Stop blaming Al-Qaeda on the London Bombings!

People... Please....
while the preliminary indications are that it was a independant terrorist group, (claiming the label franchise of AQ). WE STILL DON"T KNOW FOR SURE.

anyone who does, is making leaps...
deny ignorance folks...

it doesn't mean point fingers at Bushco...
it means keep your minds and options open...
it may turn out that Net chicken is correct in the agenda that he is pushing... or it may be true that Eudomonia is correct...

or... (what a radical theory) it might have been a militant faction of the anti G8 group, since that was the primary thing that was disturbed...

to say: it was this or it was this, should still be prefaced by a "in My opinion" because that is what it is.... just an opinion...

and netchicken... you used to inspire me... now you just lost respect with me... you seem so ready to accept the government line so soon after, that even THEY DONT KNOW FOR SURE... and admit to that...
It doesn't ring with the "deny ignorance"...
if you were still unsure... that would be "denying ignorance"....

You can't even assume at this point in the game that it was a group of muslims that have adopted this AQ name.... nothing requires a "franchise" to take allah as its savior.... they might even be IRA roques that didn't want to draw attention to the former group, and adopted the "terrorist du juer" to kill two birds...

whatever the intention... it helped bushco greatly... and that is why people are still suspect...

We are all on the same side here... we all want the villians to get caught and punished...
we just disagree on who OUR OPINION of that is...
once the facts come out... I don't see that as a problem anymore...

Originally posted by uknumpty
In today's (London) Guardian, Robin Cook MP has a column in which he says:

Bin Laden was, though, a product of a monumental miscalculation by western security agencies. Throughout the 80s he was armed by the CIA and funded by the Saudis to wage jihad against the Russian occupation of Afghanistan. Al-Qaida, literally "the database", was originally the computer file of the thousands of mujahideen who were recruited and trained with help from the CIA to defeat the Russians. Inexplicably, and with disastrous consequences, it never appears to have occurred to Washington that once Russia was out of the way, Bin Laden's organisation would turn its attention to the west.

For the most part this is right but......
1. There was no al-Qaeda when the Afghans were fighting the Russians. Bin Ladens group was called the MAK (Maktab al-Khadamat).
2. Bin Laden recieved his help from Pakistan and Saudi Arabia, not from the CIA....directly. The US channeled it's support via Pakistan and from there it went to Bin Laden and crew.
Here's
more

"While the charges that the CIA was responsible for the rise of the Afghan Arabs might make good copy, they don't make good history. The truth is more complicated, tinged with varying shades of gray. The United States wanted to be able to deny that the CIA was funding the Afghan war, so its support was funneled through Pakistan's Inter Services Intelligence agency (ISI). ISI in turn made the decisions about which Afghan factions to arm and train, tending to favor the most Islamist and pro-Pakistan. The Afghan Arabs generally fought alongside those factions, which is how the charge arose that they were creatures of the CIA. Former CIA official Milt Bearden, who ran the Agency's Afghan operation in the late 1980s, says, "The CIA did not recruit Arabs," as there was no need to do so. There were hundreds of thousands of Afghans all too willing to fight, and the Arabs who did come for jihad were "very disruptive . . . the Afghans thought they were a pain in the ass." Similar sentiments from Afghans who appreciated the money that flowed from the Gulf but did not appreciate the Arabs' holier-than-thou attempts to convert them to their ultra-purist version of Islam. ... There was simply no point in the CIA and the Afghan Arabs being in contact with each other. ... the Afghan Arabs functioned independently and had their own sources of funding. The CIA did not need the Afghan Arabs, and the Afghan Arabs did not need the CIA. So the notion that the Agency funded and trained the Afghan Arabs is, at best, misleading. The 'let's blame everything bad that happens on the CIA' school of thought vastly overestimates the Agency's powers, both for good and ill." [Holy War, Inc.: Inside the Secret World of Osama bin Laden (New York: The Free Press, 2001), pp. 64-66.]

As the docu pointed out Al-Q may not be very organized (and alot of groups claiming to be Al-Q may not have been with them originally), but that doesn't mean it doesn't exsist. It certainly doesn't mean that there isn't a mindset in these extremist to carry out such attacks.

and netchicken... you used to inspire me... now you just lost respect with me... you seem so ready to accept the government line so soon after, that even THEY DONT KNOW FOR SURE... and admit to that...

What is the government line? You said yourself they admit they don't know yet....so how can they have a line?

Oh!
Saying extremist (which all the evidence so far points to and who do gain from this) and not the government (a highly unlikely scenario) did it must be accepting the government line.

whatever the intention... it helped bushco greatly...

