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Top 4 most powerful military's

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posted on Jul, 17 2005 @ 03:30 PM
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Seekerof I have seen many posts of yours(and many others sharing views like that of yours ) which directly or indirectly tries to show Russia down

I ll try to explain each of your stereotype views

1 Economy
Most of the anti Russia posters speak of poor state of Russian Economy ...this speaks of their ignorance ....from 1998 onwards (that is after president Putin took his post ) Russia has continuously shown a record high growth in her Economy :
1 GPD growth rate has been approx 6% since 1998 (sometimes even 7%)
2 Industrial growth rate has been 6% since 1998
3 most of the external debts has been cleared BEFORE TIME (i ll like to add that the US is in BAD condition in this respect )
4 Investment ratings has improved (including Standard and poor's) simultaneously (even after the Yokos case )
5 Russia today has the second highest amount Gold and hard currency reserves in the planet (only after Japan)

with all these developments I cant understand why you people still project your stereotype views about the Russian Economy .Specially when you people call China and India the most promising economies in the world ...whose GDP per-capita incomes are respectively 2 times and 5 times less than that of Russia
(source CIA 2005)



Military Expenses


Ok taken granted that your stereotype views about Russian Economy are correct....But I cant understand why you people always have the "lack of Funds" tag when it comes to Russia ....Russia has the second largest military budget
the Russian military budget is approx 70bn$ the figure for other top military powers are :
China 40bn
UK 37 bn
France 36 bn
Brazil 18 bn
India 15bn

(source :
www.strategypage.com...
www.strategypage.com...)

again this military budget is an estimation of military experts (who supposedly have better understanding about the subject than you people do) and not the Russian Govt (The Russian Govt doesn’t officially publish military budget)

here again comes the same thing If you people call China /India(????) to be rising Military powers then why the "NO FUND " Tag when it comes to Russia?

The Modernization of Arms

Another stereotype view about Russian Military is they use "Rusting Soviet Junks "
I have two views against it

1 all these views are utter nonsense ....80% of the air force birds will be upgraded by 2007, the military has already almost modernized the the Navy is also showing a slow modernization with a lot of war ships in the row
the defense INDUSTRY has grown by 6.5 % since 1999

2 even if they don’t modernize what’s the harm?
China and India are on the verge of becoming among the top military powers by buying or coping (for china) all those soviet junks ...the fact is that till date their air force don’t have a technology equivalent to the Russian technology of 1970s ....modern indigenous technology if any are yet to come


my general conclusion
when you are in a race don’t see how people are behind you rather you see how much are ahead of you
same is the condition with Russia ...when the Russian generals complain that their units are in a bad condition ...they compare them with these of USA rather with those that were in USSR ....they don’t consider powers like UK China India etc but when it comes to ranking Russia ranks just next to USA (better than the US in a few segments ) ...other powers like China UK etc are FAR FAR behind

waiting for constructive DISCUSSION but please no more India vs China like DEBATE ......




posted on Jul, 17 2005 @ 04:05 PM
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I completely agree with prelude. Russia is far more powerful than people think it is. I mean it has the LARGEST nuclear arsenal in the world, that alone gives it alot of power. And if we look at the leaders behind the wheel
Bush= retard Putin= smart.



posted on Jul, 17 2005 @ 04:10 PM
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Originally posted by Seekerof

Originally posted by SiberianTiger
Your stats on Russia Airforce's operational Planes are wrong 98% of our Planes are FULLY operational.


Really, SiberianTiger?
Read this?
Reality Check: Russian Defense Minister says Russian Army Could Not Wage War

This?
RUSSIA'S CRUMBLING MILITARY

Or this?
Russia's Air Force: An Institution in Painful Transition

Or how about this mention from a Venik's Russian military site?


The flying hours for 2000 averaged 20 hours for the 37th Air Army, 20 hours for Frontal Aviation and approximately 44 hours for the 61st Air Army. According to Major General Dimitry Morozov, in 2000 less than 5,000 aircraft were `serviceable' (capable of being maintained and repaired), with operational strength at approximately 4,000 aircraft and helicopters. Of all serviceable aircraft, about 35 per cent are actually used, the rest being idled to save on airframe, engine and equipment stress. Only 20 per cent of the air force is said to be 'modern'. Problems are so serious that this once formidable air force is believed to be incapable of dealing with two large-scale strategic missions simultaneously. The outlook is particularly bleak for Frontal Aviation, where only 54 per cent of the front-line fleet is serviceable, and the 61st Air Army (the transport fleet) where 50 per cent of the fleet is serviceable. The lack of flying hours and maintenance may explain the air force's deteriorating safety record. In the first six months of 2000, accident rates increased threefold from the first six months of 1999. During the 1980s, the accident rate averaged one emergency every 26,000 hours. By 1999-2000 this had risen to one accident every 12,000-13,000 hours. In addition to the funding, personnel, aircraft and maintenance crisis, the RFAF is having to cope with inadequate ground support structures. The Air Traffic Control (ATC) system is decrepit, and airfield lighting is operating in `emergency conditions' in 40 per cent of cases. Combined with the poor training of many pilots and ground crews, the lack of spare parts and the often erratic performance of ground-control systems, the state of the air force has been seriously degraded.

