written about them (they were excellent record keepers)

The "Templar Rule" was no secret at all and the basic induction (or initiation ceremony) was recorded in various sources at different times, a common one being:

Le Dossier de l'Affaire des Templiers by Georges Lizerande

This in turn was copied from: La Regle du Temple”

A "snippet" that work follows: (the page numbers are from the manuscript "La Regle du Temple"

(657) “Brother Knights, you see that the majority are agreed to make this aspirant a Brother of the Order. If there is any one among you who knows aught that would prevent him becoming a brother according to our Regulations, let him state it now, for it were better that it be declared beforehand than after he has been brought before us.”

(658) And when he is before these, they shall say to him: “Brother, do you desire to be enrolled in our ranks?” And if he says; “Yes”, they ought to point out to him the great strictness of the Order, the commandments of charity that are enforced, and all the other hardships and disciplines, which whey will be able to explain to him. And if he says that he will willingly suffer all for God, and that he is willing to be the bondservant and slave of the Order (“serf et esclave de la maison) always, henceforth and for all the days of his life, they will ask him if he is marred or betrothed; if he has made any vow or promise to any other Order; if he owes any man any debt that he is unable to pay; if he is healthy of body and has no hidden malady; and if hi is not a slave to any one.

(659) And if he replies to these questions in the negative, stating that he is entirely free from all these disabilities, the Fratres shall enter the Chapter and say to the Master or his Lieutenant: “Sir, we have spoken to this aspirant who stands without, and we have made known to him the rigorous maxims by which we are governed (les reierurs de la maison) according to our knowledge and ability. And he says that he is willing to be the bondservant and slave of the Order, and that he is quit and free of all the things we have asked him; and that there is nothing in his character to prevent him from becoming a Brother if that be pleasing to God, to you and to the Fratres.

(660) And the Master shall say yet again, that if there be anyone present who knows anything otherwise regarding him (the aspirant) he ought to declare it, for it would be better to do so now than afterwards. And if no one says anything, he (the Master) shall say:? “is it your desire that he should be admitted in the Name of God?” ?? And the worthy Knights will reply: ?? “Let him be admitted, in God's Name.” Then those whom have spoken with the aspirant shall return to him and ask him:? “Are you still willing?” And if he says? “Yes” they shall tell and instruct him how he should request the companionship of the Order, that is to say, he ought to enter the Chapter and kneel before him who presides, with hands clasped, and say:? “Sir, I am come before God, before you and before the Brethren, and pray and beseech you, in the name of God and our Lady, to receive me into your companionship, and let me share in the benefits of the Order as one who will henceforth and forever be the bondservant and slave of the Order.”

(661) Then he who is presiding over the Chapter shall say to him: - “Good Brother, you request a very great matter, for you see but the outer shell of our Order, that is, you see only that we have beautiful horses and fine trappings, good food and drink and magnificent robes, and thus you may think you will be well off with us; but you do not know the stern discipline maintained within the Order; for it is a difficult thing for you who are your own master to become the bondservant of another. When you wish to be on this (side?) of the sea, you may be ordered to the other. When you wish to be at Acre, you may be sent to the land of Tripoli, or to Sicily, or to Lombardy, or to France, or to Burgundy, or to England, or to several other lands where we have houses and possessions. And if you wish to sleep, you may be made to watch, and if you wish sometimes to watch, you may be ordered to go and rest in your bed.”
(After it has been ascertained by interrogation that the candidate need not be excluded but may be admitted, the Master continues in the following terms)

(675) “Now, good Brother, now listen carefully to what we shall say to you. Do you promise to God and to our Lady that henceforth, all the days of your life, you will be obedient to the (Grand) Master and to whatever commander will be placed over you?” And he shall reply:- “Yea, Sir, by the help of God.”
“Do you promise likewise to God and to our Lady, Holy Mary, that henceforth all the days of your life, you will live without personal property of your own?” - And she shall reply:- “Yea, Sir, by the help of God.”
“Do you promise likewise to God and Holy Mary that henceforth all the days of your life, you will maintain the good usages and customs of our Order, those that already are (established customs) and those that the Master and the worthy Knights of our order may institute?” - And he shall say:- “Yea, Sir, by the help of God.”

