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Fascism, definition and why the USA qualifies

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posted on Jul, 8 2005 @ 02:30 AM
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I remember when 911 happened thinking that if the official story was true that Al Queida had just made Bush an early Christmas present. Flags started going out immediately, people gathered around proudly waving their flags and supporting Bush and company. No one benefitted more than the Bush Administration and their friends like halliburton on that day 9/11/01. I knew trouble in the USA would increase from that day on and it has.


www.couplescompany.com...

An interesting note to end this article: As of January 2004, the United States fulfills all fourteen points of fascism and all seven warning signs are present. But we're not alone. Israel also fulfills all fourteen points and all seven warning signs as well. Welcome to the new republic, redefined, revised and spun. It is not too late to reverse this in either country, but it will be soon. The first step is realizing it. The second step is getting involved. As the propaganda slogan disguising our current war goes, "Freedom isn't free." But our war for freedom isn't abroad; it's here at home.




posted on Jul, 8 2005 @ 04:09 AM
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I agree.

The US government is barely crypo-fascist, the fascist element is quite glaring.



posted on Jul, 8 2005 @ 08:33 AM
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Here is a short video that I found about present day America and the fourteen points of fascism..Video

Im not saying if I agree or disagree with the message it is putting across and I am in no way trying to be anti-American.

I just thought the video might compliment this thread.




posted on Jul, 8 2005 @ 09:47 AM
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I really get sick of the Fascist ranting thrown around. It's really simple if you look up the actual definitions on the internet.

It's not a left right thing, it's more of a 3-d thing. One must think in three dimensions when it comes to forms of government. You sort of have to map out control of individual liberty and government control on the axises. In my mind, Fascism is socialism going into total control mode, which swings it totally to the opposite right wing pole. One cannot have fascism without heavy government control of the means of production. Often times Fascist and communists vied for the same audience and constituency.

Simply put, Fascism is the new buzz word for those on the left to throw at the right. On a conspiracy site such as this, you see the radicals all around. Once I hear the words Fascism and Bush in the same sentence, I'll tune you out, because you are the type that cannot be reasoned with.

Flag waving is not fascist, it's jingoistic. Jingoism is the real fear I have, not fascism. Look it up...



posted on Jul, 8 2005 @ 09:53 AM
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and yes, I agree with absolutely, goose. Good post!



posted on Jul, 8 2005 @ 11:24 AM
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People like you should take a holliday in 1930-1945 Germany,. Only than you will realize what fascism really is instead of talking BS.



posted on Jul, 8 2005 @ 11:58 AM
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Originally posted by longbow
People like you should take a holliday in 1930-1945 Germany,. Only than you will realize what fascism really is instead of talking BS.


Truth hurts I guess, eh longbow? Please do see my signature - then come back and tell me what the definition of fascism is and how the U.S. does not qualify these days. Nazism is not the only form of Fascism - one one facet.



[edit on 8/7/05 by AlwaysLearning]



posted on Jul, 8 2005 @ 01:28 PM
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Oh your link to the Fascism definition is not biased at all...


You just keep up your hate, and your disdain, and keep yelling Fascism. You make my argument for me.

If you want a definition for Fascism, go to a credible source like wikipedia, not the rantings of a stoned socialist.

exalts the nation, (and sometimes the race or culture) above the individual, with the state apparatus being supreme.

stresses loyalty to a single leader.

uses violence and modern techniques of propaganda and censorship to forcibly suppress political opposition.

engages in severe economic and social regimentation.

engages in a syndicalist form of corporatism.

implements totalitarian systems.


Fascism requires a strong leader. According to the left, Bush is an idiot. So, what is it, idiot or fascist mastermind?

Unless someone comes around and invalidates the Constitution anytime soon(though the Supreme Court scares me) I don't see Bush being President in three years, I see Hillary Clinton being President.

THEN I'll be worried......



Oh, and for God's sake..... Hitler was not a Fascist, He was a Nazi. MUSSOLINI was a Fascist!

[edit on 7/8/2005 by soulforge]



posted on Jul, 8 2005 @ 01:48 PM
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Originally posted by AlwaysLearning

Originally posted by longbow
People like you should take a holliday in 1930-1945 Germany,. Only than you will realize what fascism really is instead of talking BS.


Truth hurts I guess, eh longbow? Please do see my signature - then come back and tell me what the definition of fascism is and how the U.S. does not qualify these days. Nazism is not the only form of Fascism - one one facet.


In fact fascism was so loosely based philosophy that's it's not possible to define it, unlike communism for example. Those definition in your link is just purpose fabricated.



1. Powerful and Continuing Nationalism -
Fascist regimes tend to make constant use of patriotic mottos, slogans, symbols, songs, and other paraphernalia. Flags are seen everywhere, as are flag symbols on clothing and in public displays. TOP

This is simply patriotism or nationalism. I suppose the american revolutionries ware fascist too, because they waved with flags.