Please expound.

I want to start of by sending my condolences to all the families of the victims and my prayers to all of the people who were injured in the terrible London terrorist bomb attacks.

However... What happened in London was only a fraction of what goes on in many other countries ten times a day.

Why the big hype? or is that just typical media sensationalism?
Why does the rest of the world not get the same attention and sympathy or are we just used to seeing children in other parts of the world getting blown apart by landmines and mortars?

Please do not think for a second that I'm implying that the horror and trauma is any less in London but there was barely a news channel not covering the London blasts when it happened whilst at that very same moment woman and children were also being killed every where esle by similar means with out the benefit of ambulance services and hospitals to help them.

Again, I'm not disrespecting what happened in London but take a second to think about others who constantly suffer these horrors on a daily basis.

the government line was simply an implication, THAT EVERYBODY IS PRESENTING AS FACT...
they aren't even saying for sure, but yet... so many here have assumed...


as tot he other question: how has this helped bushco?
well, he had the greatest opportunity to gather support for "His" war on terror during this G-8 meeting...
Now all the G8 have announced full support of the "war on terror" instead of being wishy washy and critical of the US policy.
so he seems to have been the beneficiary of the ill will that this attack caused...
backlash effect...

I am not saying that anybody cerrtain did this....
only that there are many suspects still... (not just the racist assumption of "muslims")

Originally posted by ThatsJustWeird

"While the charges that the CIA was responsible for the rise of the Afghan Arabs might make good copy, they don't make good history. The truth is more complicated, tinged with varying shades of gray. The United States wanted to be able to deny that the CIA was funding the Afghan war, so its support was funneled through Pakistan's Inter Services Intelligence agency (ISI). ISI in turn made the decisions about which Afghan factions to arm and train, tending to favor the most Islamist and pro-Pakistan. The Afghan Arabs generally fought alongside those factions, which is how the charge arose that they were creatures of the CIA. Former CIA official Milt Bearden, who ran the Agency's Afghan operation in the late 1980s, says, "The CIA did not recruit Arabs," as there was no need to do so. There were hundreds of thousands of Afghans all too willing to fight, and the Arabs who did come for jihad were "very disruptive . . . the Afghans thought they were a pain in the ass." Similar sentiments from Afghans who appreciated the money that flowed from the Gulf but did not appreciate the Arabs' holier-than-thou attempts to convert them to their ultra-purist version of Islam. ... There was simply no point in the CIA and the Afghan Arabs being in contact with each other. ... the Afghan Arabs functioned independently and had their own sources of funding. The CIA did not need the Afghan Arabs, and the Afghan Arabs did not need the CIA. So the notion that the Agency funded and trained the Afghan Arabs is, at best, misleading. The 'let's blame everything bad that happens on the CIA' school of thought vastly overestimates the Agency's powers, both for good and ill." [Holy War, Inc.: Inside the Secret World of Osama bin Laden (New York: The Free Press, 2001), pp. 64-66.]

thanks for that....

I think it's important to point out how the media is pushing this idea to the american public that the London Bombings is related to a terrorist organization called Al-Qaeda.

How is it blaming someone when just such a group CLAIMS responsibility?
Sure, you could point to some grand conspiracy of a false site, false group, etc. but even the media keeps repeating OVER AND OVER that this claim is still not confirmed.

Al-Qaeda does exist, and so does Bin Laden. However, they aren't the only terrorist organization in the world either. Also, any organization could call themselves "Al-Qaeda" and not necessarily even be linked to the actual group, just as every organization with "Jihad" in the name....isn't necessarily part of one entity.

Ok. I've had enough of this crap. I was listening to Talk Sport (Britain's most listened to radio station)as this happened and was alerted to the first attack that was described as a possible derailment or explosion on a London Underground train. Then the power grid suffered a total shutdown, which was undetermined at the immediate time but was attributed to and associated with the train. Then things went crazy and there was reports of more explosions from Edgware Road, Russell Square and so on.

Yes, obviously there was immediate speculation from the presenters of the show that this may be due to a terrorist act but during my viewing of Sky News at the same time, the Police were quick to quash this as a potential and that this was no more than speculation.

It was only when this latest incarnation of Al Quaeda took responsibility via the web-site that the media speculation was acknowledged by the Police. The real-time analysis soon after confirmed that the tone of the Arabic used on the site was consistent with previous sites of this ilk and that it was believed therefore that the claim was genuine.

I am appalled by the lack of tact and sheer ignorance being displayed by so many contributing to this thread.

Originally posted by TheShroudOfMemphis

Originally posted by UFObeliever
I find it tough to believe that the security cameras didn't get something suspicious on them. I am not going to make accusations as it just happened today and no ones really knows much about who did it.

