Recently there's been a lot of concern about fundamentalist Christians trying to brainwash kids into thinking that evolution is a controversial theory (i.e. scientifically unsound).
The Christian fundamentalists have formed a well organised community which has created a publicity machine lobbying very hard restrict the teachings of Darwinism. Their ideology is being spear headed through the philosophy of something called "intelligent design". Basically this states that many livings things are too complex for evolution to have created them.
The fundamentalists have even generated statistics reporting to show the improbability of evolution on such a complex level.

These statistics seem to ignore the fact there are many ways to solve almost any complex problem and that biology does just that, even when it is not the most efficient solution (as can be observed in two independent organisms facing the same job). This feature in biology has also been observed in many closely related organisms (bacterium’s, plants, insects, and animals alike).
Also by their nature these statistics are incapable of addressing the significance of redundant genes (against the statistic itself). Redundant genes are present in virtually every living thing, and their existence as past legacies (documented almost countless times) also strongly works in evolutions favour.

Naturally the fundamentalists want to put god in evolutions place but to do this they are carrying out their attack on a political level. Seeming to lack scientist who happen to be fundamentalist, some intelligent design proponents have even obtained degrees to boost their credentials. This was revealed in Newscientist 9th July 05 page 12.

Let me put this to you: An engineer who designs a plane without a pilot is more skilful than one who designs a plane dependant on one. Yet the passengers may feel safer on a plane with a pilot.
So a God who designs everything needed for a working universe at the dorn of time is surely more skilful than one who designs a universe which needs constant divine intervention (at least when it comes to evolution).

Are the fundamentalists of this world like passengers on a plane as they feel safe (reassured) in a universe where god constantly interferes as opposed to one where he doesn’t have to? Even though this would be superior universe and therefore more likely to by him? Even though unlike manmade things divine things don’t mess up?

The past and the future are written (you could travel to them if only could brake the speed of light). Also all movement below the speed of light takes you to the future as two atomic clocks on a stationary and air born plane once proved. The difference may be less than a millionth of a second in a lifetime but it’s real and is part of relativity.
Therefore why doesn’t God have the unpiloted perfectly planned model of creation? In fact look at all the evidence for evolution and it looks as though he already does!!! Ever heard of “Gods great plan” in the bible by the way?).



Yet in many socially “backward” U.S states they are winning the battle against science. As in contrast to evolution ID has passed zero scientific scrutiny (let alones decades of it) and holds not a single tangible achievement to its name. But even in Kansas the school governors are due to accommodate ID through revising scientific standards by accepting “adequate” as opposed to only “natural” scientific explanations. There may be “evidence” for ID but without scientific standards that apply to all things equally there may be “evidence” for everything and anything.

By denying evolution its place in science that fundamentalists are insulting God’s creation (as I tried to demonstrate). If by nothing else this will be punished through poorer science students.
And as the fundamentalists only motivation seems to be fear of a “clock work” reality and a desire to expand the church using some of the very means that Christianity stands against, I bet so too will the fundamentalists who pioneered ID for the wrong reasons. All this from me and I’m not even a Christian!!

But am I right or wrong?

Also please comment on “If God does interfere with evolution he does a pretty bad job given all the cancers and George Bush’s kicking around” Right or wrong? (Democrats first please).
P.S. I’ve written another version of this argument and am about to distribute it. But before I do I want to know if there are any pro ID people who think differently.

I really enjoyed this post. It reflects many of my own thoughts (not beliefs) on the subject. Well said. I look forward to your antithesis.

Zip

[edit on 7/11/2005 by Zipdot]

I cannot comment without first getting an answer to this question.

Is abiogenesis part of evolution? If so, then I would like to direct the conversation back to science and facts.

If not, then I do not see your beef with ID.

I.D. is merely evolution with some religion seasoning.

-- Off topic --
My POV is this:

It is an impossible comprimise that slaps Jesus Christ in the face.
If you believe ID then you may as well believe evolution fantasy straight out of the box.

Originally posted by jake1997
It is an impossible comprimise that slaps Jesus Christ in the face.
If you believe ID then you may as well believe evolution fantasy straight out of the box.

I've seen people get "warns" for calling Christianity "a figment of the imagination." Please stop calling evolutionary theory "evolution fantasy."

Zip

Originally posted by Liberal1984

Ever heard of “Gods great plan” in the bible by the way?).

Also please comment on “If God does interfere with evolution he does a pretty bad job given all the cancers

I don't believe you are referring to this, God's great plan in the Bible is that salvation is found in Christ. An individual's faith put in Christ's completed work on the cross removes a person's sin and restores that person to a relationship with God.

Cancer is a result of sin. Mankind rebelled against God and sin entered the world. Sin affects all of creation in many aspects. We are experiencing a world that has rejected God. That is why all the suffering and evil. Thank God, He does intervene or it would be worse than what it is now.

Originally posted by marg6043
Antibiotic-resistant bacteria illustrate the main concepts of evolution, selection and mutation, this is only one example of the many facts that hold the biological sciences and evolution.

