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Fascism, definition and why the USA qualifies

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posted on Jul, 8 2005 @ 11:50 PM
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Originally posted by goose
You wanted a definition, here is one. Also, you wanted to know how we qualify. Under each defining charcteristic look for what is in parenthesis for my explanation of how we in the USA qualify.
dictionary.reference.com...·cism ( P )

www.couplescompany.com...
1. Powerful and Continuing Nationalism -
Fascist regimes tend to make constant use of patriotic mottos, slogans, symbols, songs, and other paraphernalia. Flags are seen everywhere, as are flag symbols on clothing and in public displays.

goose writes (Do we even have to debate this one, flags eveywheres, homes, vehicles, flags being worn, which btw is a sign of disrespect but don't tell the idiots wearing them they think they are honoring the flag, flag jewelry, flag tattoos, I could go on and on with this one but I will stop.)

2. Disdain for
the Recognition of Human Rights -
Because of fear of enemies and the need for security, the people in fascist regimes are persuaded that human rights can be ignored in certain cases because of "need." The people tend to look the other way or even approve of torture, summary executions, assassinations, long incarcerations of prisoners, etc.

goose writes(need for security, patriot act 1&2 loss of rights due to increased fear and security measures, increased security measures, color coded security level that are served up to us on a daily basis. I am listing two articles that clearly point to this fact of accepted abuse for those we are at war with. I am listing the same website but you can find this information on other websites as well and many other instance of abuse
Abu Ghraib www.democracynow.org.../06/30/1333214 In the last few months, mainstream human rights groups have been calling for top U.S officials in the Bush administration to be held accountable for the torture and abuse of military prisoners at U.S detention centers around the world. In April, Human Rights Watch demanded that a special prosecutor be named to investigate Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld, former CIA director George Tenet and other top officials for possible war crimes related to the abuse. Last month, Amnesty International issued a damning report blasting the Bush administration for ignoring international law and mistreating detainees. The group criticized the Bush administration for failing to carry out a full and independent investigation of the torture at Abu Ghraib and for failing to hold any senior officials accountable.
Guantanamo Bay www.democracynow.org.../07/06/1428250

3. Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats
as a Unifying Cause -
The people are rallied into a unifying patriotic frenzy over the need to eliminate a perceived common threat or foe: racial , ethnic or religious minorities; liberals; communists; socialists, terrorists, etc.

goose writes ( well from the rhetoric attack by some on here for liberals, even in this same thread for liberal such as myself, well I think you should see the point on this one, thanks guys you made this one easy.LOL Then there is the muslim religion which we hear about on the mainstream news as being part of terrorism and then there are those middle easterners who are terrorists who hate our freedoms and us.

4. Supremacy of the Military -
Even when there are widespread domestic problems, the military is given a disproportionate amount of government funding, and the domestic agenda is neglected. Soldiers and military service are glamorized.
goose writes(please you really don't want me to go there do you, very well!
www.policyalmanac.org...
White House Office of Management and Budget, FY 2004 Federal Budget
February, 2003
FY 2004 Pentagon Budget
However, it takes more than increased funding to accomplish this goal. excerpt from link
also excerpt from linkTo achieve this goal, the 2004 Budget provides more than $9 billion. goose writes need I say more, education and most all social service programs cut)


5. Rampant Sexism -
The governments of fascist nations tend to be almost exclusively male-dominated. Under fascist regimes, traditional gender roles are made more rigid. Divorce, abortion and homosexuality are suppressed and the state is represented as the ultimate guardian of the family institution.
goose writes, (do I really have to even prove this one, Bush coming out to support marriage in defense against homeosexual marrying, the family moral president who is also speaking out at pro-life rally, once by telephone in front of the white house when a pro-life group gathered there. Psst Mr. President you have a high kill rate for execution of prisoners in Texas when you was governor, didn't anyone tell you the definition of execution. Also go here read the headlines.)
traditionalvalues.org...

6. Controlled Mass Media -
Sometimes to media is directly controlled by the government, but in other cases, the media is indirectly controlled by government regulation, or sympathetic media spokespeople and executives. Censorship, especially in war time, is very common.
goose writes (this one is one of my favorites, Armstrong Williams paid 240,000 dollar to promote the no child left behind act on his show, two more pundits later revealed paid for to speak out on Bush agenda.
www.democracynow.org.../01/28/1521232&mode=thread&tid=25
GOP Seeks $$$ to Bypass "Liberal Media Filter"
The Republican Party has launched an unusual new fundraising drive in order to finance efforts to get President Bush's message past what they describe as "the liberal media filter." On Wednesday Republican National Committee Chairman Ken Mehlman sent a fund-raising email that read "The president has great goals for our country: a growing economy, strong homeland and national defense, tort and Social Security reform and affordable health care. But we need your help to get the president's message past the liberal media filter and directly to the American people."