(676) “Do you promise likewise, to God and Holy Mary, that all the days of your life you will help to conquer, according to the strength and power that God has given you, the Holy Land of Jerusalem, and that you will help to guard and save that which the Christians hold? - And he shall answer:- “Yea, Sir, by the help of God.”
“Do you promise, likewise to God and Holy Mary, that you will never withdraw from the Order, in weakness or in strength, for better or for worse, unless with the consent of the Master or of the Council who have power (to grant such)?” - And he shall answer: - “Yea, Sir, by the help of God.”
“Do you promise to God and Holy Mary that you will never be present with a Christian is wrongfully and without reason despoiled of his goods, either by your act or with your counsel?” - And he shall answer, “Yea, Sir, by the help of God.”
“And we, in the name of God, and of our Lady, Holy Mary, and of our Lord St. Peter of Rome, and of our Father the Pope, and of all the Brethren of the Temple, we admit you to all the benefits of the Order, which have accrued to it since its foundation, and which will accrue to it to the end, you and your father and your mother and all those of your lineage whom you wish to welcome. And do you also admit us to all the benefits you have attained or may attain in the future. Thus we promise you bread and water, the poor clothing of the Order, and much labour and toil.”

(678) Then he who is presiding over the Chapter shall take the mantel, place it in the aspirant’s shoulders, and tie the cords. And the Chaplain shall recite the Psalm; “Ecce quam bonum” and the prayer for the Holy Spirit, and each of the Brethren shall recite the “Paternoster”. And he who is making him a Brother-Knight shall cause him to rise and shall kiss him on the lips; and it is customary for the Chaplain to kiss him also.
Then he who is making him a Brother-Knight shall make him sit before him, and shall address him: - “Good Brother, the Lord has satisfied your desire and has set you in the fair company of the Knights of the Temple; therefore you must make every effort never to do aught by which you might lose that privilege, from which God keep you. And we shall tell you those things which we remember concerning the exclusiveness of the Order and then the clothing ...


[edit on 13-7-2005 by senrak]


Cug

posted on Jul, 13 2005 @ 05:07 PM
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Originally posted by senrak


Cug,

I stated that Crowley was a fruit-cake. I'll further that by saying that he was a sick, twisted, amoral individual. This is the opinion I have of him drawn from HIS writings (not what other people have written about him).
His writings stand as my "fact"


Yep you said that, but you also posted things like "He proclaimed himself "the world's wickedest man"" That my friend is not an opinion, that is an untruth stated as a fact.


I am sorry that you seemingly cannot understand this. Perhaps you're a fan of Crowley. That's your business, but for personal reasons I do NOT wish to further discuss Crowley, Thelema, hedonism, OTO or anything related.


Then I would suggest you continue to state your opinions as opinions, and stop posting lies. You posted to this thread because you wanted to counter the "fact" that Pike was a member of the KKK and show it to be not true. That is the exact thing I’m doing but on matters relating to Crowley. And this is what you seemingly cannot understand.

I personally have a few problems with masonry, yet if/when I post them I post them as my opinions, I do not add lies as "facts" to back up my statements.


Besides, unless I've missed something here, this thread was allegedly to prove that Albert Pike (upon whom be peace) was a member of the Ku Klux Klan and for some silly reason the original poster threw Crowley into the Pike mix. I guess there's nothing like derailing a thread from the very onset.



Well what can you do? For some reason in this forum Freemasonry and Crowley are the same. Note the mason posts in the O.T.O. thread.



posted on Jul, 13 2005 @ 06:17 PM
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Originally posted by Nygdan
How is this even possible? I thought that the only info anyone had on any rituals from the actual KT were obtained thru confessions via torture?


I think Senrak meant that the masonic templar's rituals are based on the Templars themselves, not the supposed rituals they performed. You are correct, we don't know much, if at all, about those, but we do know about the order. Masonic Templar rituals deal with the history and legends of the ancient order.



THe question at hand is "Was Albert Pike a member of the KKK". So far we've seen a picture that seems to support that statement, and we've seen that pike, at the time that the KKK was around, was advocating for an order of white brotherhood, and everyone agrees that he was a racist. Seems like the pendulum is leaning torwards Pike being in the KKK, he'd certainly fit in, regardless of the group also being concerned about yankee despots.
What would constitute reasonable evidence for him being a member of the KKK?