If I bred a Beagle dog with a German Shepherd I would get offspring that looked different than the mother and father. But they are still dogs. Bacteria that becomes resistant to certain antibiotics is still bacteria.

Hum, my father have prostate cancer he is a devoted Christian so I guess by the assumptions of your post dbrant he is a sinner, for not believing enough.

I think my father is going to be very disappointed about how God is punishing him with cancer because the sin of creation.

Nice way to kill the faith of the sick, I have to give it to Christianity, not matter how your faith goes you are still guilty.

I am glad that even with his faith he choose science for his treatment.

Originally posted by marg6043
Hum, my father have prostate cancer he is a devoted Christian so I guess by the assumptions of your post dbrant he is a sinner, for not believing enough.

I think my father is going to be very disappointed about how God is punishing him with cancer because the sin of creation.

Nice way to kill the faith of the sick, I have to give it to Christianity, not matter how your faith goes you are still guilty.

I am glad that even with his faith he choose science for his treatment.

It's definitely good that he is seeing doctors for His cancer, that's what they are here for. I also hope he and others are going to God in prayer for healing also.

Where did I ever say that christians don't endure suffering and trials. It rains on the just and the unjust. Christians are still in this world and can suffer from everything the unsaved suffer from. The only difference is that God uses trials and tribulations and suffering to refine us to the image of Christ.

Malachi 3:3 says: "He will sit as a refiner and purifier of silver."

This verse puzzled some women in a Bible Study and they wondered what this statement meant about the character and nature of God. One of the women offered to find out the process of refining silver and get back to the group at their next Bible Study.

That week, the woman called a silversmith and made an appointment to watch him at work. She didn't mention anything about the reason for her interest except her curiosity for the process of refining silver. As she watched the silversmith, he held a piece of silver over the fire and let it heat up. He explained that in refining silver, one needed to hold the silver in the middle of the fire where the flames were hottest as to burn away all the impurities.

The woman thought about God holding us in such a hot spot then she thought again about the verse that says: "He sits as a refiner and purifier of silver." "Is it true that you have to sit there in front of the fire the whole time the silver is being refined", she asked. "Yes, not only do I sit there holding the silver I keep my eyes on it as long as it is on the furnace", answered the silversmith. He gave further explanation, "If the silver was left a moment too long in the flames, it would be destroyed".

The woman was silent for a moment. Then she asked the silversmith, "How do you know when the silver is fully refined?" He smiled at her and answered, "Oh, that's easy - when I see my image in it."

If today you are feeling the heat of the fire, remember that God has His eyes on you and will keep watching you until He sees His image in you.

Originally posted by Zipdot

Originally posted by jake1997
It is an impossible comprimise that slaps Jesus Christ in the face.
If you believe ID then you may as well believe evolution fantasy straight out of the box.

I've seen people get "warns" for calling Christianity "a figment of the imagination." Please stop calling evolutionary theory "evolution fantasy."

Zip

If you have seen that then the people who do it are very inconsistant. Please ask them to visit the conspiracy-religion forum and BTS's spirituallity forums more often.
I have seen people call christianity all kinds of things that are much worse than fantasy and get away with it.
The only facts there are about your fantasy is that there are no facts.
The billion missing links are still missing.
Evolution is still unobserved.
Natural selection is still another name for nothing.
No answers.
Only more 'theory'

I'm quite tempted to post a whole slew of Old Testament quotes to show dbrant that "original sin" as depicted in Christianity* (edit) was not invented until Christianity came around, and it's quite a bizarre idea. The phrase "original sin" does not exist in the Bible or in old Jewish writings. I'm not going to post those quotes, though, because the topic here has nothing to do with it.

We're talking about evolution being God's creation. Does no one have any thoughts on the subject? I like the author's airplane analogy.

Zip

[edit on 7/11/2005 by Zipdot]

You will find that 'fundamental' christians do NOT support ID.

ID is not biblical. We , the people who believe in the fundamentals taught by the God of the bible, agree with the author that ID is bunk.
Would you like some biblical support for the opening position? We will be glad to help you from our end.

I think the fight over our origins is not even about the actual issue anymore. Religion is just a product, sold like any other. It's about the numbers and how many people you can get to buy into your dogma.

The story of how we got here, or their version of it, is the foundation upon which all the rest of their beliefs are based. You can't buy any of the package, unless you buy this piece first.

The attacks on science in the schools by the religious is an obvious last ditch ploy to regain the opportunties for indoctrination that they lost in the last century. Yes, I said indoctrination. What else would you call it? The younger they are, the easier to program.

I think most of us assume, even though we can't prove it, that some organizational principle, motivational force, or prime cause, intellegent or not, was responsible for the creation of the universe. Anymore than that we truthfully cannot say, nor should we. If there is a "God", the insult to it's intellegence would be to think that we could comprehend it, or even more insulting, that we would assign human attributes and emotional states to it.

