Ancient Michigan copper mines.

What the bible has to offer

1Ki 10:22 For the king had a fleet of ships of Tarshish at sea with the fleet of Hiram. Once every three years the fleet of ships of Tarshish used to come bringing gold, silver, ivory, apes, and peacocks.
1Ki 10:23 Thus King Solomon excelled all the kings of the earth in riches and in wisdom.

It took 3 years for the ships to run the route. Hiram was king of Tyre. Tyre was part of the Phonecian empire.
We know that Cadiz, Spain and Southwest England were settled by them as well.

Job predates Moses. Here is an excerp from that book

Job 28:2 Iron is taken out of the earth, and copper is smelted from the ore.
Job 28:3 Man puts an end to darkness and searches out to the farthest limit the ore in gloom and deep darkness.
Job 28:4 He opens shafts in a valley away from where anyone lives; they are forgotten by travelers; they hang in the air, far away from mankind; they swing to and fro.
Job 28:5 As for the earth, out of it comes bread, but underneath it is turned up as by fire.

Finally, there is a fairly strong case made for Ezekiel 39:6 to be referring to Russia and the United States.
If that is the case, then the same term can also mean the same land in Isaiah where God speaks of Tyre saying

Isa 23:1 The burden of Tyre. Howl, ye ships of Tarshish; for it is laid waste, so that there is no house, no entering in: from the land of Chittim it is revealed to them.
Isa 23:2 Be still, ye inhabitants of the isle; thou whom the merchants of Zidon, that pass over the sea, have replenished.

It then goes into a list of items and places

Food for thought

Originally posted by cleasterwood
First and foremost, these theories are NOT mine but compiled from various sources. You can deny them all you want, but the fact remains that this theory is becoming more and more accepted and can be verified in all the manners previously listed whether you agree with the conclusions or not.

The fact that the theories are not yours was mentioned in my last post. The people that advance these theories are out to make a buck. They list selective things taken out of context and present these as some kind of "evidence." A good example of this is your citing of the Egyptian "lunar calendar," which is only a regular calendar that counts the months in a year instead of the days. Anyone advancing any theory and citing this calendar in the way you have been told about it is a charlatan.

You have claimed that "the fact is this theory is becoming more and more accepted." That may be true in the general population. But among people that know about such things, this is not the case in the least. If, as you say, these things can be verified in all the manners previously listed, by all means please do so. I haven't seen any of this even slightly verified here or anywhere else for that matter. In fact, not one of your pieces of "evidence" matches up with the tale you are trying to construct with them. For example, please explain your statement that records of the third destruction of Atlantis can be found at the "Victory Temple" of Ramses III, in light of the facts of this temple which I handed to you above.

Anyone may state any conclusion he wishes. However, if the conclusion does not follow from the evidence, one may expect others to point this fact out.

Originally posted by cleasterwoodJust because cultures talked about ATLANTIS, doesn't mean they all called it the same name. Still you can't explain away all the links between cultures around the world. You're simply a skeptic and I refuse to argue the point. And I have read both of Plato's texts, thoroughly I might add and on several ocassions. Mayans may have arose when you say, but their ancestors were there long before and it could have caused the rise of their civilization due to the "white man from across the Sunrise Sea."

There never was a place called Atlantis. Plato made it up. As I said before, that does not preclude the fact that there may have been many other ancient civilizations that are now completely unknown to us. A white man may come from many places, even from civilizations we know about.

Originally posted by cleasterwoodThere are many arguements for and against and I'm not inclining myself to continue arguing with you about something you don't believe in. You'll never believe in it and that's your right, but I do and I believe it can be proved. You're entitled to your opinion as am I.

My opinion has evolved over the last twenty years or so from one similar to yours to the one you see here today . This is due to my researching of the subject and the reasoned analysis of what I was able to find out.

You of course are entitled to your opinion, but when I see an opinion such as yours posted here, with the "evidence" you have provided, I will always point out what I know about these things you so blithely state as supporting your theory when I know absolutely that they do not. I did not ask for your response or an argument. I said what I said and provided links to reputable sites for anyone to go to to check and see if I am mangling the truth. This is the proper way to make a case. You have rattled off several items you claim are factual and claim that they support your case, all but one (the catastrophist's Tunisian study) without reference. Please provide any links to any information you may have that might tend to support your statements and I (and others) may be inclined to toy with the idea of Atlantis once again. I would be interested just to see (1) if you have any such references and (2) if I have not already been there, done that.

