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Humanists seek platform to halt religious advance

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posted on Jul, 6 2005 @ 03:33 PM
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Thanks Odium for the clarification on euthanasia legality in the UK.


It agree that it should be made legal for the brain damaged.




posted on Jul, 6 2005 @ 03:36 PM
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One of the reasons like the American constitution being based around Christianity is because the mojority of government officials believed in the Bible and built it morals round that because man had no other wisdom to match its standards and it deals with historical facts, guidence, explantion of whey we are here and it matches our inner feeling of a God, also known as the holy spirit. People chose as a mojority rule but today its becoming more split in two. That's no problem they can take all religion out of the west's constition including Europe which they have (now its calapsed) and just have the believers believe as they do, do'nt need the government to tell us what to believe anyway. But when one is imposing ones ideologies on what started as a majority rule and say, stop all the foundations of belief is false and iradicate it, it becomes almost a dictation of it self. Almost saying that your history of what the nations were built count for nothing.
It wo'nt go down a down easyly. People will have to choose or opose it as a majority not by an organisation that wants to dictate its rule to all the world. Christianity never started a government it started as faith for where the leaders accepted the litral words of God. Many people have said the Bible has opened up an understanding on a spiritual level and the Bible goes into that because people felt it then too as people do today. Its not just coincidence it can change you and this unites to believers that way as much as anything. Its called the holy spirit.

Ok fine we will have mans rule on man kind lets start from scatch no God its a lie its irrational. But how far will this rule go into setting its own ideology, its worrying because it will open the door to anything and as we as man know it it will lead to self destruction. A religion is a unity of unforced beliefs, yes we do get middle east religions that force their powers rather than go by true faith of choice. Being forced into anything is no faith and faith is not based on being forced. Christianity is free it does not in prison you, if you want to leave fine no problem. A religion is coninuity it holds a reference of ancient humanity and timeless moral values, man will always change his values and remain inconsistant and hypocritical. Take God out and we are in real trouble its getting worse the more people disbelieve.

We do not need a governemnt based on religion but occationally its the religion that holds it together. Another thing is its the fact religion is becoming politically incorrect and in cases laws have been made to go against it, making putting crosses in classrooms and saying prayers in school illegal.
I reckon all religion in the west will be a thing of the past and will linger only in one more generation and that could be the last anyway. I want people to choose not to believe and have a choice its democracy but do'nt force it, let the people decide.


[edit on 6-7-2005 by The time lord]

[edit on 6-7-2005 by The time lord]



posted on Jul, 6 2005 @ 04:11 PM
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You're quite right TTL.


The government of the United States was founded on the spiritual values of the Christian philosophy. When people have no moral base in their lives, be it Christian or non-Christian, civilization degenerates down into the chaos of anarachy. A really good example of this is the events which led up to the downfall of the Roman empire.

[edit on 6-7-2005 by Paul_Richard]



posted on Jul, 6 2005 @ 05:06 PM
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Originally posted by The time lord
Ok fine we will have mans rule on man kind lets start from scatch no God its a lie its irrational. But how far will this rule go into setting its own ideology, its worrying because it will open the door to anything and as we as man know it it will lead to self destruction.
Christianity is free it does not in prison you


Being free of religion will not lead to destruction. European and Islam history shows it is countries led by religious fanatics that cause destruction. And I consider all belivers as fanatics. They are.

Christians are notfree and people living in such countries is not free, even when they are considered democratic. The christians rule everything from birth to the graveyards. People practicing other religions in Europe must have permission from a christian organisation in order to bury their dead the way their traditions tell them to. Sometimes they are denyed this. 'Free' my foot!



posted on Jul, 6 2005 @ 05:31 PM
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Sounds like some interesting rites for burying the dead.

Indeed, being free of religion will not lead to destruction, but being free of the moral base that religion provides does and is leading to destruction


Despite its failings, without religion, most people cannot lead decent lives. The government cannot control or protect the majority of the population unless that population is generally law-abiding.

Now I'm not referring to fundamentalist religion, as with fundamentalist Muslims or Christians. I'm referring to all the world's traditional religions. Without them, most people have no desire to live moral lives.

Here's another way to look at it...

Without religion, what motivates people to strive to live by The Golden Rule?

The Golden Rule is found in all the world's major religions and most of the minor ones.

There are many ATS members -- indicative of a large and growing segment of the general population -- who consider The Golden Rule to be meaningless, dogmatic nonsense.


