I've changed my opinion regarding the War in Iraq

Originally posted by Mike at ATS

You're ignoring the first rule for being taken seriously by grown-ups,
....

OMG "Mike at ATS" is a grown up. Like WOW. That was a real bombshell. I totally didn't see that coming. Who refers to adults as grown-ups. Maybe you should keep that imaginary green circle to yourself.

The only reason Bush is in power is that he takes action, doesn't stray from his word and has a high level of integrity as opposed to the other presidents.

Some good thoughts here but...........

we (and I mean the US) has problems.........................

Study the history of the Roman empire and you will see..............for 500 years Rome was the World's only superpower in its day.......but it spent the last 100 years policing the World on its own...........over time it spread itself too thin..................and then fell to the barbrians...............terrorist of their day..............

So after 200 years the US is finding itself in many challenging positions.......

Some examples.........

the middle East............we support Isreal and are opposed so by nearly every Arab country as a result..........

Iran...........we are dealing with them coming to nuclear weapons capacity......evidence shows Russia and China black market selling them tools and weapons to obtain this.........

Saudia, Afganistan, Syria, Jordon, Lybria............you name it we have issues with everyone there.........from terrorism to our middle east policy


N Korea...........you name it Kim will do it.............wants to build the nuclear weapons and if intimidated by the US will see them to terrorist to bomb our cities........

Pakistan.........friend or foe?..............hard to tell.........wants to blow up India...........while India wants to blow up Parkistan......

India.......friend or foe?............looking to alliance with China could present a real problem there.......

China...........they are eating our lunch baby...........in the name of free trade and emerging markets to a stock market thristy US corporate world. We are giving away the ghost by compromising our national security while trying to get a foothold in a country of 1.6 billion people growing at a GNP of 9% a year............once they are ready China will point a gun at us and say jump......

Taiwan............(see China above)

India again...........(see China above)

Russia...............losing its interest in democracy as its economy suffers.............can't be trusted in the black market of holding their commitment in stopping arms proliferation.....

Folks........to much going on that can escalate into a World War and we are trying (along with Britian) to try to hold all the seams in place on a bag designed to hold 20 pounds of crap that is stuffed with 30 pounds of crap...

.....and we keep losing support of allies over time the more we try to keep this stuff in line..................

Pretty soon its going to be us (and tony blair) against the rest of the world............and that's just pointing guns at each other..........i'm not even talking about developing countries and their drive for natural resources and the result of those shortages............

We have too many people on this planet and too many people in power determined to take their share because of it...........



How can we police the World at this rate?

Can you say Rome in the last 100 years??

Don't believe that Russia's economy is going down Propaganda, Rus's economy is going up up and away, plus no BODY HAS EVER GIVEN PROOF THAT RUSSIA IS SELLING nUKE WEAPONS TO iRAN, nUKE TECH TO START NUKE ENERGY NOW THAT rUSSIA IS SELLING nUKE WEAPONS rUS IS NOT SELLING, sorry about the caps I wasn't watching what i was typing I was just watching the key board.

Originally posted by AdamJ
i dont think he had a jew killing fetish like Hitler, so no they are not the same either imo

I think his chief participation in violent campaigns against the Kurds in the north during the Iran-Iraq War, and against the Shiites in the south in 1991 and 1999 to put down revolts makes him an eligible candidate to be comparable to Hitler.



On another note,
I guess many conspiracy theorists find it hard to believe that truths are actually simpler than they are perceived to be.




[edit on 5-7-2005 by Mike at ATS]

Originally posted by Mike at ATS

Originally posted by AdamJ
i dont think he had a jew killing fetish like Hitler, so no they are not the same either imo

I think his chief participation in violent campaigns against the Kurds in the north during the Iran-Iraq War, and against the Shiites in the south in 1991 and 1999 to put down revolts makes him an eligible candidate to be comparable to Hitler.

[edit on 5-7-2005 by Mike at ATS]

yep, but for me those are different things from racial extermination and i dont think they compare.
You see, even today in Iraq, America is doing its best to put down 'insurgents,' ie uprisers, rebels whatever you want to call them.
The government in control will usually fight back against violent uprising.

Im not an expert in the middle east by any means, partly because it is very difficult to get unbiased information because of the media blackout of anything pro sadam and relentless anti sadam propaganda in US+UK.
here is an example of what i mean;

Link here



look at the age range they have put it under. I have a copy of this book, it really is not for ages 9-12

I know that Iraq is tribal and there are longstanding differences between the different groups, which i am far from ever understanding.
At the end of the day every case is different and i dont think you can get a serious accurate unbiased view of what is going on by listening to the media.

I have read that book, by an american who lived in Iraq fro a large portion of her life and it paints a very different picture of society and life there than you might think.