As far as the picture is concerned, it seems to me that, if real, the artifacts in the picture would be a pretty damning piece of evidence. Why have the artifacts never been taken seriously among real historical Pike researchers? I've never even HEARD of those artifacts, or a picture thereof, until this thread. Combine that with the fact that many people have faked or forged "evidence" to condemn Pike, and it leads me to believe that the picture and the artifacts within it are fake.

Just because Pike was a racist and spoke of a white brotherhood (he was probably referring to Freemasonry, or what he wanted Freemasonry to become) does not mean he was in the KKK! There has never been ANY serious evidence to support this allegation, so I don't understand how you can take this seriously.

I personally would not care if Pike had been in the KKK, I just have NEVER seen any serious piece of evidence to demonstrate this. Solid evidence would be some kind of REAL documentation from the time, verifiable eyewitness accounts, and yes, even artifacts from the time that could be tested for authenticity.



Those are the things that are most germaine to this thread, not whether masonry, as a modern organization, is racist


The author of the thread made it very clear that he was very much against Freemasonry, and even condemned Freemasonry simply because he believes Pike was in the KKK. So it seems to me that yes, Pike's supposed KKK membership's effect on modern Freemasonry is part of the topic.



posted on Jul, 13 2005 @ 07:25 PM
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Originally posted by Cug

[snipped stuff]


Cug,

By your post, you've either a: never read Crowley's writings or b: you think his lack of morals and human decency is acceptable. That's your business.

I resent the hell out of you calling me a "liar" (which you did) but that's your choice, even though I KNOW what I'm talking about and not from speculation or sensationalist web-sites.

I said I did not wish to further discuss this subject and damn it I mean it.


Cug

posted on Jul, 13 2005 @ 08:10 PM
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Originally posted by senrak

Originally posted by Cug

[snipped stuff]


I resent the hell out of you calling me a "liar" (which you did) but that's your choice, even though I KNOW what I'm talking about and not from speculation or sensationalist web-sites.

I said I did not wish to further discuss this subject and damn it I mean it.




senrek, I never called you personally a liar, And I humbly apologize if I gave you that idea. But what you posted was false (not counting where you posted you opinion) and or missed the big picture a bit. (The white stains quote) Like I said I could care less if you think Crowley was a pervert. He was no angel, and was an as… err jerk who seemed to like burning bridges.


Honestly I don’t understand why you think I shouldn’t stand up for something I researched, like, enjoy, and believe in. The same way you stand up for something you researched, like, enjoy, and believe in. After all this is a discussion forum meant to discuss things.

Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.



posted on Jul, 13 2005 @ 08:26 PM
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Originally posted by Cug
Honestly I don’t understand why you think I shouldn’t stand up for something I researched, like, enjoy, and believe in. The same way you stand up for something you researched, like, enjoy, and believe in. After all this is a discussion forum meant to discuss things.
Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.


Cug,

You have every right to stand up for somethign you believe in. (Just like I do Freemasonry) but I've done more than research the topic at hand.

Regards



posted on Jul, 13 2005 @ 09:06 PM
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Senrak, Sebatwork, and all other pro-masons.

I deeply apologize for any remarks I made in the past concerning your responses to threads like this. After reading this thread I sympathize with you guys, and give much respect. Now I understand that without your presence here at ATS we would be left with this kind of drivel left unchallenged.




Anyway, back on topic.

This is pretty much a non-issue. If Pike was in the KKK, who cares. That proves nothing about masons. The masons that I know of (through ATS) have shown themselves to be good people who care about others, and belong to an orginization that promotes charity and good will towards others.

Think for a second.

What if the KKK evolved into a secret society that was benevolent and gave huge amounts to charity? What if the KKK gave up white supremacy and worked towards the good of all?

Would you hold the past against them?

It really doesn't matter if Pike was a flaming rascist or if he was in the KKK.

It doesn't reflect on masons in any way shape or form.

Masons are more than one person.

You might as well say all of today's germans are nazis, because of what happened fifty years ago.

It would make as much sense, and show how critically you think about things.



posted on Jul, 13 2005 @ 09:12 PM
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Originally posted by LeftBehind
Masons are more than one person.
You might as well say all of today's germans are nazis, because of what happened fifty years ago.