Without a spiritual foundation, despite fundamentalist abuse, civilization spirals down into oblivion. The karmic consequence of a godless and amoral society


[edit on 6-7-2005 by Paul_Richard]



posted on Jul, 6 2005 @ 05:37 PM
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Originally posted by Paul_Richard
You're quite right TTL.


The government of the United States was founded on the spiritual values of the Christian philosophy. When people have no moral base in their lives, be it Christian or non-Christian, civilization degenerates down into the chaos of anarachy. A really good example of this is the events which led up to the downfall of the Roman empire.

[edit on 6-7-2005 by Paul_Richard]


um, the Roman Empire fell shortly after it accepted Christianity as it's official religion.

Show me a civilization thatactually degenerated into chaos and anarchy from a lack of an institutionalized religion?



posted on Jul, 6 2005 @ 05:45 PM
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Originally posted by Ghaele
People practicing other religions in Europe must have permission from a christian organisation in order to bury their dead the way their traditions tell them to. Sometimes they are denyed this. 'Free' my foot!


Sir/ Madam you are misinformed or making sweeping generalisations. Which 'European ' countries are these?



posted on Jul, 6 2005 @ 05:46 PM
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WolfofWar,

Christianity wasn't at fault; it was the corruption of the Roman government that caused its downfall.

Christianity, in spiritual ideals at least, was superior to the other religions of its day. For example, you didn't have early Christians doing animal (or virgin) sacrifices. Which is why it eventually became the dominant religion.

If the Roman government embraced the ethics of Christianity, which of course they didn't, they may have survived. It is the application of spiritual principle, not the theology, which matters. Words on a page or scroll don't save and nurture a thriving society; it is the people who strive to live by spiritual principle who do so.


[edit on 6-7-2005 by Paul_Richard]



posted on Jul, 6 2005 @ 09:33 PM
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No one should have to pass through starvation, which is how she died. If the decision was made for euthanasia, then Terri Schavio should have been given the proper medication for a relatively painless transition.


Sorry to beat a dead horse (or woman, rather), but the autopsy revealed that she was indeed brain-dead, meaning pain was a non-issue.



The government of the United States was founded on the spiritual values of the Christian philosophy.


I kind of see where you are coming from, but I also disagree. Ben Franklin, Thomas Jefferson, John Adams, James Monroe, and Thomas Payne all wrote of their dislike for Christianity. However, the majority of the founding fathers were Christian (in some form) and all of them wrote of some type of "creator".

As for values, these early Americans had just escaped the religious governance of europe, and it is estimated that only 7% of the 13 colonies citizens belonged to a church.

Drogo

I like your points above. The relationship between science and faith is like the relationship between water and air in a bottle- one will fill the space where the other lacks.



posted on Jul, 6 2005 @ 11:02 PM
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Originally posted by Paul_Richard
WolfofWar,

Christianity wasn't at fault; it was the corruption of the Roman government that caused its downfall.

Christianity, in spiritual ideals at least, was superior to the other religions of its day. For example, you didn't have early Christians doing animal (or virgin) sacrifices. Which is why it eventually became the dominant religion.

If the Roman government embraced the ethics of Christianity, which of course they didn't, they may have survived. It is the application of spiritual principle, not the theology, which matters. Words on a page or scroll don't save and nurture a thriving society; it is the people who strive to live by spiritual principle who do so.


[edit on 6-7-2005 by Paul_Richard]


I never claimed Christianity was the fault for the fall of the Roman Empire. But to claim that the Roman Empire fell because they didnt embrace the spiritual principle of christianity holds no merit. The Roman Empire had a set of beliefs before hand, in terms of Roman Mythology. These beliefs grew with the various cults that were within the Roman empire (one of which was christianity) The Emperors would get to vote on which gods they would allow into the collective Roman religion, aswell as the beliefs. One of the major reasons for the fall of the western Roman Empire were war and outward expansion. Spread to thin, the Western Roman Empire simply disintergrated, while the Eastern Roman Empire (later the Byzantine Empire) was more clustered and stay closer together. Infact, many historians now do not even believe the Roman Empire itself collapsed, and instead, see it as a slowly transformation. The Empire later blended itself into Medieval culture, making no definite line of where the empire could have collapsed!



posted on Jul, 7 2005 @ 06:57 AM
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Originally posted by Ray Davies


No one should have to pass through starvation, which is how she died. If the decision was made for euthanasia, then Terri Schavio should have been given the proper medication for a relatively painless transition.


