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Expansion theory can be tested

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posted on Jul, 11 2005 @ 03:28 AM
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Most scientists say that the Universe is expanding. This means that Space itself is expanding. Does this mean that the Earth and the Moon will get further appart. I know that the Moon orbits the Earth due to Gravity so this may be unlikely. But If the Space between the Earth and the moon is really expanding, but cannot change the distance between the Earth and the Moon because of gravity. Wont there be a build up of force ie. Space trying to push the Earth and Moon appart, and Gravity holding them together. Sooner or later Space has to win and force the Earth and Moon to seperate right ?




posted on Jul, 11 2005 @ 03:52 AM
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When trying to explain the Universe as Expanding the idea they are trying to convey is of all of the volume of the Universe expanding rather than the actual space between objects getting bigger. An easy way to understand this is to imagine yourself with a friend in the middle of a huge baloon. Now if the baloon is blown into (matter travelling in all directions from a single starting point) it expands, though this does not mean that the space that is between you and your friend increases,(the earth and moon) though of course the space between both of you know and the outer edges of that baloon (our universe) is greater. Hope I got expalined that for you in an easy way.

Yes the earth is actually moving away from the moon at about 2-3 inches per year. In the past it was much closer to us. It will continue to move away from us slowly though this is due to mechanics and gravity and has nothing to do wit the Expansion of the Universe.

If you are really interested in this theory I really suggest you do some searches on Hubble(the man not the telescope) and how he first discovered and speculated an expanding universe.

MischviouslyExpandingUnderstanding

[edit on 11-7-2005 by MischeviousElf]



posted on Jul, 11 2005 @ 04:00 AM
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Even if space around us is expanding, all nearby matter is gravitationally (or on smaller scales through the strong nuclear force or the electomagnetic force) bound to each other so the space under us may be expanding, but it's expanding "under our feet" and we remain bound at constant distances to each other.

Yes the moon is moving away from the Earth slowly but that's because of its orbit not because of an expansion of space.



[edit on 7/11/2005 by djohnsto77]



posted on Jul, 11 2005 @ 08:54 AM
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So the Space around us is not increasing ?
Then why are galaxies and stuff moving away from each other ?
If you stretch space, wont that result in you obtaining more space if space is a vacuum, you are just enlarging the vacuum yes ?



posted on Jul, 11 2005 @ 09:29 AM
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I've always wondered what the Universe is expanding into???? If their is nothing past space and yet it's expanding, how is this possible?

siddhartsma....I think that their is a point where gravity doesn't play a role...for something like the earth and the moon they are to close together that gravity affects them...but in the case of a whole galaxy versus another, their isn't a gravitational force between the two that's srtong enough to hold them at the same distance...whcih allows for them to expand furthur apart with space.


and what about the theory about the universe being endless??? does this mean that you will simply come back to the same spot that you started at if you travel long enough?



posted on Jul, 11 2005 @ 01:15 PM
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Originally posted by MischeviousElf
Now if the baloon is blown into (matter travelling in all directions from a single starting point) it expands, though this does not mean that the space that is between you and your friend increases,(the earth and moon) though of course the space between both of you know and the outer edges of that baloon (our universe) is greater. Hope I got expalined that for you in an easy way.


This is a gross misstatement of the "expanding balloon" analogy of the expansion of the universe.

This analogy is as follows.

Take a balloon and draw dots all over it, close together but very small. Now inflate the balloon. As the balloon inflates, you can see that each dot is receding from each of the other dots. Pick a dot for reference and imagine it as remaining in the same spot. From this reference point, it is possible to see that as the balloon inflates, the dots that are farthest from your reference dot (as measured along the surface of the balloon) are receding from your reference dot at a faster rate than the dots that are nearby to your reference dot.

Substitute galaxies for dots, and the Milky Way for the reference dot, and you have a decent analogy of the universe's expansion.

Of course, the surface of the balloon is two dimensional, and the universe is (at least) four dimensional, but the concept is very similar. Instead of each dot being a galaxy, if you imagine each dot being the center of gravity of a galactic gravitational system, the analogy is more correct. You see, the Milky Way is part of a cluster of galaxies called the "Local Group". These galaxies are currently being effected by each others gravity, so some are approaching us while others are receding. This is purely a local effect though.

Harte



posted on Jul, 11 2005 @ 04:05 PM
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This is a gross misstatement of the "expanding balloon" analogy of the expansion of the universe.


Harte mmm think you may have made a gross misstatement of my original analogy ? maybe read siddharthsma first post before flaming me?

My anology was correct besides some bad gramah and spelling
type and post quickly... you see I was coveying the expanding universe theory/observations with the earths interaction with the moon... as originaly asked posted.

You see if you drew 2 dots to represent the Earth & Moon on the surface of the baloon and then blew it up... as you so studiously pointed out the distance between them would increase in direct correlation to the amount of volume the baloon stretched too.

So I take it then (must admit a bit baffled as you didnt hint at it in the rest of your post about dots!) that you are positing then from your rejection of my explanation and your obsession with dots that infact you are trying to convey to siddharthsma that yes indeed the expansion of the universe will be the force/factor that will increase the space/distance between us and the moon? and therefore indeed that the space and distance between all matterr is expanding? how much bigger are you this year than last I ask that assuming your an Adult?

