Does a Clone have a soul?!?

but then we've come round full circle, and are back to the basic issue of this forum...religion in general...

I think this sums it up well:

If an organism (man) has consciousness, then it follows that it has a soul. According to this theorizing, clones would have souls. Simple, but it makes sense.

Simple things often do make sense, but since when has the bible (or other scripted religious teachings) made sense, or even not contradict themselves? It's the complexities within these religions that we're wrestling with on this question of whether clones have souls. Personally, I agree with the cited quote above...

I am sorry but i dont believe that there is such a thing as soul, although i'd like to believe it.

Certainly your perogative... I myself am uncomfortable with the word "soul", but I use it for lack of a more commonly understood one. You cannot deny that there is a fundamental difference between man and other animals in our world.... It is this awareness of ourself, and ability to so manipulate our world, that is truly unique to man. (as far as we know) So, there must be something different between us, and I'm not talking brain size...this is something unseen....as physically, there are few differences between man and ape for example. So, if it isn't a "soul" (again, for lack of a better word), then what is the root of consciousness?

The root of consciousness can equally be seen as brain neuronal activity if you wish it to be.

What stimulates that activity is the programming code that went into the computer and that continues to be fed into it, until the CPU eventually crashes.

It has been argued successfully, however, that James
Brown is the godfather of soul.

The root of consciousness can equally be seen as brain neuronal activity if you wish it to be.

Ahh...but this is simply seeing the result of a force upon matter. If we were to accept your definition, then we'd have to accept that we are seeing light, when we see our flashlight beam cut through fog...when all we are really seeing, is it's interaction with the water molecules in the air...and not the light itself....

You will see the neuronal activity after enough embryonic cellular development. You do not see it at the point of fertilization/zygote.

The programming code at that stage is two sets of DNA. Unromantic and mechanical.

When do you think the soul is present, and why?

BTW, the neurophysiological model of consciousness is not necessarily me, but I think to answer the cloning question successfully you need to answer the point of transfer of an already existing soul into a biological entity, or the point at which a new soul has come into existence.

This is all pertinent to abortion debates and the definition of a life.

I haven't seen anyone answer it yet, to be truthful, unless people have said the soul is present from birthing.

LOL, what a question, does a Clone have a Soul ?????

Of course it does, it can't be a clone if it didn't had a soul ! get what I mean ? If not think about it !
But I don't think the clone's soul would be the same as the "original" soul.

I think the question should be more like this,... "Can we clone a soul ?"

Well, how about an answer?

I don't think you can "clone a soul" because that is like cloning your mind which is impossible i believe. This is a subject which we have little understanding about.

You will see the neuronal activity after enough embryonic cellular development. You do not see it at the point of fertilization/zygote.

It is my belief that neuronal activity is just that...the activity of neurons...and is unrelated to whether or not a "soul" is present.

Matter is inert. Left to itself, it will continue to spin, etc. the same exact way, until acted upon by a force. The forces we are aware of, cannot be sensed with our five senses directly. (gravity, light, radio waves, etc.) We can only sense them through observing their effects on matter. Yet, none would doubt their existence. It is my arguement, that a "soul" is a similar kind of force. It is the force of consciousness. For me, it isn't a question of when the consciousness starts in a zygote, etc. The consciousness exists independent of the building blocks of the organism...but then goes into (not comes from) the organism and constructs it.... Just because you don't see neurons firing, doesn't mean something isn't going on. There is some force making these cells do what they do, and the scientific explainations only go so far...they still don't explain how genes do what they do. Sure, you can say, well, this gene does this, and this does that. But it still doesn't answer "how" it tells these other parts to organize this way. It is this force, this drive, and urge to move this once inert matter, that allows us to see the effects of the soul.... Just as the water molecules of fog allow us to see our flashlight beam....

Masked Avatar,

The answer is "no, not in this time and space".

Gazrok, it's pretty simple, everything just work like our computers, it's just far far beyond our imagination and much much more advanced of course.

Gazrok, it's pretty simple, everything just work like our computers, it's just far far beyond our imagination and much much more advanced of course.

That's pretty convenient...(it's simple, but too advanced). Suffice to say, I'm a large believer in Science, but there is a limit to science, and we can get down to particle, after particle, etc. But, we'll never answer the larger question "Why?"

Gazrok

As demonstrated by your signature.

Perhaps this analogy:
The computer is like the body.
The operating system is like the brain.
Each individual's collection of personal files is like the "soul."
In saving the files to back-up or a back-up device is like a person being "saved" by God.
And moving the any of the personal files to a new computer is like being "cloned" or represents the "resurrection."