Current State of the Russian Air Force

More can be found.
Your assertion, SiberianTiger, is quite unfounded.


seekerof

[edit on 5-7-2005 by Seekerof]


seekerof
the two links that you have provided
1 www.emergency.com...
2 www.rand.org...
dates back to 1996 ...a lot of changes has taken since then ...economy and defense spending has improved dramatically so ill not waste my time with all those rubbish

now about the link that dates back to 2000(current state of Russian air force )
www.aeronautics.ru...
will you please point out the offences against the air force ....in the quick reading that went through i didn’t find anything remarkable to refute apart from those stereotype views


now about the topic "the army could not wage an OFFENSIVE war"
can you name me a single country that is in a position to wage an OFFENSIVE war
was the US able to do it recently recently with the NATO and the local Forces in Afghanistan and Iraq ? the US is in fact in a bad position with many of her allies backing out .....now think of US going alone in afganistan without ...UK.... without the local Northern Alliance ...without Pakistan....their position wouuld have been the same as it happened in the USAF vs IAF camp

China? its not yet in a position to wage an offensive against the tiny Taiwan ...so forget the rest

Yet the only offense comes against Russia when it openly admits its drawbacks unlike the others ???????

well for your info .... after the recent joint military camp between the Russians and the Americans in Germany an American General was quoted saying that the two side had no differences except the language

Its interesting that When Mr Ivanov complains of degrading military condition (in increases the military spending for 2006 by 40%)it becomes a propaganda for you ....while when the USAF gets Fuc$$$ked by the Indian AF that's for you a way for the US authorities to draw more Funds?????. ......GREAT logic.

actually the problem with you people is that you view Russia with Black specks ……
During the 90s when the oligarchs looted the state property...u said the government is doing nothing ...when the same state punished the same person(Yokos ) for corruption ...you said "Putin is a dictator".........when Russian press publishes new developments in Russian Military the Russian media becomes "State controlled"...again when the same Russian media publishes criticisms against the Govt(like that of Ivanov) they become the red quotations for you original souls...!!!!!!!

I am sorry to say that where knowledge is bliss ignorance and hypocrisy is often taken to be a sign of profundity .

[edit on 17-7-2005 by prelude]



posted on Jul, 17 2005 @ 04:56 PM
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Debate the facts...

Looking to debate, prelude?
Your calling me out then talking crap is interesting.
Furthermore, you had better come packing some serious sources, because quite frankly, you have not provided anything to discount what the Russian general has claimed and asserted, nor what the other articles assert and claim. Interesting, no?

Tell you what sport, till you provide something resembling 'credible' and is dated after those dates that you seem to dismiss. Bottom line, those articles hold more water than your simple verbal dismissal.

Please counter the claims of those articles with concrete factual arguments and sources that would or will show that those articles are mistaken.

I look forward to you doing so and providing those legitimate counter informations and sourcings. Till you do, please remember what you mentioned:


...knowledge is bliss ignorance and hypocrisy is often taken to be a sign of profundity .







seekerof

[edit on 17-7-2005 by Seekerof]



posted on Jul, 17 2005 @ 05:46 PM
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"quite frankly, you have not provided anything to discount what the Russian general has claimed and asserted, nor what the other articles assert and claim."


well i ll have do do a bit of research fr that but any way even if the claim is true ...its a good sign for the Russian military....alleast things are out..you know the problem

"Please counter the claims of those articles with concrete factual arguments and sources that would or will show that those articles are mistaken.

I look forward to you doing so and providing those legitimate counter informations and sourcings."

www.strategypage.com...
I think this link is enough....... it Ranks Russia top among all the european nations considering all the major areas ...but its useless for some people ..... literates will make it out


Till you do, please remember what you mentioned:

...knowledge is bliss ignorance and hypocrisy is often taken to be a sign of profundity .


i need not remember coz i m well aware of the "living examples " around me in this forum




[edit on 17-7-2005 by prelude]



posted on Jul, 17 2005 @ 05:49 PM
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Hmmm, lets looks at some facts about the Russian military machine shall we?




Military expert Alexander Golts said in a Die Welt interview that every time when experiencing failure, Russian military is giving way to inventing lies. "Such a reaction demonstrates degradation of the military", Mr. Golts says. According to him, the very sad fact is that the military is making fun out of the President by hiding the truth from him. The expert says Vladimir Putin reminds "a puppet in the hands of the military".
newsfromrussia.com...