Beleive me Cleasterwood, I've been in your shoes. It was surprisingly hard for me to let go of Atlantis too.

Harte

Hello all,

bc] The fact is that the Columbian & pre-Columbian caravels [i.e., sailing ships] from Europe were too small for horses. Our horses weigh 1000 lbs a piece and eat, drink and "go" constantly. And no one in their right mind would stable a stallion near a mare. The Chinese Junks, and the Arab rigs were each large enough for horses, so that IMO, puts the horse in the Americas first, along with an advanced civilization of some origin or another.

These people would/could/might use copper.

On the other hand, a very special "talking sand" was found in the Queen's chamber of the Great Pyramid. This same type of "talking sand" [which whispers as you walk on it] is found on two beaches on the Lake Michigan side of the Upper Peninsula [the Upper Peninsula of Michigan being where the copper mines are]. So did Egyptian [Arab] ships sail the Great Lakes?

If they did they'd have found more than copper, because those same mines are full of silver.

bc
.

Harte,
In reference to your Deluge arguement, I'm supplying you with specific examples from Timaeus. I remember you saying that Critias and Timaeus only spoke of ONE deluge, but here's what contradictions your statement.

Here's the translation url: www.sacred-texts.com...
CRITIAS
1. The whole country is only a long promontory extending far into the sea
away from the rest of the continent, while the surrounding basin of the sea is everywhere deep in the neighbourhood of the shore. Many great deluges have taken place during the nine thousand years, for that is the number of years which have elapsed since the time of which I am speaking; and during all this time and through so many changes, there has never been any considerable accumulation of the soil coming down from the mountains, as in other places, but the earth has fallen away all round and sunk out of sight.


URL for Timaeus: classics.mit.edu...
1. To this city came Solon, and was received there with great honour; he asked the priests who were most skilful in such matters, about antiquity, and made the discovery that neither he nor any other Hellene knew anything worth mentioning about the times of old. On one occasion, wishing to draw them on to speak of antiquity, he began to tell about the most ancient things in our part of the world-about Phoroneus, who is called "the first man," and about Niobe; and after the Deluge, of the survival of Deucalion and Pyrrha; and he traced the genealogy of their descendants, and reckoning up the dates, tried to compute how many years ago the events of which he was speaking happened. Thereupon one of the priests, who was of a very great age, said: O Solon, Solon, you Hellenes are never anything but children, and there is not an old man among you. Solon in return asked him what he meant. I mean to say, he replied, that in mind you are all young; there is no old opinion handed down among you by ancient tradition, nor any science which is hoary with age. And I will tell you why. There have been, and will be again, many destructions of mankind arising out of many causes; the greatest have been brought about by the agencies of fire and water, and other lesser ones by innumerable other causes. There is a story, which even you have preserved, that once upon a time Paethon, the son of Helios, having yoked the steeds in his father's chariot, because he was not able to drive them
in the path of his father, burnt up all that was upon the earth, and was himself destroyed by a thunderbolt. Now this has the form of a myth, but really signifies a declination of the bodies moving in the heavens around the earth, and a great conflagration of things upon the earth, which recurs after long intervals; at such times those who live upon the mountains and in dry and lofty places are more liable to destruction than those who dwell by rivers or on the seashore. And from this calamity the Nile, who is our never-failing saviour, delivers and preserves us. When, on the other hand, the gods purge the earth with a deluge of water, the survivors in your country are herdsmen and shepherds who dwell on the mountains, but those who, like you, live in cities are carried by the rivers into the sea. Whereas in this land, neither then nor at any other time, does the water come down from above on the fields, having always a tendency to come up
from below; for which reason the traditions preserved here are the most ancient.