As to a defintion of life or what would be the minimal defintion of life? At some point (maybe in high-school) I learned a "scientific" definition of life in the form of necessary and sufficient conditions. In order for something to be considered "life" or alive it must:

1) Grow
2) Reproduce
3) Metabolize energy
4) Respond to stimuli

But then one could say a campfire fits the definitions for "Life." It can certainly grow from an ember to a bon-fire. Blow on it and see if it reacts to external stimuli. And if one is not careful, this fire will reproduce until it takes over the entire forest. Then the fire will grow old and die out.

Then perhaps we could say that the definition needs to broaden out to encompass that a living form must be aware of a "difference between", or "separateness from", the world of 'self' and the 'not-self' world that lies around it.

Ahhh, then we run into whats considered "aware" or the minimal definition of "awareness."

See the pattern here?

But back to the definition of "Life," could not one say that living things are individual entities that can gather from sources external to themselves the materials and energy required to replicate themselves; that Life is the process by which they accomplish this?

One could also say that if we combine the laws of nature (chemistry, physics) with heriditable materials (genes), introduce a variation and selection and we may have a powerful 'programmer'.

Perhaps we should simply start with the/an assumption that "life" is molecular.........and if it can replicate, etc. and will have the abitlity for "consciousness"(self-awareness), it is defined as "Life." Maybe?

regards
seekerof

How can a clone be compared that much to an identical twin? Just b/c they look the same does not mean they are. Twins always have different fingerprints as someone stated before. Wouldn't a clone have the same exact fingerprints?
I remember watching a disgusting episode of Maury Povich where a teenager slept with her boyfriend, and his identical twin brother, got pregnant, didnt know who the father of her child was, got a DNA test, and it could NEVER even be 1% conclusive b/c the potential fathers had identical DNA.
So the only true similarity between twins and clones is that you could never tell who the baby's father would be, if both were potential fathers that is.
Wouldnt that be AWEful not knowing if a child was your son or your NEPHEW!?!

[Edited on 8-19-2003 by Isis Fibonacci]

[Edited on 8-19-2003 by Isis Fibonacci]

Perhaps this analogy:
The computer is like the body.
The operating system is like the brain.
Each individual's collection of personal files is like the "soul."
In saving the files to back-up or a back-up device is like a person being "saved" by God.
And moving the any of the personal files to a new computer is like being "cloned" or represents the "resurrection."

Ahh, but see, it is my contention that the file collection exists before the computer is built... The file collection (soul) started out as a single file (force), and as it experiences and interacts with reality, it builds (more force), and eventually constructs forms to help it experience (the body, or computer)...

So what your contending is that maybe what we need to figure out here Gaz is what came first.....the egg or the chicken....or in the above case....the files or the computer....or further, the soul before the physical body?

regards
seekerof

Originally posted by Gazrok

Gazrok, it's pretty simple, everything just work like our computers, it's just far far beyond our imagination and much much more advanced of course.

That's pretty convenient...(it's simple, but too advanced).

Suffice to say, I'm a large believer in Science, but there is a limit to science, and we can get down to particle, after particle, etc. But, we'll never answer the larger question "Why?"

Well I mean that the Answer is simple ! Not that it's simple and much more advance.... Keep in mind I'm not American so I don't speak english perfectly like you do, so perhaps it's an idea to try to understand what is meant ?

And if you want to know why, that's also simple to answer, that is because our reference is limited compared to the universe. And it was meant that way, we are not allowed to know yet how such things work. We must unite first.

I guess the question won't be whether the clone has got a soul, but whether the clone has got a soul of his own. A person's soul is connected to his ability to speek and understand language, it's a mind thing. I know that many people have their own understanding of what a soul is, but this is what the bible means when speeking of soul. Hence "to sell your soul to Satan" is to aquire his given mind set in a matter. To hand over your soul to God means to devote oneself to the teachings of Jesus.

The soul is dependent on the spirit, they are two separate concepts, for where the soul is like a book or a plant, the spirit is like a lamp or a fire.

If this clone is an exact duplicate of this Will of your's they may actually share a common soul since God didn't create them as separate individuals and the clone is made to be a copy of Will.

As long as the clone can speek and understand language, he has a soul, but is this soul the same as Will's? That's the question.

Blessings,
Mikromarius

I think that a clone has a soul. First of all it is a living creature and I believe all life is controlled by souls. Also, I was doing some research into cloning and I found out that when something is cloned (animal or human) that the DNA is the same however the neural impulses sent from the brain are completely different. What that means is that the personallity, thought prossesses and intelegence of the clone is completly different than that of the original. This shows that there is something more to a body than just physical science.
About the whole controversy about us "playing God."
God is not currently creating humans. We are. Yes, I believe that He originally created us but he isn't anymore. A body is created when the reproductive cells of two creatures of the same or similar species mix and combine their components. This is science at work, not God. So what is so wrong about taking the next step and doing this without reproducing? Essentially we are just recreating the shell in which the soul is housed. We aren't creating an abomination. The soul is the very essence of life. All we do is create the carbon based body for it to dwell in.