Sorry to beat a dead horse (or woman, rather), but the autopsy revealed that she was indeed brain-dead, meaning pain was a non-issue.


Testimony from family members -- specifically her parents -- attest to the contrary. Furthermore, the priest that was in attendance as she was dying also said that she showed signs of suffering. It was not a painless death for Terry Schiavo.

Note also that photographs and video recordings of Terry Schiavo during her last days were forbidden. Why do you think that is? Take a good guess.


If she had transitioned peacefully and painlessly, then there would have been no need to prevent photographs and video recordings to prove that very point




The government of the United States was founded on the spiritual values of the Christian philosophy.



Originally posted by Ray Davies
I kind of see where you are coming from, but I also disagree. Ben Franklin, Thomas Jefferson, John Adams, James Monroe, and Thomas Payne all wrote of their dislike for Christianity. However, the majority of the founding fathers were Christian (in some form) and all of them wrote of some type of "creator".


Many of the founding fathers were deists who felt that the moral foundation of Christianity was necessary to insure a just society. They didn't agree with all the facets of Christian theology but they nonetheless believed in spiritual principle being very important.


Originally posted by Ray Davies
As for values, these early Americans had just escaped the religious governance of europe, and it is estimated that only 7% of the 13 colonies citizens belonged to a church.


Regardless, the leaders who wrote or influenced the writing of the Declaration of Independence and the US Constitution promoted a Christian moral foundation.

The United States has greatly changed since those days. It is shifting to a humanistic, scientifically based society.





[edit on 7-7-2005 by Paul_Richard]



posted on Jul, 7 2005 @ 07:20 AM
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Originally posted by WolfofWar

Originally posted by Paul_Richard
WolfofWar,

Christianity wasn't at fault; it was the corruption of the Roman government that caused its downfall.

Christianity, in spiritual ideals at least, was superior to the other religions of its day. For example, you didn't have early Christians doing animal (or virgin) sacrifices. Which is why it eventually became the dominant religion.

If the Roman government embraced the ethics of Christianity, which of course they didn't, they may have survived. It is the application of spiritual principle, not the theology, which matters. Words on a page or scroll don't save and nurture a thriving society; it is the people who strive to live by spiritual principle who do so.


[edit on 6-7-2005 by Paul_Richard]


I never claimed Christianity was the fault for the fall of the Roman Empire.


No, but you implied that there was a connection.


Originally posted by WolfofWar
But to claim that the Roman Empire fell because they didnt embrace the spiritual principle of christianity holds no merit. The Roman Empire had a set of beliefs before hand, in terms of Roman Mythology. These beliefs grew with the various cults that were within the Roman empire (one of which was christianity) The Emperors would get to vote on which gods they would allow into the collective Roman religion, aswell as the beliefs. One of the major reasons for the fall of the western Roman Empire were war and outward expansion. Spread to thin, the Western Roman Empire simply disintergrated, while the Eastern Roman Empire (later the Byzantine Empire) was more clustered and stay closer together. Infact, many historians now do not even believe the Roman Empire itself collapsed, and instead, see it as a slowly transformation. The Empire later blended itself into Medieval culture, making no definite line of where the empire could have collapsed!


Essentially, the Roman empire fell due to internal corruption. Corruption is the result of moral decay. Moral decay is the result of not adhering to spiritual principle. The ethics of the pagan religions at that time were not as ethical as those found in Christianity. It is the lack of application of spiritual principle, not the particular theology or religion itself, which causes any civilization to end. The Roman emperor could have made Buddhism the official religion; it would have made no difference as the corruption was rampant


It is true that the out of the ashes of the Roman empire came the Byzantine empire, which is often overlooked or at least understated in most history books. But the base of operations was no longer in Italy at all, but in Constantinople. The glory of Rome was over.

There are certain telltale signs that a civilization is in a state of decline, all of which occurred in ancient Rome and are again happening today. Here are some of them:

1. An open acceptance of homosexuality in society. This greatly weakens and even ends the nuclear family, causing sociological, interpersonal, and governmental instability.

2. Overtaxation.

3. Wide scale governmental corruption.

4. A general weakening of the military.

Before its final fall, Rome relied extensively on mercenaries from outside to protect them. Mercenaries (foreigners) who were indifferent to the empire and who just wanted to get paid.

Additionally, this also refers to an inability of a government to protect the borders of the nation adequately. Sound familiar?