2. The fact is, that wherever the extremity of winter frost or of summer
does not prevent, mankind exist, sometimes in greater, sometimes in
lesser numbers. And whatever happened either in your country or in
ours, or in any other region of which we are informed-if there were
any actions noble or great or in any other way remarkable, they have
all been written down by us of old, and are preserved in our temples.
Whereas just when you and other nations are beginning to be provided
with letters and the other requisites of civilized life, after the
usual interval, the stream from heaven, like a pestilence, comes pouring
down, and leaves only those of you who are destitute of letters and
education; and so you have to begin all over again like children,
and know nothing of what happened in ancient times, either among us
or among yourselves. As for those genealogies of yours which you just
now recounted to us, Solon, they are no better than the tales of children.
In the first place you remember a single deluge only, but there were
many previous ones; in the next place, you do not know that there
formerly dwelt in your land the fairest and noblest race of men which
ever lived, and that you and your whole city are descended from a
small seed or remnant of them which survived. And this was unknown
to you, because, for many generations, the survivors of that destruction
died, leaving no written word. For there was a time, Solon, before
the great deluge of all, when the city which now is Athens was first
in war and in every way the best governed of all cities, is said to
have performed the noblest deeds and to have had the fairest constitution
of any of which tradition tells, under the face of heaven.


So, with these specific references in mind, we can easily surmise that there were many deluges followed by ONE great deluge that led to the end of Atlantis. Therefore, my reference to 3 deluges is not so far fetched. The Sais priest reinstates this fact more than once as he and Solon are conversing.

Plato also reiterates on several ocassions that this is a TRUE story.

More links will follow.

Originally posted by cleasterwood
Harte,
In reference to your Deluge arguement, I'm supplying you with specific examples from Timaeus. I remember you saying that Critias and Timaeus only spoke of ONE deluge, but here's what contradictions your statement.

Here's the translation url: www.sacred-texts.com...
CRITIAS
1. The whole country is only a long promontory extending far into the sea
away from the rest of the continent, while the surrounding basin of the sea is everywhere deep in the neighbourhood of the shore. Many great deluges have taken place during the nine thousand years, for that is the number of years which have elapsed since the time of which I am speaking; and during all this time and through so many changes, there has never been any considerable accumulation of the soil coming down from the mountains, as in other places, but the earth has fallen away all round and sunk out of sight.

Cleasterwood,
First, allow me to quote myself from two of my previous posts in this thread:

I will absolutely concede that the geological record is littered with evidence of meteoric and cometary impacts of Earth. Some of these impacts no doubt influenced or destroyed civilizations in the past. Add to them the regular volcanic activity and we probably had several civilizations disappearing or dispersing every thousand years or so back in the old days.

and

Considering the only source for the Atlantis myth is Plato, and Plato only told of one single destructive event, where do you get this information?

Given what I said, where do you find any "deluge argument" of mine? It is fact that Plato did only tell of one destructive event in reference to Atlantis. The quote you supply here from Critias refers to deluges and other calamities that have happened in the 9,000 years since Atlantis was destroyed. I have not said that deluges and other calamities have not occured in the past. And while the specific quote from Critias above only refers to the time after Atlantis, I'm quite certain that various types of cataclysms have happened before and after the time period involving the "destruction" of fictional Atlantis.

Originally posted by cleasterwood
URL for Timaeus: classics.mit.edu...
1. To this city came Solon, and was received there with great honour; he asked the priests who were most skilful in such matters, about antiquity, and made the discovery that neither he nor any other Hellene knew anything worth mentioning about the times of old. On one occasion, wishing to draw them on to speak of antiquity, he began to tell about the most ancient things in our part of the world-about Phoroneus, who is called "the first man," and about Niobe; and after the Deluge, of the survival of Deucalion and Pyrrha; and he traced the genealogy of their descendants, and reckoning up the dates, tried to compute how many years ago the events of which he was speaking happened.

It is interesting to me that you would highlight here Solon's telling of the story of Phoroneus to the Egyptians. Why do you cite a Greek myth to support your contentions about Atlantis? No Greek stories of Atlantis exist, other than the two dialogues of Plato you linked to above. I will stipulate that practically every culture on Earth has some form of a cataclysmic destruction myth, usually involving floods.