I think the security camera question could become a backbone of the conspiracy side to this. It will be interesting to see what they reveal.

Obviously there were A LOT of security cameras operating in central London, it's known for that coverage.

Of course, if there's nothing to hide, security cameras shouldn't be repressed at all if there's something on them.

Truncated quote.

How many of you actually live and work in London, travel into and out of the Capital on a daily basis, conduct yourselves and your lives through and around the City. Very few if any. You have absolutely no scope or understanding of the volume of passengers that utilise our Public Transport system on an hourly basis or the literally millions of people that are travelling through our capital every day. If you truly believe that video surveillance is going to be able to identify a terrorist then you are an absolute fool.

Do they wear a special hat that proclaims 'Fundamentalist Psychotic Lunatic Here'? Of course not!!

So unless we assemble a team of say 10,000 Nerds who only specialise in video surveillance and devote perhaps the next three years to try to use Video Profiling to perhaps match a picture of a known terrorist to one of the 100's of millions of frames of video that would have been collected during the hours leading up to and perhaps even after the event, from every single one of the thousands of video cameras situated throughout the whole of the Greater London Metropolitan Region, and expect to POSITIVELY identify a perpetrator, then you seriously deserve to be a best selling fiction author.

This is a ridiculous notion but not quite as ridiculous a notion that my Government actually planned and then perpetrated this atrocity upon my fellow Citizens. Those of you who have suggested this know who you are and so do we.

You should be ashamed of yourself. I don't care if you want to blame Bush directly or the U.S. Federal Government for 9/11 (plenty of dodgy stuff but certainly no evidence, just conjecture leading to neat assumptions. Bit like the bible), but to suggest that my Government was behind this is insulting and outrageous.

There are fundamentalist extremists throughout the world and there are most likely 'Sleepers' in most large cities that these lunatics believe are worth targeting. They can call themselves whatever they want but it takes no more than 6-8 people perhaps backed by another 4-6 in another country to co-ordinate an attack like this. So who cares what they want to call themselves. I also saw the BBC documentary. What has not been pointed out is that although the scope of the movement represented may be exaggerated in terms of its sophistication, it takes no more than a few dozen committed psycho's with links to larger more organised well established terrorist groups, and suddenly you have a frightening new movement.

There is surely no doubt that there are a vocal minority in Western countries and of course many more in Middle Eastern countries that fervently desire us all to be subjected to Sharī'ah Law. Anyone that is not Moslem is an Infidel and can be exterminated with extreme prejudice as we don't actually exist in their interpretation of the Koran.

Basically, these lunatics want us all to live according to the principles laid down in the 14th Century and in fact their ultimate desire is to cause sufficient deterioration of Western Civilisation by whatever means to cause the destruction of our way of life. And this is supposed to make us into Moslems?

You ignoramuses on here who perpetrate the myth that our Governments will look to use its population as cannon-fodder in order to foster the 'notion' of terrorism and thereby use this as an excuse to wage War to underpin the Political/Industrial Complex (NWO lol) are paranoid to the point of being complete jokes.

But worse than that, by being so blind to the true nature of this evil and looking to blame the MAN you and others like you actually help to justify the existence of those terrorists that you so fervently deny the knowledge of. They say "I don't exist. Here's another car-bomb"; even worse: "Ha, Ha!!! Fools! They think their Government crashed a missile disguised as a holographic image into their World Trade Centre. Ok we can destroy anything we like, because we don't exist!!!"

What is the matter with you people? Do you not believe that if an advanced, reasonably liberal and civilised Nation that has a free press and access to whatever information its Citizens desires via Liberty, Freedom, Education, and even the Internet, subjected its citizens to the barbaric atrocities suggested here and they were found out, Anarchy would reign supreme. Politicians and the Security Forces would be attacked and murdered. Civil War would ensue. And for what?

Oil $$$!!! Bush and every member of his family, Rumsfeld, Rice and all the rest would be hunted. Every person they ever met would be a target.

Yes I agree that Bush and many of his cronies are morally corrupt but OUR governments do not murder us in order to wage war on another nation.

Yes, there have been conspiracies and there will continue to be. This isn't one of them.

If you read all of this, I congratulate you, but please take a moment to reflect upon the suffering perpetrated by Terrorists upon an innocent population in London yesterday and join with me in offering my condolences to the families of those that lost their lives and our thoughts and best wishes to the many hundreds seriously injured.

I wish them a speedy and successful recovery, although for many of them the mental scars will remain long after the physical ones have healed.