[edit on 5-7-2005 by AdamJ]


Edit: fixed link length

[edit on 5-7-2005 by ZeddicusZulZorander]

WHY DONT WE A-BOMB THE PLACE WE DIDNT CARE FOR PEOPLES LIVES AT HIROSHIMA AND NAGASAKI... OR HAVE WE BECOME TO POLITICALY CORRECT

[edit on 5-7-2005 by ArtemisFowl]

Originally posted by Mike at ATS

On another note,
I guess many conspiracy theorists find it hard to believe that truths are actually simpler than they are perceived to be.

[edit on 5-7-2005 by Mike at ATS]

lol well if only that were true, life would be so easy. i fear not though.
the lies you get for free, the truth you have to work damned hard for.

The true objective of the neo-cons in Iraq was/is to make chaos. It is much easier to plunder a country's wealth when there is no infrastructure in place.

Question: How do you make 100,000 future terrorists?

Answer: Invade Iraq.

Ever notice that Saddam never wore religious robes and funny hats? He was always in his freshly pressed military uniform. This is because he was not a religious fundamentalist. Yes, he was obviously a deranged psycho murderer, but what about Charles Taylor of Liberia? Mugabe? The Uzbeki regime? Kim Jong-Il? These monsters are all guilty of evil deeds like Saddam.

Iraq was on the neo-con radar years before 9/11.

Apparently the only link you need between 9/11 and Iraq is skin color.

Originally posted by ArtemisFowl
WHY DONT WE A-BOMB THE PLACE WE DIDNT CARE FOR PEOPLES LIVES AT HIROSHIMA AND NAGASAKI... OR HAVE WE BECOME TO POLITICALY CORRECT

[edit on 5-7-2005 by ArtemisFowl]

There is one, nonnuclear bomb that is 4 times as powerful as Hiroshima. I found myself wondering aloud why we didn't we use that before commiting +200k troops to Iraq.

"We shoulda just gotten close and superbombed the bastards." I said in one of my classes showing Iraqi footage of US soldiers,

Some folks overheard me an a debate broke out.

"B,b,b Mike, we can't! What about the civilians, the children who would be killed?"

Now here is the thng. I understood what they were saying. I can see their side. What I had said really did not sound like ME. The things I'm about to say, sound odd coming from my mouth. I mean I'm not above criticizing the President, and I sure did not vote for him. I choose not to have a flag on my car, and I don't pin it on my clothes. I'm really not that patriotic.

But you know what? I don't think I give a crap anymore. This is the only language these fundementalist terrorists understand, BRUTE FORCE & AN IRON FIST. Which means bombing the crap out of them and making a few countries into parking lots for Arab-Disney.

I just don't care about Iraqi civilians. I've weighed the scales and I'm tired of fighting with one hand behind our back. You know what I want? Justice and swift victory!

I have no problem taking a few million barrels of oil, gold, weapons whatever to help pay for ths war. 10% should go to the family of every soldier who dies.

The UN can kiss my proud American backside if it doesn't like it. Diplomacy is over, PC is done. Debate has run it's course. A small dark part of me is ready for some more "Shock and AWE". I plan to put a steak on the grill, pop open a cold one, and enjoy the fireworks for the next one (i.e. Iran)

This isn't ME, or at least it didn't used to be.

Give war a chance

All life is precious. I still believe that. Most of the people in the countries I've circled have good qualities. I know that.

But sha-know what? SCREW them anyway.
You're asking a lot if you want me to spend an American life to protect a foreign one.

You're asking too much.

[edit on 7/5/2005 by Mike at ATS]

Originally posted by Ray Davies
Iraq was on the neo-con radar years before 9/11.

Well, probably for a little known thing called "the attack and invasion of Kuwait."

You probably never heard of it. That is where Saddam ordered the invasion, looting (pillaging and raping) of the country of Kuwait. The US pushed him out and then made him surrender on the condition that he submit to UN weapon inspections to stop that behavior from happening again.

He submitted, oh when was that? About....oh yeah....never. So I suppose that is why he was attacked by the US who was still legally able to do so under the terms of the prior war 10 years earlier.

Originally posted by Ray DaviesApparently the only link you need between 9/11 and Iraq is skin color.

OR the fact that you are talking apples and oranges and yet trying to link the two. Hmmm, is it only the "neo-cons" that attempt a spin?

Originally posted by futuretense
Study the history of the Roman empire and you will see..............for 500 years Rome was the World's only superpower in its day.......

maybe u need to study more since u forgot China during Rome's time. also the Roman pale's in comparison to America since its limited to Europe, North Africa and the Middle East where America's power is all over the world. cant compare the two powers.