We are curious creatures. It is no insult to question and to speculate on the nature of God. It is an insult to claim those speculations as irrefutable fact, and attempt to force others to profess the same belief using fear, violence, and politics.

Hum, my father have prostate cancer he is a devoted Christian so I guess by the assumptions of your post dbrant he is a sinner, for not believing enough.

does your dad eat fruit seeds? does he crack the pit of a peach and eat what is inside? does he eat apricot seeds?
well the bible says in Genesis to eat the seed. so if he has cancer. its probably because he didnt eat right. and by the way, Vitamin B17 found in fruit seeds helps prevent cancer and can cure cancer if its not too out of control. so tell him to eat fruit seeds.
and even if he does die of cancer. has the thought ever crossed your mind, that maybe its time for him to be with God? I mean I would be happy for him, hes gonna see God. thats pretty awesome. I wouldnt mind seeing God. I wouldnt mind going to heaven right about now. I suggest you pray a little bit about what God wants with you and your father. and see why he has cancer.

You will find that 'fundamental' christians do NOT support ID

I dont think I would go around saying that we dont believe in ID. God is pretty Intelligent. pretty sure he knows what he is doing.
Creation does support ID they both go hand in glove.

by saying that Creation does not support ID, you are calling God dumb.

B1luetooth

Actually my father doesn't eat certain meats due to his religion, but he eats plenty of natural foods, because my mother has always been against any kind of food that is manufactured, their diet is low in fat and my father is a very slim man.

Also my parents eat plenty of sea food because PR is an Island, and that is the main food source.

The meat comes from fresh sources, my mother doesn't buy meats in the store, the chickens and other small animals are home raised and fed.

Right now the new thread for my father is colon cancer, he is undergoing test because they found some malignant polyps.

The doctor thought that the prostate cancer was coming back, but it’s now something else.

Sometimes I feel that most of the problems with our health now is due to the eviroment.

Originally posted by Zipdot
I've seen people get "warns" for calling Christianity "a figment of the imagination." Please stop calling evolutionary theory "evolution fantasy."

Zip

Well, that's just straight up ridiculous, in either instance. Considering the works of Descartes and Skepticism, perhaps we are being tricked in our beliefs, and reality is as imaginary as our own dreams. We need more philosophy on this board.

Originally posted by Liberal1984
Let me put this to you: An engineer who designs a plane without a pilot is more skilful than one who designs a plane dependant on one. Yet the passengers may feel safer on a plane with a pilot. So a God who designs everything needed for a working universe at the dorn of time is surely more skilful than one who designs a universe which needs constant divine intervention (at least when it comes to evolution).

Ever known anyone who gardens as a hobby?

Did you ever sit around on a weekend looking for something to do?

All living creatures of higher order intelligence engage in recreation, something to occupy their time. What makes you think God wouldn't have any intrest in interacting with what he has created? You have no clue what the Creator might have been thinking when he created the universe, so you can't really guess his motives, CAN YOU?

Tim

Intelligent design is a MUST for christianity. The Genesis account, when read states plainly that God created the world in 6 literal 24 hour days about 6,000 years ago, and that man sinned and was cast out of eden, and because of that death entered the world and becauseof that we need a savior. now if we accept that the world is millions of years old and that we evolved, we not only contradict scripture, but the cornerstone because when evolution comes into play we eliminate the need for a saviour. evolution demands death as part of the play, so we have millions of years of death, then why is the punishment for sin? why is it such a big deal? certainly spiritual death comes into play but physical death is a big part. so if there was already death, then who cares that they ate from the tree? my point is this, you cant pick and choose what part of the Bible to Believe, you have to accept all of it or none, especially Genesis.

Antibiotic-resistant bacteria illustrate the main concepts of evolution, selection and mutation, this is only one example of the many facts that hold the biological sciences and evolution.

I dont know how many places I have seen this since ive been on this site. but it does not prove a damn thing about evolution.
bacteria becoming resistant to antibiotics is from a loss of the locking capability to the drug. its because they lost the ability. no information was added.
and if your daughter does not know that, than she obviously didnt learn everything in biology.

Evolution as a biological sciences has been proven over and over again, so calling it a fantasy is not very accurate.

maybe not very accurate, but it still is accurate. have you ever seen any animal produce or even come from a totally different kind of animal?
let me help you out a little bit, have you ever seen a horse give birth to something other than some sort of variety of horse? if you have, im sorry you didnt get it on film.

Perhaps this link will enlighten some about how fossils can bring the real story of our origins. The site also covers the creationism.

what exactly can you tell about a fossil after its been sitting there for a few hundred years? it died... and what else?
you dont know if it had any kids and you cant prove what it gave birth to. I guess thats where the imagination comes into play.

My daughter is a biology major, and she will never call it a fantasy.

of course not, especially not to her professors, they would probably flunk her for doing so.

Natural selection is still another name for nothing.

true. its a conservative process, kinda like quality control. it doesnt create anything new.

EC