LeftBehind,

Thanks for the kind words. The fact that you now understand why we spend so much time and energy here makes it worthwhile!

Regards,


Cug

posted on Jul, 13 2005 @ 11:43 PM
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Originally posted by senrak
Cug,

You have every right to stand up for somethign you believe in. (Just like I do Freemasonry) but I've done more than research the topic at hand.

Regards


I don't doubt that you have. But so have I


But you posted things that are patently not true.


For example, where did Crowley proclaim himself “The wickedest man in the world?”

Someone writing for the John Bull Magazine, most probably the editor Horatio Bottomley (not the most honorable of men) wrote an article titled “The Wickedest man in the World“ published on March 24th 1923

That is a fact.

Now if you can show Crowley’s use of the term before 1923, or something after the publication of this article and where Crowley is not using the term as sarcasm. (or point me to where you think it appears, I have most of Crowleys work here.) Then I will accept your statement as fact. Otherwise I stand by my statement that Crowley never proclaimed himself as the wickedest man in the world.



A Short footnote:
Some other article titles from John Bull on storys about Crowley.

1923 March 10 - John Bull - The King Of Depravity
1923 March 17 - John Bull - A Wizard Of Wickedness
1923 May 16 - John Bull - A Man We'd Like To Hang


[edit on 7/13/2005 by Cug]



posted on Jul, 14 2005 @ 12:17 AM
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Originally posted by LeftBehind
Senrak, Sebatwork, and all other pro-masons.

I deeply apologize for any remarks I made in the past concerning your responses to threads like this. After reading this thread I sympathize with you guys, and give much respect. Now I understand that without your presence here at ATS we would be left with this kind of drivel left unchallenged.


I too appreciate your kind words, and agree with Senrak in saying that being able to help one person understand that what they know about Freemasonry is completely wrong makes all my time here worthwhile! If I can help you in any way or answer any questions for you, please do not hesitate to ask.



If Pike was in the KKK, who cares. That proves nothing about masons.


Some people are under the impression that Freemasons worship Albert Pike and/or his works. They don't realize that Pike, like MANY other masons, was just a brother who happened to write a lot about the Craft. But his influence as Commander of the Scottish Rite was limited to barely 1/6 of all Freemasons in the United States only. Masons in other parts of the world barely know who he is!



It would make as much sense, and show how critically you think about things.


The author of this post dislikes Freemasonry, and he is using Pike's alleged past as an excuse to "prove" that Freemasonry is evil. The logic in his argument is terribly flawed and it's obvious that he has meaningless reasons for disliking Freemasonry. That's why he hides his dislike for Freemasonry behind attacks on Albert Pike.



posted on Jul, 14 2005 @ 01:07 AM
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WOW - What a HEATED Debate! Why are members still Attacking each other?


I hate to sound like a Broken Record - but Crowley was a BRITISH CITIZEN! Was the American "KKK Society" accustomed to taking British Citizens in as Members? Wasn't the American attitude towards England still one of "Rebellion" at that time? Until you ANSWER this question "eudaimonia" your Credibility will continue to Shrink!

Crowley a Racist? Sure Crowley was a "White" Guy - but why would a White British RACIST be writing Poetry about: "Sucking on the Nipples of a Black Nubian Goddess"?


As for Pike - Senrak already answered the question - Pike Died in the late 1800's - the MODERN KKK that pops up in peoples minds when they think of the KKK didn't Exist until 1915!


I hate to break it to you guys - but MUCH of the Society of the 1800's was in fact Racist! We are still trying to Grow out of it - as Racism is WRONG! Much of the Post "1960's Revolution" Generation is no longer Racist!



posted on Jul, 14 2005 @ 10:14 AM
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Originally posted by Cug
For example, where did .....


Cug,

You've asked a couple of questions here and just so I don't fall into the category of ignoring questions and be accused of "trolling" again, I would respectfully ask you to re-read my post #1531585 above.
Specifically the part where I said that I do not wish to further discuss this.



posted on Jul, 14 2005 @ 10:26 AM
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[edit on 14-7-2005 by intrepid]



posted on Jul, 14 2005 @ 11:27 AM
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Oops, closed the wrong thread.


Reopenned.





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