5. Rampant Sexism -
The governments of fascist nations tend to be almost exclusively male-dominated. Under fascist regimes, traditional gender roles are made more rigid.

Condoleeza Rice for example is man?


6. Controlled Mass Media -
Sometimes to media is directly controlled by the government, but in other cases, the media is indirectly controlled by government regulation, or sympathetic media spokespeople and executives. Censorship, especially in war time, is very common.


Now can anyone explain me how is the US media censored?



8. Religion and Government are Intertwined -
Governments in fascist nations tend to use the most common religion in the nation as a tool to manipulate public opinion. Religious rhetoric and terminology is common from government leaders, even when the major tenets of the religion are diametrically opposed to the government's policies or actions.


Not true. In Nazi Germany the most common religion was christianship. But Hitler hated the Christians (he wanted to hang the pope) and he wanted to bring back old nordic mystic religions. That means, according to this point Hitler was not fascist...



10. Labor Power is Suppressed -
Because the organizing power of labor is the only real threat to a fascist government, labor unions are either eliminated entirely, or are severely suppressed.


Just because the "power of labor" was big threat to Hitler (because of commie connections) doesn't mean it must be so today too. And in past the labour unions were handled much more har
shly they were often killed during the strikes. Today it's much better.



12. Obsession with Crime and Punishment -
Under fascist regimes, the police are given almost limitless power to enforce laws. The people are often willing to overlook police abuses and even forego civil liberties in the name of patriotism. There is often a national police force with virtually unlimited power in fascist nations.

So US police has unlimited powers
. In other coutries (maybe except UK, Canada and Netherlands) the police has much more powers, be sure. And again they have MUCH less powers than in past.



14. Fraudulent Elections -
Sometimes elections in fascist nations are a complete sham. Other times elections are manipulated by smear campaigns against or even assassination of opposition candidates, use of legislation to control voting numbers or political district boundaries, and manipulation of the media. Fascist nations also typically use their judiciaries to manipulate or control elections.

When were the election in US fraudulent? The people simply voted as the wanted. Just because someone ( me too) doesn't like the outcome, doesn't mean the elections were fraudulent.


[edit on 8-7-2005 by longbow]



posted on Jul, 8 2005 @ 02:24 PM
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I disagree with the U.S. exploitation here. Clearly you have not researched your history. Upon the third Reich manifesting it's ugly head, it did so off the Hitler youth. An organization purported to bring boys off the street and get them involved in sports turned into an organization you were forced to join, however, never verbally. The Hitler youth was the ultimate boy scout group where Hitler himself, the leader of a nation, praised and adored your abilities. Within the Hitler youth anti-semitism was taught as the children were molded into modern day warriors. Once you control the children you control the parents. Also your theory of America being another "form" of fascism is the same as saying America is another form of communism. Try creating a new definition, there are many doctorates who have already done so - don't try to make the circle fit in the square.



posted on Jul, 8 2005 @ 02:44 PM
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Well, goose, by your definition (silly as it is) I suppose Stalinist USSR, Mao's PRC, Ceaucescu's Romania, Hoxha's Albania, and Kim's DPRK would certainly qualify as "fascist", as would Ba'ath Iraq and Syria, Mugabe's Zimbabwe, Taliban Afghanistan, and Gaddafi's Libya.

Yet for some reason neither you nor the authors you quote seem to mention those abovementioned bastions of decency and democracy.

I wonder why that is? Hmmmmm.



posted on Jul, 8 2005 @ 02:59 PM
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Off the Street,

Good point about the selective mentioning of Fascism.
goose seems to have sidestepped that part...or maybe goose-stepped would be a better word.

And if the US meets all 14 points, in the definition, there must be DEGREES
to each of those points..


Because the regimes you mentioned were/are all obvioulsy worse than this horrible fascist country called the US..

So goose, what are the degrees to each of those points...or is this just generic America bashing?



posted on Jul, 8 2005 @ 03:07 PM
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en.wikipedia.org...


Today, very few groups proclaim themselves as fascist, and the term almost universally is used for groups for whom the speaker has little regard, often with minimal understanding of what the term actually means. The term "fascist" or "Nazi" is often ascribed to individuals or groups who are perceived to behave in an authoritarian manner; by silencing opposition, judging personal behavior, or otherwise attempting to concentrate power. More particularly, "fascist" is sometimes used by members of the Left to characterize some group or persons of the Right. This usage receded much following the 1970s, but has enjoyed a strong resurgence in connection with Anti-globalization activism.


maybe this is the reason why people are trying to portray America as fascist state they wish she is a fascist country. in anicase it aint gonna work.



posted on Jul, 8 2005 @ 04:07 PM
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Originally posted by Off_The_Street
Well, goose, by your definition (silly as it is) I suppose Stalinist USSR, Mao's PRC, Ceaucescu's Romania, Hoxha's Albania, and Kim's DPRK would certainly qualify as "fascist", as would Ba'ath Iraq and Syria, Mugabe's Zimbabwe, Taliban Afghanistan, and Gaddafi's Libya.