5. A general widening of the gap between the rich and the poor.

You had the citizens of Rome living in luxury while the surrounding countryside were in poverty, most of which faced destitution daily.

A lack of ethical religion is like the police and rescue squad showing up at your doorstep. They are not the problem but they signal that there is a problem afoot. Without ethical religion that is followed by the general public, society denegrates into barbarism, which is precisely what happened in ancient Rome.

[edit on 7-7-2005 by Paul_Richard]



posted on Jul, 7 2005 @ 07:43 AM
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Maybe the curuption of the ROMAN empire deflated as people became good and decided not to pursue an empire that treated people like animals.
The Romans become good and dispursed the barbaric attitudes to life and there forcefull ways became shameful in the eyes of wisdom and morality.

Secondly I heared its because they adopted other nationals in the army and multiple cultural societies weakened the emipre as it was no longer a firm united group but fragmented in all areas of life. A bit like the UK and the multicultral societies that creates tention and hate amongst minor groups. I see it with my own eyes its not politically incorrect but an eqation that represents the issues of tribe against tribe and territory demonation.
If the world can not get along when nations are seperate by miles of sea, how do you expect 100 nationals to react in 1 square mile of land? I just need to read my local paper. But a 100 nationals with the same moral beliefs can make a difference it goes deeper than race and colour.



posted on Jul, 8 2005 @ 02:02 AM
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.
People have suffered under deified rulers throughout history.

Dictators of Rome, got their foothold by claiming to be Gods.

Many bible clutching Christian monarchs [ and their supporting clergy] have tyrranized people in Europe thoughout the Dark & Middle ages, providing little if any benefit to the general population.

Modern Day Iran, and Saudi Arabia suffer under leaderships that claim a connection with God or religion.

Only after the revolution of ideas that included the emancipation of individuals that became widespread in Western Europe in the 16 & 17 hundreds with philosopers such as Voltaire, DesCartes [Im sure i am leaving many out from around the world] did individual people start to think they had a right to stand up and live their own lives. To no longer be vassals to a King, Or owe fealty to someone else's religion.

Religious advance is an Oxymoron for most religions. Zen Budhism might be one of a few exceptions.

Secular Humanism is what has legitimized individuals to live their own lives, express their own opinions, and worship or not as they so choose.

Christianity never halted Slavery, The bible in fact supports it. Saudi Arabia still had slavery until the 1950s.

Secular Humanism is what has helped push slavery into being an unacceptable institution.

Secular Humanism is a big tent idea. Starting with white males, then including black males, and then Women. It is a living evolving thing.

Secular Humanism by its very nature is the recognition of one human being by another, without excluding them because of different religious categories.

Secular Humanism is a uniter of people, Religion in general tends to be a divider.

I don't want to see Secular Humanism be too heavy handed about things, But religious lead governments are invariably regressive and not progressive.

If you want the best ethics and morality, take selectively those best ideas from religion and discard those ideas that were a product of the barbarian times from which they sprang, and add to them the inspired visions of caring and deeply thinking individuals.

Don't categorically reject religion, but do allow inspired vision to be your compass and guide into the future.

Our roots are in the past, our minds are in the future.
.



posted on Jul, 8 2005 @ 02:48 AM
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Originally posted by Paul_Richard
As you probably already know, I am not a Christian. But I perceive that the fear of a Christian theocracy forming in the US is unfounded.


Is it? Then I'd hope you'd disagree with the unfounded assertions of this post as well...


Originally posted by The time lord
What do you think? With all this political correctness coming to power are we getting prepared for abolished religious rights or watering down of all religion.


Ah, but I see you do not.


Originally posted by Paul_Richard
The conflict, as I see it, is a struggle between those who have spiritual values and those who think that having them are nonsense. One does not have to embrace the idea that Jesus is God in order to have spiritual values, but the need to have them is very important -- especially in government.


Metaphysical values are more important than human ones when it comes to government? Yes, that is what you said. And you do see a conflict, it's just you frame the authoritarian theocrats as the "good guys" not the conspirators.

[edit on 8-7-2005 by RANT]



posted on Jul, 8 2005 @ 11:04 AM
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Originally posted by RANT

Originally posted by Paul_Richard
As you probably already know, I am not a Christian. But I perceive that the fear of a Christian theocracy forming in the US is unfounded.


Is it? Then I'd hope you'd disagree with the unfounded assertions of this post as well...