Bush Vows To Stop Paying Off Pundits
Also on Wednesday President Bush vowed his administration would stop hiring columnists to promote administration policies. Over the past month it has been revealed that the Bush administration secretly paid off two prominent pundits, Maggie Gallagher and Armstrong Williams
goose writes remember you guys asked me to do this)

7. Obsession with National Security -
Fear is used as a motivational tool by the government over the masses.
goose writes( Bush mentions 911 recently in his speech 5 times 34 times the word terror or terrorists in one recent speech, need I say more but I see no need to elaborate on this one, its a given)

8. Religion and Government are Intertwined -
Governments in fascist nations tend to use the most common religion in the nation as a tool to manipulate public opinion. Religious rhetoric and terminology is common from government leaders, even when the major tenets of the religion are diametrically opposed to the government's policies or actions.
goose writes( Now this one is just too easy but here goes, Bush and the photo op and meeting with the pope, the symbolic pics of Bush making speeches with religious backgrounds the halo effect I call it, the religious rhetoric in every speech and then there is this.)
traditionalvalues.org...

9. Corporate Power is Protected -
The industrial and business aristocracy of a fascist nation often are the ones who put the government leaders into power, creating a mutually beneficial business/government relationship and power elite.
goose writes( Halliburton, see www.halliburtonwatch.org...
Enron Kenny boy Bush's pet name for Kenneth Lay
www.buzzflash.com...

Ok I am sure I will get chewed out for taking up this much space so I must stop, (I was having too much fun, this was just too easy, be careful what you asked for next time), but here is the link that does what you ask for all 14. www.oldamericancentury.org...



You don't understand... It's not like some conspirationalists cannot make this points fit to the US. These points are not the defionition of fascism. THIS "DEFINITION" WAS SPECIALLY FABRICATED TO FIT USA. And in fact it can fit almost every regime in the history EXCEPT Hitler's Germany (proof - As I already wrote the Hitler wanted to abolish christianity and replace it with nordic religion/ideology that means he doesn't fit the point concerning support of major religion- THIS example clearly shows this points were not made to fit fascist regimes. It is simple propaganda work made so, that it can create associations with US - although much of these points I invalid also in relation to US as seen above in my first post. )




posted on Jul, 8 2005 @ 11:50 PM
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However, this is a political thread, not a WoT thread.
Please post in the proper places.



posted on Jul, 9 2005 @ 12:10 AM
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Originally posted by soulforge
Oh your link to the Fascism definition is not biased at all...


You just keep up your hate, and your disdain, and keep yelling Fascism. You make my argument for me.
................

Oh, and for God's sake..... Hitler was not a Fascist, He was a Nazi. MUSSOLINI was a Fascist!

[edit on 7/8/2005 by soulforge]


The hostility you display for alternative viewpoints on this thread is duly noted.

That smacks of fascism.

[edit on 7/9/05 by EastCoastKid]

[edit on 9-7-2005 by Thomas Crowne]



posted on Jul, 9 2005 @ 12:16 AM
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Well, unless you've been in a cave the last 15 or so years, you'd realize that the ones in power are becoming more blatant in their disdain for the constitution.
I did not click through the link, but I'm sure it is the same tailor-made one to try and put the U.S. in a particular hole, but I'll say this; our country ain't like the Founding Fathers wanted it to be!



posted on Jul, 9 2005 @ 03:48 AM
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Originally posted by Thomas Crowne
However, this is a political thread, not a WoT thread.
Please post in the proper places.


Why did you not make this comment to me in the U2U you sent about moving the thread? I saw it as a WOT thread due to the fact that 911 was used extensively to promote some of the agendas and ideas that have led us to where we are currently in America and are due to the WOT. Perhaps it was wrong of me to put it there but it is not always easy to decide where something goes and most time when I write a note back apoligizing for my mistake most mods tell me its ok that many people make similar mistakes and not to worry, they generally don't confront me in the thread about it. If I caused you any problems I am sorry that was not my intent but I see no reason why you should feel the need to bring it up in this thread when you could have sent me a U2U about it.



posted on Jul, 9 2005 @ 08:06 AM
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I wholeheartily agree with Thomas Crowne. The country is slipping down a dangerous path, a path not intended by the forefathers. It is not a fascism right path, nor a socialist left path. One cannot define it right now as anything more and an oligarchical path.