Originally posted by cleasterwoodThereupon one of the priests, who was of a very great age, said: O Solon, Solon, you Hellenes are never anything but children, and there is not an old man among you. Solon in return asked him what he meant. I mean to say, he replied, that in mind you are all young; there is no old opinion handed down among you by ancient tradition, nor any science which is hoary with age. And I will tell you why. There have been, and will be again, many destructions of mankind arising out of many causes; the greatest have been brought about by the agencies of fire and water, and other lesser ones by innumerable other causes. There is a story, which even you have preserved, that once upon a time Paethon, the son of Helios, having yoked the steeds in his father's chariot, because he was not able to drive them
in the path of his father, burnt up all that was upon the earth, and was himself destroyed by a thunderbolt. Now this has the form of a myth, but really signifies a declination of the bodies moving in the heavens around the earth, and a great conflagration of things upon the earth, which recurs after long intervals; at such times those who live upon the mountains and in dry and lofty places are more liable to destruction than those who dwell by rivers or on the seashore. And from this calamity the Nile, who is our never-failing saviour, delivers and preserves us. When, on the other hand, the gods purge the earth with a deluge of water, the survivors in your country are herdsmen and shepherds who dwell on the mountains, but those who, like you, live in cities are carried by the rivers into the sea. Whereas in this land, neither then nor at any other time, does the water come down from above on the fields, having always a tendency to come up
from below; for which reason the traditions preserved here are the most ancient.

According to Plato's Timaeus, the Egyptians thought the Nile kept them safe from comets, meteors and apparently lightning. Do you believe this?
Also, according to the Timaeus, the Egyptians claim that no deluge ever fell on their fields, but the waters "come up from below." Are you willing to say that this can be true? What would happen to Egypt if a large comet hit in the Mediterreanean?
Again, I have never (and will never) argue against periodic cataclysms happening in the past (or the future.) But this still does not address the veracity of the story of Atlantis.

Originally posted by cleasterwood
2. The fact is, that wherever the extremity of winter frost or of summer
does not prevent, mankind exist, sometimes in greater, sometimes in
lesser numbers. And whatever happened either in your country or in
ours, or in any other region of which we are informed-if there were
any actions noble or great or in any other way remarkable, they have
all been written down by us of old, and are preserved in our temples.
Whereas just when you and other nations are beginning to be provided
with letters and the other requisites of civilized life, after the
usual interval, the stream from heaven, like a pestilence, comes pouring
down, and leaves only those of you who are destitute of letters and
education; and so you have to begin all over again like children,
and know nothing of what happened in ancient times, either among us
or among yourselves. As for those genealogies of yours which you just
now recounted to us, Solon, they are no better than the tales of children.
In the first place you remember a single deluge only, but there were
many previous ones; in the next place, you do not know that there
formerly dwelt in your land the fairest and noblest race of men which
ever lived, and that you and your whole city are descended from a
small seed or remnant of them which survived. And this was unknown
to you, because, for many generations, the survivors of that destruction
died, leaving no written word. For there was a time, Solon, before
the great deluge of all, when the city which now is Athens was first
in war and in every way the best governed of all cities, is said to
have performed the noblest deeds and to have had the fairest constitution
of any of which tradition tells, under the face of heaven.

Here the Egyptians are telling Solon that there was another city far in the past (9,000 years before Solon's life) that was located at or near the site of the Athens of his day. No archaeological evidence exists for this "city". At this time, the most reasonable statement to be made about this is that no such "ancient Athens" ever existed. The antiquity of the Athenians was the only way that Plato could make his point about the corrupt and degraded Athens of his day and the utopian, highly civilized and democratic Athens of old. It was these "Athenians" that conquered the invading Atlanteans just prior to the destruction of Atlantis.

Originally posted by cleasterwood
So, with these specific references in mind, we can easily surmise that there were many deluges followed by ONE great deluge that led to the end of Atlantis. Therefore, my reference to 3 deluges is not so far fetched. The Sais priest reinstates this fact more than once as he and Solon are conversing.

Plato also reiterates on several ocassions that this is a TRUE story.

More links will follow.

As I have said here and elsewhere, the possibility of past unknown cataclysmic events on Earth cannot be discounted. My question is, how on Earth does this in any way provide even a shred of supporting evidence for the existence of Atlantis?

And yes, Plato's characters said it was a true story. That's not good enough though. That is only a literary mechanism. Plato was no historian. His work should be read in the context in which it was written if complete understanding of his meaning is to be achieved.

By the way, I am happy to see you using Plato as a reference here. Like I said before, there exists no other reference for Atlantis, so Plato must be consulted in any intelligent argument about Atlantis.

Harte