Originally posted by The time lord
What do you think? With all this political correctness coming to power are we getting prepared for abolished religious rights or watering down of all religion.


Ah, but I see you do not.


Originally posted by Paul_Richard
The conflict, as I see it, is a struggle between those who have spiritual values and those who think that having them are nonsense. One does not have to embrace the idea that Jesus is God in order to have spiritual values, but the need to have them is very important -- especially in government.


Metaphysical values are more important than human ones when it comes to government? Yes, that is what you said. And you do see a conflict, it's just you frame the authoritarian theocrats as the "good guys" not the conspirators.



Clarification: Spiritual values are more important than human ones. Why? Because we consist of spiritual consciousness experiencing a human existence, not human bodies experiencing a spiritual existence


Without acknowledging and utilizing a higher power of some kind in decision-making: leaders have much less resolve, much less emotional strength, and much less character.

Who are these authoritarian theocrats that you fear so much?

Do you consider George W. Bush to be an authoritarian theocrat?

How would you like him to base his decisions?

On the principles of secular humanism?

Name me one leader in history that was a secular humanist and who contributed anything substantial to civilization. A US president would be nice if you can find one. Then show me how the tenets of secular humanism were applied in his/her instance.

Hey...I'd sincerely like to know!




posted on Jul, 8 2005 @ 11:08 AM
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Last I checked John Adams made sure he kept Religion out of Politics.



posted on Jul, 8 2005 @ 11:23 AM
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Originally posted by Odium
Last I checked John Adams made sure he kept Religion out of Politics.


I see no evidence that John Adams didn't call upon a higher power in his decision-making.

In fact, President Adams was a Unitarian -- a far cry from a secular humanist.


Would you like to try that again?




posted on Jul, 8 2005 @ 02:24 PM
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One of the reasons why the Bible supported slavery is because the old testiment was just based on the Jews as they were the pure bloodline of Adam so that one day a King named Jesus would be born to save the world. The life style was different they never had the infrastructure of today and it was a way of living, they respected the people and slaves and it provided security and guidence to the communties and a way of getting money. It was better than being sold to savage tribes who were lost in the wilderness. It was the right thing at the time.

If people used the Bible as an excuse for slavery then they never understood the Bible, the old testiment is for the Jews, the new Testiment was for man kind who are less invoved with the blood line of Adam, who in turn died for our sins as a sacrifice to end all ritual sacrifices.
Dying on a wooden cross was also a symbol of the first sin from the forbidden fruit from the tree. Some people say he was crucified on a tree rather than a cut cross or a tree with a nailed piece of wood across it.

If we abolish religion then we should abolish belief in UfOlogy and all occult practices. But its turned for the worst, satanists have rights too now, an athiest can say so what? It depends what they get up to. Would you like your government politicians having satanist ties?
If we get rid of the major religions then all spiritual values should go too including pychics and healers.

But where would we be? Who's ideology, philosophy shall we have? Take credit from Christianity and leave the author out. People will still be seaching for God like it not and having a common God will stop all the confusion. Science could give explantions but it wo'nt explain morals. Philosophy is so vague, one thing can mean six different things an this coming from every philosopher, where's the consistancy there. Its a difficult issue to discuss and people are always divided. Maybe its genetics some people feel a connection to God some can not, some gain it through faith and feel what one can not put words to. The spawn of all religion outside Christianity came from Babylon/Iraq as descibed in the Genesis because the knowledge of God became currupted after man tryed to get to heaven. They produced a building that could have possibly openned the door to angels that once currpted man kind as in Genesis 6. So the spreading of man across the world and spreading across the land created religions into one selfs image and spiritual knowledge of angels and God. So other faiths across the world built their origins around. At least it gives an explanation why religion is split and where pagans come from.
There is the other argument that Christianity came from Egypt mythology but before Egypt was Babylon that is why we have the Pyramids and ziggarats and similar buildings across south america, asia and China and middle east. That is where all religion started in Babylon. But no one really cares about this so people take these mystey religions origins rather than the explanation in the Bible. In the end its still up to the individual to decide what they find as true.


[edit on 8-7-2005 by The time lord]



posted on Jul, 8 2005 @ 03:05 PM
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Yes, well done. He was religious, but he made sure to keep it out of his views. He even did a speech in October of 1798 where he addressed the fact people do not have to be religious to be moral.

You can hold a faith and be able to keep it out of your work, it's rather easy.



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