The corporate world pushes for more and more, with the help of the courts and government (Example: Isn't anyone else outraged and there is no more second half to the fifth amendment? Government can take your land and give it to the rich, or the corporations, for pennies on the dollar in value.) This was a court decision by the LEFT of the Supreme Court, not the right.

The government presses for more and more control because of terror, poverty, debt, and human rights, even to the point of restricting the rights of others. It is classic socialism. Cut the populace into groups (black, white, rich, poor, gay, straight), and let them fight in court, in the legislature, (or physically) for finite resources(not that resources are finite, but many believe they are). The government, the rich, and the corporations sit atop the class structure dictating to the masses, and watch the grand game.

The government has become what Marx warned us about, not the corporations.

[edit on 7/9/2005 by soulforge]



posted on Jul, 9 2005 @ 12:29 PM
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Originally posted by soulforge
It's not a left right thing, it's more of a 3-d thing. One must think in three dimensions when it comes to forms of government. You sort of have to map out control of individual liberty and government control on the axises. In my mind, Fascism is socialism going into total control mode, which swings it totally to the opposite right wing pole. One cannot have fascism without heavy government control of the means of production. Often times Fascist and communists vied for the same audience and constituency.


Actually you're wrong there.

It's possible for the MoP/Big Business to control the Government once they get enough money and to turn it into a fascist Government. Also talka bout throwing it around "Socialism" and "Communism" can't be a fascist Government to be a Socialist or Communistic Government.



posted on Jul, 11 2005 @ 07:45 AM
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I got to thinking about the whole left-right thing, along with political forms, on Friday. I came across this article from Jerry Pournelle, one of my fav. scifi writers. It puts a twist on the ideological map of political philosophies.

www.baen.com...



posted on Jul, 11 2005 @ 03:15 PM
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Originally posted by AlwaysLearning

Originally posted by longbow
People like you should take a holliday in 1930-1945 Germany,. Only than you will realize what fascism really is instead of talking BS.


Truth hurts I guess, eh longbow? Please do see my signature - then come back and tell me what the definition of fascism is and how the U.S. does not qualify these days. Nazism is not the only form of Fascism - one one facet.


Damn, I read your signature, I must believe you are the truth bearer now!


Indeed, take a trip back to 1930- 1945 Germany...

And also, while your playing the tourist, why don't you take a trip over to the middle east, walk around the streets for awhile and see what happens to your head...

Are you as so ignorant to believe that muslim extrememists aren't planted around the world strategically planning and plotting their next move?
Are you so ignorant to believe that bombing occured before 911?
Do you actually believe the train bombings in Madrid were planted by bush as well?
Are you too ignorant to listen to the muslims that admit they are extremists within their religion?

Your signature won't change people's minds about this issue as easily as you may have hoped it would...

Plus one woman's view on an issue doesn't always make the view true.

It's a view.. not the gospel truth.



posted on Jul, 13 2005 @ 11:07 PM
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Originally posted by TrueLies
It's a view.. not the gospel truth.



Yet, it is a view. Like it or not.



posted on Jul, 17 2005 @ 06:48 PM
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Originally posted by soulforge
Oh your link to the Fascism definition is not biased at all...


You just keep up your hate, and your disdain, and keep yelling Fascism. You make my argument for me.



...lovely people for the most part and of course beautiful land. Besides, it would be like hating my friends and immediate family (born and naturalized)...of which I have many south of the border.

You know, sometimes those on the outside looking in can see your problems better than you...and I'm sorry to tell you, my American friend, that your country has headed down a slippery slope. It has lost all credibility in the world community. I will admit that I do detest the actions of your government(s), lies and exagerations, and your country's foreign policy in general. The 20th century...and so far in the 21st, the U.S. has not walked softly...but she certainly has carried that big stick and has used it to beat up on the world too many times in an attempt to control the political situations in many a land. I fear, however, that it has not been to help the little people most of the time, contrary to what is reported...it has been to help the rich and corrupt to line their pockets. The U.S. has so much blood on its hands as a result it will never wash off.

Mussolini said that fascism should more properly be called "corporatism" since it was, under Mussolini, a blending of state and corporate power. I think there's a whole lot of that going on these days in your government.

But since you disagree so vehemently with my signature...I'd like you to tell me how the U.S. doesn't fall into more of those categories than doesn't. I'd be interested to hear your take on it and would respect your opinion.





[edit on 17/7/05 by AlwaysLearning]



posted on Jul, 18 2005 @ 06:20 AM
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Originally posted by AlwaysLearning

Originally posted by soulforge
Oh your link to the Fascism definition is not biased at all...