Peace Out

Sorry to have to post another item, but it just occurred to me, if it hasn't already been mentioned.

If Bush is really looking for an excuse to attack Iran, let's see how good his 'Machine' is at spinning this into Iranian based terrorists.

Mull on that whilst you digest all my other remarks.

Peace Out

I understand your feelings...
but as has been said...
some choose to honor the dead in other ways...
(by perhaps preventing other deaths due to assuming the wrong group did it, while the true villians set up for the next action)

One point to make here...
UK might be different, but the US has a confirmed and shameful history of doing just what you clam they wouldn't do...

namely... sacrifice the few for the many... or in other words... sacrifice a token group of victims to insure that worse tragedys don't happen.

In world war II for instance...
When the UK was begging for help from the US, the US gov didn't have the support of the public to go to war...
but pearl Harbor changed all that... didn't it?

So even though FDR is considered a scoundrel for allowing it to happen when he had pre knowledge of the attack... it is due to this scoundrels actions that you are not speaking german right now...

so realize that terrible things are done routinely for " the needs of the many override the needs of the few"

Originally posted by Netchicken
I deleted this thread initially and posted to the member the following.

In normal situations I wouldn't have even bothered with it, infact I may have read the links and participated. However in the current situation what is just debate becomes reality. I was sickened that they events are being twisted to meet an agenda.

Please keep your head cool. War makes victims.

Terrorism is not a person, place, thing or organization it is simply a political tactic. I'm not trying to make light of the attacks; my heart goes out to the victims and families affected. You cannot wage war against it, all of the cameras, security personnel, m-16's, did not and will not stop it. Violence begets violence, I have seen the enemy and he is us. It's so easy to just point a finger and just carpet bomb a country, a different strategy needs to be executed. The current strategy is apparently NOT working. God help us all, whomever you feel was responsible for the attack.

According to my experience coincidence generally is evidence. Is it coincidence that the blasts occurred the day after you Brits celebrated the olympic victory for London? Coincidence is evidence. I don't believe for a second that Al Quaida did the bombings. This was a professionally coordinated hit in sequence that only a trained TEAM could have performed. The Taliban have wet dreams of such, but of course those who have trained the Taliban will tell you that they could not pull off such an operation. The Taliban, or Al Quaida if you will, hasn't yet learned how to mingle with society proper let alone blend in to commit espionage, and the more subtle intricacies of drops and building networks.

Of course "Al Quaida" has claimed responsibility. I'm sure the perps would've promoted Elvis taking the responsibility if he too were focused on as a major terror ring. What is true is many people were killed by vicious sonsobitches that need to be slotted and quick.

Originally posted by IMMORTAL
The media corporations always say it is al qaeda and so do the world "leaders". What is al qaeda anyway? Where is it co-ordinated from? Have the world "leaders" answered this question? The easiest thing to do was to name already present words that the majority of the public is conditioned to--al qaeda, bin laden, islamic terrorism, etc. The only evidence they can come up with is some statement on a website?

Al-Qaeda is a Terrorist organisation unlike any other previously.There is no know structure that allows infultration.Al-qaeda really dosn`t excist it is more a ideal than a group.They believe that the Western leaders are evil and the west wants to rid the world of the Muslim faith as it stands in Afganistan.True not all Muslims believe this.The Taliban are an exremist group made up of very very very corrupt people.If you think Bush/Blair is corrupt you really should learn about the Taliban.NWO has nothing compared to these guys.

The group known as al qaeda may very well exist, but, in my opinion, it has done nothing of benefit for those of the islamic faith, or any islamic nation. It (al qaeda) seems to benefit the respective "victim", or the Country in which the tragedy occurs -- justification for retaliatory force (war), making laws in the Country which place more restrictions on its citizens, etc.

These guys hate the Muslims in the West almost as much as you and me.They believe they sold out and left there Faith behind.Al Qaeda recruits people who have come into there way of thinking that the West is bad but has the riches to make them succeed.

The way these major terror attacks are carried out only suggests that the people behind them are very professional. This London tragedy has occurred, like 9/11, in one of the most heavily monitored Countrys in the world, with world class security forces and intel agencies. The perpetrators of this particular tragedy have eluded detection. Wow, al qaeda can escape detection from Britains intel agecies?

It dosn`t take much to put a small bomb into an enclosed space.Al Qaeda camps have trained thousand in this kinda warfare.Our libaries,internet,mad groups in the States all help to supply info and supplies.It`s only a matter of time before America has an incident.Imagine how much damage three Terrorist on an New York sub way with automatic weapons could do before somebody reacted and stopped them.