RUSSIA'S NUCLEAR FLAGSHIP MAY BLOW ANY MINUTE


RUSSIA'S top nuclear warship is in such bad shape it could explode "any minute", the country's Navy supremo warned yesterday.

Admiral Vladimir Kuroyedov ordered the vessel - armed with 20 Cruise missiles - back to base, fearing it too unsafe for the seas.

He slammed shoddy maintenance of the nuclear reactor on board 26,000-ton cruiser Peter the Great - rated best ship in the Navy's Northern Fleet only two months ago.
www.russianlondon.com...


These are but a few. As Grandpa Fred said "You cannot shine .........." The simple fact is that the only think that is keeping Russia as a superpower is its ICBM arsenal which is bound to begin degrading.

An interesting read on this is from the Air Command and Staff Collage paper titled: Standing on One Leg: The Future of The Russian Nuclear Triad

Standing On One Leg



posted on Jul, 17 2005 @ 06:01 PM
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Does it Matter? Who are the Most powerfiul armies in the world? No it doesn't .
Note: During world War 2 when Hitler, was at his reign, many people were astonished, at how quickly the Nazis defeated France, (in 39 days) ( who many military experts considered) Was the Most Powerful Military force, in the world at that time... So it doesn't matter. You could have 1 billion armed troops, the most sophisticated weaponry, the will , and the might to fight...... Once you meet your military match, you will be defeated. and go down into History, as a HAS-BEEN. End of Story.



posted on Jul, 17 2005 @ 06:12 PM
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as posted by prelude
I think this link is enough....... it Ranks Russia top among all the european nations considering all the major areas ...but its useless for some people ..... literates will make it out


Thank you, prelude, for providing that singular [single] source to counter all those I and others have presented.

You know, I am an admirer of Sukhoi and certain aspects of the Russian military, but facts needs to be countered with facts, and again, your singular source does not sufficiently counter what has been presented concerning the condition of the Russian military as a whole. I'm amazed that you accept being Europe's number One military when at other moments in time, the Russian military would have spit at such an idea or mention. The Russian military was the among the best in the world, and the Russian military knew this; stated thus. See the difference here, prelude: onetime best in the World, now simply the best among European nations?




seekerof

[edit on 17-7-2005 by Seekerof]



posted on Jul, 17 2005 @ 06:16 PM
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Military expert Alexander Golts said in a Die Welt interview that every time when experiencing failure, Russian military is giving way to inventing lies. "Such a reaction demonstrates degradation of the military", Mr. Golts says. According to him, the very sad fact is that the military is making fun out of the President by hiding the truth from him. The expert says Vladimir Putin reminds "a puppet in the hands of the military".
newsfromrussia.com...


quite Interesting! the so called Expart comes the know which has been concealed by the army ...A news that dosent reaches the President reaches the EXPERT......where were those exparts during the 9/11

moreover if the president is a puppet under the military what's the need to lie ur puppet

that's an example of brain made in America





RUSSIA'S top nuclear warship is in such bad shape it could explode "any minute", the country's Navy supremo warned yesterday.

Admiral Vladimir Kuroyedov ordered the vessel - armed with 20 Cruise missiles - back to base, fearing it too unsafe for the seas.

He slammed shoddy maintenance of the nuclear reactor on board 26,000-ton cruiser Peter the Great - rated best ship in the Navy's Northern Fleet only two months ago.
www.russianlondon.com...


Look at your country first
the same can happen with US no nuclear arms needed ..Laden enough is enough
I used to think that the Pro american world has some sort of respect for freedom of press. ......i was wrong ......world was made to think that things in US are near to perfect.....yet 4 easily hijacked planes were enough to shake down ......need more "Links" ...Fahrenheit 9/11



posted on Jul, 17 2005 @ 06:18 PM
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Two words, prelude: Afghanistan and Chechnya.

You were saying?




seekerof



posted on Jul, 17 2005 @ 06:32 PM
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Originally posted by Seekerof

as posted by prelude

You know, I am an admirer of Sukhoi and certain aspects of the Russian military, but facts needs to be countered with facts, and again, your singular source does not sufficiently counter what has been presented concerning the condition of the Russian military as a whole. I'm amazed that you accept being Europe's number One military when at other moments in time, the Russian military would have spit at such an idea or mention. The Russian military was the among the best in the world, and the Russian military knew this; stated thus. See the difference here, prelude: onetime best in the World, now simply the best among European nations?




seekerof

[edit on 17-7-2005 by Seekerof]


Its now the second best in this planet (look at the points in the other segments for China......

yes YES and Yes I admit
Its a matter great disgrace for Russia that today we are far beyond the USA

I dont say that things in russian military are good enough ..they are infact worse in some cases ......but still far far better than China ,UK etc ...atleast we have something called "" indigenous"""



posted on Jul, 17 2005 @ 08:43 PM
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Originally posted by prelude
[Look at your country first
the same can happen with US no nuclear arms needed ..Laden enough is enough


Hmm thats not really the topic at hand, but rather a Strawman and not a creative one at that.