"Mike at ATS"

Unfortunately I don't see much sincerity in yourt contributions, at all.

Hello and goodbye.

Originally posted by MaskedAvatar
"Mike at ATS"

Unfortunately I don't see much sincerity in yourt contributions, at all.

Hello and goodbye.

Oh, do you have the authority to ban me? If so, bye.

[edit on 7/5/2005 by Mike at ATS]

Originally posted by deltaboy

Originally posted by futuretense
Study the history of the Roman empire and you will see..............for 500 years Rome was the World's only superpower in its day.......

maybe u need to study more since u forgot China during Rome's time.

also the Roman pale's in comparison to America since its limited to Europe, North Africa and the Middle East where America's power is all over the world. cant compare the two powers.

Correct me if I'm wrong deltaboy. I thought China during the Roman empire was a collection of warring feudal states. Maybe you need to study a little more also.

I also don't think spreading democracy to Iraq is worth even one of our precious kids in the military.

If the Iraq people wanted democracy why didn't they create a revolution like we did to the British. Or the Russians to the Czars etc. etc.

"Well, probably for a little known thing called "the attack and invasion of Kuwait."

You mean the attack that we sanctioned? On July 25, 1990 Saddam had a meeting with US Ambassador April Glaspie, where she stated: "We have no opinion. Secretary [of State James] Baker has directed me to emphasize the instruction that Kuwait is not associated with America."

The original argument between Kuwait and Saddam arose from money being borrowed to fight Iran. The argument escalated, and Saddam ordered in his army to loot, rape, pillage etc. Typical middle-eastern tribal #e.

So we train, supply, and fund him. Tell him we have no interest in Kuwait. He invades Kuwait and we boot him out. Why didn't we finish the job?

We didn't finish the job because without Saddam, Iraq would most likely denigrate into tribal factions which could then be easily carved up by neighbors like Iran or Turkey. Remember, at this time we had been funding Saddam against the Iranians for nearly 10 years. Better Saddam than Iran getting the oil.

He submitted, oh when was that? About....oh yeah....never. So I suppose that is why he was attacked by the US who was still legally able to do so under the terms of the prior war 10 years earlier.

How about some consistency? Has Kim-Jong Il allowed weapons inspectors in? Where is the invasion of North Korea?

Rome was a world empire that lasted centries, and had the greatest cup of all which is Isreal under their wings. America only help Isreal not run it, Rome ruled many countries and had a great percentage of the worlds population under their rule for the amount of people that were around that time. It was an empire.

I sort of feel the same maybe it was needed to stop Sadam rule, how long was he going to dictate people and make people his prisoners in their own home. But Im also thinking we have swapped his nations paranoia on to us and created an atmosphere of us all being suspects or a threat to ones own nation. The security measures like ID cards has spawned an Orwellian society.

Originally posted by whaaa


Correct me if I'm wrong deltaboy. I thought China during the Roman empire was a collection of warring feudal states. Maybe you need to study a little more also.

i have study history since im history major. maybe u need to look at the Han Dynasty at the time.

en.wikipedia.org...

It is fair enough to state that contemporary empires of the Han Dynasty and the Roman Empire were the two superpowers of the known world. Several Roman embassies to China are recounted in Chinese history, starting with a Hou Hanshu (History of the Later Han) account of a Roman convoy set out by emperor Antoninus Pius that reached the Chinese capital Luoyang in 166 and was greeted by Emperor Huan.

no doubt China was extremely advance at the time and one of the superpowers as they say for their respective places.

[edit on 5-7-2005 by deltaboy]

[edit on 5-7-2005 by deltaboy]

Hello Mike.

This "politically Incorrect" act of yours isn't washing with me. It reeks of being a stunt. The brand spanking new forum of yours with 0 members and a few posts by you solidifies this.

That, and you seem to be a very contradictory fellow.

Later.

Well, Mike at ATS was definately going to have his hands full defending his ideas with this crowd, as someone pointed out, we tend not to take things at face value and pick apart any new information with an extremely fine toothed comb. I didn't really expect the insults, though. Maybe I haven't been hanging around in the right threads, but I thought ATSers were, for the most part, above that. Throw your insults, maybe if you call Mike at ATS an idiot and child enough, he'll come to believe what you're telling him.

Originally posted by cargo
Hello Mike.

This "politically Incorrect" act of yours isn't washing with me. It reeks of being a stunt. The brand spanking new forum of yours with 0 members and a few posts by you solidifies this.

That, and you seem to be a very contradictory fellow.

Later.

Hi cargo.

What act? Its a show that I used to watch before it got cancelled. And my forum is a new project I decided to take up. Again, truths are simpler than what some conspiracy theorists distort it to be.

[edit on 7/5/2005 by Mike at ATS]