Yet for some reason neither you nor the authors you quote seem to mention those abovementioned bastions of decency and democracy.

I wonder why that is? Hmmmmm.


ummm.....go to wikipedia, most of those are specifically mentioned as Fascist-like

And don't forget Shahist Iran, Pakistan, and Saudi Arabia.

[edit on 7/8/2005 by soulforge]



posted on Jul, 8 2005 @ 07:45 PM
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You wanted a definition, here is one. Also, you wanted to know how we qualify. Under each defining charcteristic look for what is in parenthesis for my explanation of how we in the USA qualify.
dictionary.reference.com...·cism ( P )

www.couplescompany.com...
1. Powerful and Continuing Nationalism -
Fascist regimes tend to make constant use of patriotic mottos, slogans, symbols, songs, and other paraphernalia. Flags are seen everywhere, as are flag symbols on clothing and in public displays.

goose writes (Do we even have to debate this one, flags eveywheres, homes, vehicles, flags being worn, which btw is a sign of disrespect but don't tell the idiots wearing them they think they are honoring the flag, flag jewelry, flag tattoos, I could go on and on with this one but I will stop.)

2. Disdain for
the Recognition of Human Rights -
Because of fear of enemies and the need for security, the people in fascist regimes are persuaded that human rights can be ignored in certain cases because of "need." The people tend to look the other way or even approve of torture, summary executions, assassinations, long incarcerations of prisoners, etc.

goose writes(need for security, patriot act 1&2 loss of rights due to increased fear and security measures, increased security measures, color coded security level that are served up to us on a daily basis. I am listing two articles that clearly point to this fact of accepted abuse for those we are at war with. I am listing the same website but you can find this information on other websites as well and many other instance of abuse
Abu Ghraib www.democracynow.org.../06/30/1333214 In the last few months, mainstream human rights groups have been calling for top U.S officials in the Bush administration to be held accountable for the torture and abuse of military prisoners at U.S detention centers around the world. In April, Human Rights Watch demanded that a special prosecutor be named to investigate Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld, former CIA director George Tenet and other top officials for possible war crimes related to the abuse. Last month, Amnesty International issued a damning report blasting the Bush administration for ignoring international law and mistreating detainees. The group criticized the Bush administration for failing to carry out a full and independent investigation of the torture at Abu Ghraib and for failing to hold any senior officials accountable.
Guantanamo Bay www.democracynow.org.../07/06/1428250

3. Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats
as a Unifying Cause -
The people are rallied into a unifying patriotic frenzy over the need to eliminate a perceived common threat or foe: racial , ethnic or religious minorities; liberals; communists; socialists, terrorists, etc.

goose writes ( well from the rhetoric attack by some on here for liberals, even in this same thread for liberal such as myself, well I think you should see the point on this one, thanks guys you made this one easy.LOL Then there is the muslim religion which we hear about on the mainstream news as being part of terrorism and then there are those middle easterners who are terrorists who hate our freedoms and us.

4. Supremacy of the Military -
Even when there are widespread domestic problems, the military is given a disproportionate amount of government funding, and the domestic agenda is neglected. Soldiers and military service are glamorized.
goose writes(please you really don't want me to go there do you, very well!
www.policyalmanac.org...
White House Office of Management and Budget, FY 2004 Federal Budget
February, 2003
FY 2004 Pentagon Budget
However, it takes more than increased funding to accomplish this goal. excerpt from link
also excerpt from linkTo achieve this goal, the 2004 Budget provides more than $9 billion. goose writes need I say more, education and most all social service programs cut)


5. Rampant Sexism -
The governments of fascist nations tend to be almost exclusively male-dominated. Under fascist regimes, traditional gender roles are made more rigid. Divorce, abortion and homosexuality are suppressed and the state is represented as the ultimate guardian of the family institution.
goose writes, (do I really have to even prove this one, Bush coming out to support marriage in defense against homeosexual marrying, the family moral president who is also speaking out at pro-life rally, once by telephone in front of the white house when a pro-life group gathered there. Psst Mr. President you have a high kill rate for execution of prisoners in Texas when you was governor, didn't anyone tell you the definition of execution. Also go here read the headlines.)
traditionalvalues.org...