Please cite where a nuclear powered ship in the USN was focred to go back into port because there was a danger of the reactor exploding


Yes we are aware of the difficulties in fighting an asymetric war. No doubt the Russians are well versed in that aspect what with thier experiences in Afganistan and Chechnya as mentioned above.

[edit on 7/17/05 by FredT]



posted on Jul, 18 2005 @ 02:59 AM
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LOOK AT VIETNAM GUY, 58,000+ IRAQ 6000-9000 KIA, Afgahn 13,000+ KIA 35,000+ Wounded In Action= (W.I.A.) Chechnya only lost 11,000 soilders (Federal Soilders) KIA from both 1994-1999- now 2005 WAR but we killed over 20,000 Chechins, PS that Masonic Puttin is "PROLONGING" this Chechin war, to make money on selling Rus weapons to Chechens



posted on Jul, 18 2005 @ 03:00 AM
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Russia needs a strong and powerful booming ally to get back on track.. they have the human/natural resources for bringing themselves up and pulling up those on their side too...
China is a very good prospective ally now..
So is India.. Russia is trying "its pants off" to get India and china to create this axis.. But the rod in the gears as it were, is Pakistan..
Pakistan is anti India.. that will NEVER change..
And IMHO the US WANTS that to be so always..Because Pakistan is what keeps this troika from forming..
NOW I understand the US hypocracy towards Pakistan vis-vis India..

A Russia-India-China alliance would screw anyone over.. That cannot be denied..



posted on Jul, 18 2005 @ 03:02 AM
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Originally posted by prelude

China 40bn
UK 37 bn
France 36 bn
Brazil 18 bn
India 15bn



BRAZIL : 18bn$??!!

What DO they spend it on?? I hear they make good exec jets..



posted on Jul, 18 2005 @ 03:02 AM
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Originally posted by belorus

I mean it has the LARGEST nuclear arsenal in the world

Not true. The US have the largest nuclear arsenal in the world.

10,455: Total number of warheads in the American arsenal
8,400: Total number of operational nuclear warheads in the Russian arsenal

Source: www.cdi.org...



posted on Jul, 18 2005 @ 03:07 AM
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Rus doesn't need and Ally to fight USA and when ww3 starts Rus will not ask for help, NON of that is true Rus has 39,000 Nukes and USA 25,000 nukes all those figures are nothing but DIS-info, now with the way USA is pushing for more nukes I think Rus has increased by 75,000 nukes while us increased to 50,000 nukes.

[edit on 18-7-2005 by SiberianTiger]



posted on Jul, 18 2005 @ 03:36 AM
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Originally posted by Daedalus3
Russia needs a strong and powerful booming ally to get back on track.. they have the human/natural resources for bringing themselves up and pulling up those on their side too.



Russia is not the leader. i know india can be in second place but not china. the partnership will see china as leader.

its not the soviet union.

look who has the money and the economic power. who cares about technology. western countries eg france germany are willing to sell china very advanced tech. russian tech has never been very good. but right now china is forced to buy russian arms because of the 89 ban on weapon sales to china.

russia might have a lot of natural resources but it means nothing when you dont have the factories to turn then into finished goods.

eg.

russia sells china $50 worth of raw materials china sells the finished goods back to russia for $200. you see whos making the money.



posted on Jul, 18 2005 @ 03:42 AM
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Well nobody was seeing anybody as "the leader" in this partnership but china knows it can' take the US on alone.. IF at the same time its wants to be "top dawg" in any pact it is a part of then well I guess that will be China's downfall..

Russia just doesn't have the money right now to create the maunfacturing industry china has.. But Russia can get that money with all the oil reserves it has..



posted on Jul, 18 2005 @ 03:54 AM
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Originally posted by Daedalus3
Well nobody was seeing anybody as "the leader" in this partnership but china knows it can' take the US on alone.. IF at the same time its wants to be "top dawg" in any pact it is a part of then well I guess that will be China's downfall..


Daedalus3 read this article. the whole thing
www.kimsoft.com...

What is russia going to provide? old soviet stocks of planes. china can produce the J-11 by herself now. have our own ships. build our own tanks. and our subs.



Russia just doesn't have the money right now to create the maunfacturing industry china has.. But Russia can get that money with all the oil reserves it has..


not even selling oil would bring enough money to russia. who buys russias oil? china who invest in siberia and russian industries? china.

even if russia had the same manufacturing base. it still wont be able to compete with chinas low cost labour and efficent work force. a russian works for twice as much as a chinese(averages) and china still has vast amount of unemployed still needing jobs.



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