The way I see it, the people like Bush or Blair have no idea what happens under their nose. These guys have bigger bosses. Notice how past US presidents have been assassinated? Some one else controls the show.

When was the last American president killed ????????????

What ever this terror thing is, as portrayed by the media and world "leaders", it extends its arm over some of the most industrialized and militarily protected Countries. I think this kind of stuff is going to happen again in the future, that's obvious. The only thing you can hope is that you are not going to be in the wrong place when these professional forces decide to strike again at the innocents of the most guarded nations in the world.

You cannot fight an unseen oponnent.You either have to infultrate the organisation or bring them too the open.Iraq was the deciding place.You have brought out the extremists invited them to the party.Over time they will run out of money,suicide bombers.Yes this means more of them will want to join,but better now than in time.Iraq is a win win area.You get rid of Saddam who was un controllable,you get the Oil,you get the military using weapons so your arms industry increases profit,you get to re build the country both in tems of political and structual and you rid the World of Muslim extremists.

I'd rather believe in a conspiracy than accept what the corporate media says is truth.

You`d better believe that Western govts are out to improve things.Its great how people in a free rich world are so out spoken and believe there govts are corrupt.People need to start understanding that things could be a lot worse.Maybe you need a Holiday in Iran,Zimbabwe etc etc.

[edit on 8-7-2005 by weirdo]

I'm thinking out loud now. The FL initiated HAMAS cells to attack London targets where HAMAS sleepers had already been stationed for some time, awaiting target discretion. You must ask the question, who is the most pissed off?

There was a time when war was less unfair because both sides had access to the same level of technology. In today's wars, the difference is so great that the people don't even realize that THEY are at war. Our goverments try by all means to erase evidence of war from the public consciousness. This strategy has been very successful: the people are 100% convinced that they have no power to stop the war, and 100% confused about the reasons of the war.

Originally posted by KhieuSamphan

Originally posted by jsobecky
So you're accusing Bush of pulling the London bombings off? Here's your least favorite two words, ECK:
PROVE IT.

Prove that he didnt.

Ring a ring a roses...

I have it on good authority that he didn`t leave Gleneagles that day.But that could be a media trick to keep us controlled.Maybe Gleneagles is on Mars and the real leaders have been destroyed.The guys we see on the tv are really Reptillians.OMG l think i`ve found the truth that this is the third dimension.Only way out is to kill myself so they can`t destroy my mind anymore.

No think l`ll have kick back and get drunk instead.You never no the Reptillian Females may prefer a bit of Human meat to suck on.
Only hope they suck not blow

i have read some of this (the first page), and i have to say it is pretty sad.
i have been involved in terrorist events before, i know what it feels like, its scary but liberating at the same time. People find that they have better things to do than complain about threads, and their agenda.

There is no need to censor threads, if people believe that it wasnt al-qaeuda that wont upset anyone, they dont have to wait to later to say it.

The only hatred around is coming out of these people who think they have to act as self censors in the name of some greater good and start insulting people who dont agree with what comes on tv.

If you cant put forward you view on a conspiracy wesbite, where can you. People are allowed to say what they think, just beacuse they dont have a televison network does not mean they should be censored.

Weirdo, I'm sorry but you have brightened up my day, I'm glad some people here (and I know there's more) can get some real perspective on things, this is not the time for ridiculous theories but a time when we must unite together and fight this common evil between us.

[edit on 8-7-2005 by AgentSmith]

You have voted hardbodyactiv for the Way Above Top Secret award. You have two more votes this month.

Excellent post hardbodyactiv!

Originally posted by aape
Have to say i have always suspected that wtc was a inside job, moscow bombings were copycat inside job to get the war to tsetsenia. etc
Bought the whole package and now this. London.
Can´t blame the timing thought..for western war alliance.
Why would this happen just when there were talkings about uk pulling it troops off from iraq.
Well..they blame al qaida and now usa has put every kind code oranges what ever to alert, and italy&denmark must be shuddering.
If now the war is going larger on middle east, i must say it will be like bad comedy.
Not made my mind about this event yet. Yup they are terrorist or anyway the same men who have planned all these events.
But to who they will work for, that´s the cookie yet to be solved. Is it the all mysterious osama, or is osama on the same payroll as bush&co.
Just hoping that i´m wrong, and the same hysterical patriotic bull# "Let´s roll and blast the whole middle-east" doesn´t come back twice as hard.

I just fear that all these people are muppets who are working for the same boss. And boss wants the power, power is money, money is oil and how he is gonna get it?
He put´s islamic terrorist to attack states, and then draw the rest of the globe with the same act. I hope i´m wrong.
Is this never gonna end?
-aape

Its gonna end with a bomb