Your anology may have been quite representational actually if you tweaked it a bit... e.g. work out the total volume that the baloon can occupy when inflated fully, scale this to the size of the known universe Measure the distance in the baloon from representations of the Universe of the probable place of the earth and the moon (very approximate of course
) Deflate then use some tweezeers to sticky tape some fishing line onto the inside of the ballon, the length of the wire and its position when the ballon is inflated (keeping the attached line on the top of the balloon as you inflate) and have two small maybe ball bearings or fishing shot to represent the Earth and Moon.... then all your dots on the outside would expand away from each other and the little gizmo inside would accurately describe the earth and moon!

siddharthsma an interesting thread...


MischeviouslyPoppingBaloons



posted on Jul, 12 2005 @ 06:12 PM
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Originally posted by MischeviousElf



This is a gross misstatement of the "expanding balloon" analogy of the expansion of the universe.


Harte mmm think you may have made a gross misstatement of my original analogy ? maybe read siddharthsma first post before flaming me?

My anology was correct besides some bad gramah and spelling
type and post quickly... you see I was coveying the expanding universe theory/observations with the earths interaction with the moon... as originaly asked posted.

You see if you drew 2 dots to represent the Earth & Moon on the surface of the baloon and then blew it up... as you so studiously pointed out the distance between them would increase in direct correlation to the amount of volume the baloon stretched too.

So I take it then (must admit a bit baffled as you didnt hint at it in the rest of your post about dots!) that you are positing then from your rejection of my explanation and your obsession with dots that infact you are trying to convey to siddharthsma that yes indeed the expansion of the universe will be the force/factor that will increase the space/distance between us and the moon? and therefore indeed that the space and distance between all matterr is expanding? how much bigger are you this year than last I ask that assuming your an Adult?

Your anology may have been quite representational actually if you tweaked it a bit... e.g. work out the total volume that the baloon can occupy when inflated fully, scale this to the size of the known universe Measure the distance in the baloon from representations of the Universe of the probable place of the earth and the moon (very approximate of course
) Deflate then use some tweezeers to sticky tape some fishing line onto the inside of the ballon, the length of the wire and its position when the ballon is inflated (keeping the attached line on the top of the balloon as you inflate) and have two small maybe ball bearings or fishing shot to represent the Earth and Moon.... then all your dots on the outside would expand away from each other and the little gizmo inside would accurately describe the earth and moon!

siddharthsma an interesting thread...


MischeviouslyPoppingBaloons


MischeviousElf,

LOL, sorry man, didn't mean to flame, guess I'm too used to the misuse of the dots on the ballon analogy.

Just to be clear here, the "universe" in my (borrowed) analogy is the balloon's surface, the interior is some elsewhere representing higher dimensions.

You could have just said to him, "No, the moon's proximity to the Earth means that the gravity between the two out-muscles the local expansion of the cosmos."

I read a good article on this in Scientific American a couple months ago. Turns out that yes, even the tiniest space would be expanding if the expansion wasn't more than overcome by other forces. So you and I would have an excuse for getting bigger if it wasn't for those darn covalent molecular bonds!

Harte



posted on Jul, 14 2005 @ 09:22 PM
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i reposted my view from another thread

space is bend, take the thought of shape out of ur mind for a second and imagine this

u leave on a space ship from the very center of the north pole. u go on a coarse at a straight path. no gravitational pulls direct u astray from this straight path at all. it goes straight all the way. now for a moment pretend the earth doesnt move at all it stays exactly in the same coordinates or spot. it u traveled this path u would end up eventually at the south pole. space would be bent. now dont go jumping into different shapes because it has no boundries. it would be the finite universe with no boundries. because space would be bend this could occur.

think of the world map. once u travel around the world ur at the same spot. but see the thing is we live in a 3 coordinate plane not 2. in other worlds we dont live in x,y. we live in x,y,z. so its finite in space but in a way u can never hit the end.

this is sumthing i have trouble explaining but i hope that made it more clear on my view



posted on Jul, 14 2005 @ 09:50 PM
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I think a very dry sponge is a better anaology of the expansion of the universe theory than the ballon one. Take a dry spnge add water and watch it expand and pretend the sponge holes are galaxies.

I do not think the Universe is expanding, and I do not believe the big bang created everything though. (galaxies may be moving apart but its a result of the blackhole engines at the center of galaxies not some magical expansion.

There may have been a big bang, but the universe is still bein gcreated one gas or dust particle at a time (outside of what we see now) (Look up dark matter galaxies), as a result of some yet to be dicovered quantum process that creates gas/dust out of nothingness in the absence of gravity.

Once enough gas/dust is created it begins the process of making suns/blackholes essentialy commulating into a light matter galaxy. Once an area is effectively controled by the first suns gravity the quantum process stops and that is why we have yet to discover this process

Just look at the evidence with an open mind and you will see how quantum energies were always there before during and after the first creation.

Gas/dust appear from the nothingness one particle at a time as a result of some yet to be dicovered quantum process. That is the answer to were we came from in my mind. Its so simple..





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