You just keep up your hate, and your disdain, and keep yelling Fascism. You make my argument for me.



...lovely people for the most part and of course beautiful land. Besides, it would be like hating my friends and immediate family (born and naturalized)...of which I have many south of the border.

You know, sometimes those on the outside looking in can see your problems better than you...and I'm sorry to tell you, my American friend, that your country has headed down a slippery slope. It has lost all credibility in the world community. I will admit that I do detest the actions of your government(s), lies and exagerations, and your country's foreign policy in general. The 20th century...and so far in the 21st, the U.S. has not walked softly...but she certainly has carried that big stick and has used it to beat up on the world too many times in an attempt to control the political situations in many a land. I fear, however, that it has not been to help the little people most of the time, contrary to what is reported...it has been to help the rich and corrupt to line their pockets. The U.S. has so much blood on its hands as a result it will never wash off.

Mussolini said that fascism should more properly be called "corporatism" since it was, under Mussolini, a blending of state and corporate power. I think there's a whole lot of that going on these days in your government.

But since you disagree so vehemently with my signature...I'd like you to tell me how the U.S. doesn't fall into more of those categories than doesn't. I'd be interested to hear your take on it and would respect your opinion.





[edit on 17/7/05 by AlwaysLearning]


You might be suprised that I agree with a lot of what you have said(See my response right above.).

Yes, I believe that the US may be slipping into the Mussolini-type corporatism that you mention. My point is, Fascism keeps getting screamed about when talking of the right, when in fact it is not right or left, it is those in power, whether they be right or left.

My problem with some of what you'd said starts with the Fascist finger pointing at Bush in particular. The problem is more systemic and varied than that, and Bush is but one head of the Hydra. Given a different election result, the problem would have remained with Kerry. Kerry is part of a northeast democratic power base with, arguable, more power than Bush and the texas block has ever had. If you want to go totally conspiracist, both are Skull and Bones, and those in power would have had their man no matter what the outcome. So, my main arguement is....Say what you said without using the polarizing Fascist catch phrase, and you'll find that a lot of people agree with you.

[edit on 7/18/2005 by soulforge]



posted on Jul, 18 2005 @ 06:48 AM
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As the op I have to agree with you, I pointed the finger at Bush but you are correct it would have went on no matter which one is in power and the truth is this has been coming on for sometime now including under the Clinton Administration and before, but never more blatantly and quickly than with this current administration. Which might be a good thing it is happening so quickly that many can't help but see it while others turn around and stick their heads in the sand to avoid seeing the truth. Had it progressed more slowly many of us would never have even noticed or believed it. I don't know what or if we the people can do to change it or even if we can.



posted on Jul, 18 2005 @ 07:57 AM
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Originally posted by soulforge
Yes, I believe that the US may be slipping into the Mussolini-type corporatism that you mention. My point is, Fascism keeps getting screamed about when talking of the right, when in fact it is not right or left, it is those in power, whether they be right or left.

My problem with some of what you'd said starts with the Fascist finger pointing at Bush in particular. The problem is more systemic and varied than that, and Bush is but one head of the Hydra. Given a different election result, the problem would have remained with Kerry. Kerry is part of a northeast democratic power base with, arguable, more power than Bush and the texas block has ever had. If you want to go totally conspiracist, both are Skull and Bones, and those in power would have had their man no matter what the outcome. So, my main arguement is....Say what you said without using the polarizing Fascist catch phrase, and you'll find that a lot of people agree with you.

[edit on 7/18/2005 by soulforge]


Hi soulforge -
I guess we were at cross purposes because I agree with you too. I have come to realize that the head of state - doesn't really matter who it is because he is the mouthpiece whose strings are being pulled from behind the scenes. I guess with the latest government it is particularly blatant though (previously governments were better are hiding their true intentions. And the results are more and more devastating which each passing day. At some point I wonder to myself...falling back on old beliefs...which governments did the most damage around the world...the left-leaning, or the right-leaning?

Listen, I was pretty blind for about the first year after 9/11...then I started to research and study the potential root causes for who, what, where, why and when...and the most important question: who benefits? That lead me to look at many of the activities of your governments going back in time. More often than not -its U.S. corporations/governments that have benefitted from many of its actions.

I found this little op/ed which I'd like you to read - tell me what you think. It does refer to fighting the fascists in Spain...a different time to be sure, but there are striking similarities to that time and what is happening in America now. Read this

I'm glad we understand each other a little better now.



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