6. Controlled Mass Media -
Sometimes to media is directly controlled by the government, but in other cases, the media is indirectly controlled by government regulation, or sympathetic media spokespeople and executives. Censorship, especially in war time, is very common.
goose writes (this one is one of my favorites, Armstrong Williams paid 240,000 dollar to promote the no child left behind act on his show, two more pundits later revealed paid for to speak out on Bush agenda.
www.democracynow.org.../01/28/1521232&mode=thread&tid=25
GOP Seeks $$$ to Bypass "Liberal Media Filter"
The Republican Party has launched an unusual new fundraising drive in order to finance efforts to get President Bush's message past what they describe as "the liberal media filter." On Wednesday Republican National Committee Chairman Ken Mehlman sent a fund-raising email that read "The president has great goals for our country: a growing economy, strong homeland and national defense, tort and Social Security reform and affordable health care. But we need your help to get the president's message past the liberal media filter and directly to the American people."

Bush Vows To Stop Paying Off Pundits
Also on Wednesday President Bush vowed his administration would stop hiring columnists to promote administration policies. Over the past month it has been revealed that the Bush administration secretly paid off two prominent pundits, Maggie Gallagher and Armstrong Williams
goose writes remember you guys asked me to do this)

7. Obsession with National Security -
Fear is used as a motivational tool by the government over the masses.
goose writes( Bush mentions 911 recently in his speech 5 times 34 times the word terror or terrorists in one recent speech, need I say more but I see no need to elaborate on this one, its a given)

8. Religion and Government are Intertwined -
Governments in fascist nations tend to use the most common religion in the nation as a tool to manipulate public opinion. Religious rhetoric and terminology is common from government leaders, even when the major tenets of the religion are diametrically opposed to the government's policies or actions.
goose writes( Now this one is just too easy but here goes, Bush and the photo op and meeting with the pope, the symbolic pics of Bush making speeches with religious backgrounds the halo effect I call it, the religious rhetoric in every speech and then there is this.)
traditionalvalues.org...

9. Corporate Power is Protected -
The industrial and business aristocracy of a fascist nation often are the ones who put the government leaders into power, creating a mutually beneficial business/government relationship and power elite.
goose writes( Halliburton, see www.halliburtonwatch.org...
Enron Kenny boy Bush's pet name for Kenneth Lay
www.buzzflash.com...

Ok I am sure I will get chewed out for taking up this much space so I must stop, (I was having too much fun, this was just too easy, be careful what you asked for next time), but here is the link that does what you ask for all 14. www.oldamericancentury.org...



posted on Jul, 8 2005 @ 07:45 PM
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The US still has a long way to go to live up to the facist regimes of the past(you know Italy and Germany) and so far I do not hear reports of death camps, concentration camps et al. I fear that is the road the USA is travelling down, but then again there is as good a chance for a Secular Imperial system emerging over the next 20 years, and the only facist parts about it will be the propaganda style, but then again any good dictatorship of the past 60 years took pages out of the Nazi propaganda rulebook.



posted on Jul, 8 2005 @ 07:49 PM
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Goose,
good work you make an interesting point and dont degenerate into america hating. Your right we our on the wrong path domestically and i dont know what we can do ither than hangtight till 08.



posted on Jul, 8 2005 @ 08:08 PM
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Originally posted by soulforge

In my mind, Fascism is socialism going into total control mode, which swings it totally to the opposite right wing pole. One cannot have fascism without heavy government control of the means of production.


I think Mussolini said it best when he said that facism is the combination of state and corporate power.

Facism was a burgeoning thing in this country before the Nazis gave it a bad rep, so to speak. Odd to see pictures of George Washington paintings surrounded by swatstikas. Johnson was always compared to Hitler, Clinton was, etc., so it's a popular thing for dissidents to use facism and their opponents in the same sentence, whether they're lefties or righties.

As far as heavy government control of production, well that exists in the US in many ways. Look at governmental role in agriculture, aviation, auto industry, etc., etc.



posted on Jul, 8 2005 @ 08:25 PM
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Originally posted by Jeremiah_John
As far as heavy government control of production, well that exists in the US in many ways. Look at governmental role in agriculture, aviation, auto industry, etc., etc.


I am seriously failing to see your point with the above quoted mention.
Care to name one industrialized country that does not fit your above mention?

This is not a strictly US application.




seekerof



posted on Jul, 8 2005 @ 08:38 PM
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Originally posted by Seekerof

Originally posted by Jeremiah_John
As far as heavy government control of production, well that exists in the US in many ways. Look at governmental role in agriculture, aviation, auto industry, etc., etc.


I am seriously failing to see your point with the above quoted mention.
Care to name one industrialized country that does not fit your above mention?

This is not a strictly US application.




seekerof


Definitely not bound only to the US, but since the unity of state and corporations is a center element of facism, any government that employs this strategy is to some degree, facist.

Just because a state does this, though, doesn't mean it can be declared a facist state. That'd be like saying socialized medicine makes a country communist.



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