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Ancient Michigan copper mines.

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posted on Jul, 2 2005 @ 03:05 PM
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Supposedly 500,000 tons of copper were mined & no one knows where it went. It seems different wesites have different dates of the mines being active. Any1 else got any info on what culture or country mined the copper & what was it for?

www.science-frontiers.com...

www.exploringthenorth.com...


www.jewellhistories.com...

info.detnews.com...




posted on Jul, 3 2005 @ 01:48 AM
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We Natives hold copper in much higher esteem than gold. This always mystified me until I studied medicine: copper can relieve arthritis, aid in adrenal health, and makes mighty fine arrowhead pressure flakers. And wiring. And batteries for electroplating. We wear copper jewelry, and traded ingots and finished goods for the last 10,000 years at least.

We being the Civilized Nations of the Hopewell/Adena complex.

The copper came down the river to Hopewell and elsewhere.

It is also said that we are under a sacred obligation to find and accumulate this particular metal for the use of Those Above. I am not at liberty to say more than that.

A lot of the artifacts have crumbled into blue-green dust after millenia.

Excellent post. You all can discover much by researching this topic...

[edit on 3-7-2005 by Chakotay]



posted on Jul, 6 2005 @ 12:50 AM
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Chakotay this ones for you.

When were the native peoples of America instructed to collect this copper? A few thousand years ago? You can't even tell us what the beings from above used the copper for or what they looked like?
That secret bridges the knowledge gap of how the ancient american civilizations got started thousands of years ago. Will the knowledge be released by 2012?

Are there ruins deep in the Caribbean?



posted on Jul, 6 2005 @ 10:06 AM
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Originally posted by lostinspace
When were the native peoples of America instructed to collect this copper? A few thousand years ago?

The evidence suggests that they were doing it more than a few thousand years ago. I don't see any definite dates, though.



You can't even tell us what the beings from above used the copper for or what they looked like?

Nobody's mentioned "beings from above." We do have examples of copper being used for ceremonial purposes (arrowheads, and lovely ornaments.) Trade routes wound for thousands of miles through the American continent and the copper could have wound up just about anywhere.


Will the knowledge be released by 2012?

No, though there will be thousands of charlatains with books coming out that year purporting to give the secret knowledge.


Are there ruins deep in the Caribbean?

Deep? No. There are some shallow-water things, however.



posted on Jul, 6 2005 @ 10:10 AM
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Why does it have to be an ancient mine? Native Americans were a very uneducated people and did not value copper in the high esteem Europeaners did.



posted on Jul, 11 2005 @ 12:26 PM
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Well, it takes copper to make Bronze and according to Frank Joseph, Editor in Chief at Ancient American Magazine and author of DESTRUCTION OF ATLANTIS, SURVIVORS OF ATLANTS, & THE ATLANTIS ENCYCLOPEDIA believes that the copper mined from Lake Superior was in fact mined by the culturally advanced city of Atlantis. When I say advanced, I don't mean by today's standards nor do I mean by aliens. Simply put, I mean by man during the "Bronze Age" that abruptly ended with the beginning of the "dark ages" around 1000 BCE, incidentally this coincides with the 900 BCE date of the Atlantean city's destruction, which also coincides with the Deluge, and a passing comet called Encke-Oljato.

Simply put, the copper was turned into bronze and used across the ancient world.



posted on Jul, 11 2005 @ 10:12 PM
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Originally posted by cleasterwood
Well, it takes copper to make Bronze and according to Frank Joseph, Editor in Chief at Ancient American Magazine and author of DESTRUCTION OF ATLANTIS, SURVIVORS OF ATLANTS, & THE ATLANTIS ENCYCLOPEDIA believes that the copper mined from Lake Superior was in fact mined by the culturally advanced city of Atlantis.

Whyever on earth would they want to do that?

Copper's a VERY abundant mineral. There's copper mines and ores and deposits all over the world. Unless "Atlantis" happened to be in the middle of Lake Michigan, I'm sure that wherever the mythical place was, it was a lot closer to REAL copper mines.



Simply put, I mean man during the "Bronze Age" that abruptly ended with the beginning of the "dark ages" around 1000 BCE, incidentally this coincides with the 900 BCE date of the Atlantean city's destruction, which also coincides with the Deluge, and a passing comet called Encke-Oljato.

One problem,there... by that time a lot of civilizations had writing. So how come there's no mention of Atlantis or importing copper at ridiculous costs from a land far away instead of getting it from local sources?


Simply put, the copper was turned into bronze and used across the ancient world.

I'm all for shaving this with Occam's razor: They didn't bother. They used copper and tin that were locally available.



posted on Jul, 12 2005 @ 08:26 AM
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I don't agree. The copper or orichalcum at Lake Superior was high grade which isn't as abundant. And the possibility of writing being spured by Atlantis comes from the first migration of people trying to escape the catastrophe around 3500 BC. , just when writing was 'miraculously' introduced to the ancient Egyptians. THe Taurid meteor shower comes twice a year, once in summer and once in fall. This shower along with the passing asteroid Encke-Oljato caused havoc on Earth each time it passed, starting around 3500 BCE with the first pass, the second pass about 1000 years later, and eventually dying out in the third and final destruction of Atlantis near 1000 BCE. This comet along with the Taurid meteor shower bombarded the world, (proven scientifically) and according to astrologers could have definitely caused the destruction worldwide. Every culture in the world relays the story of the Comet as a serpent from heaven or fire from heaven. This comet and the Taurid caused the end of Bronze Age. Also proven historically, astronomically, and geologically.

Besides, if you hop onto the stream via boat, it takes you directly to the eastern seaboard of America. It wasn't that difficult to get home eitheras it worked the same way coming home, so technically it wasn't that difficult at all.



posted on Jul, 12 2005 @ 03:07 PM
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I don't remember which threads, but I know in the UFO section it has been mentioned more than once that apparently, in advanced technology such as anti-gravity systems copper is much more valuable than we would currently believe.

Sorry to not be much help. I can't remember where this originally came from but I'm sure someone round here knows



posted on Jul, 12 2005 @ 06:27 PM
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Originally posted by cleasterwood
Well, it takes copper to make Bronze and according to Frank Joseph, Editor in Chief at Ancient American Magazine and author of DESTRUCTION OF ATLANTIS, SURVIVORS OF ATLANTS, & THE ATLANTIS ENCYCLOPEDIA believes that the copper mined from Lake Superior was in fact mined by the culturally advanced city of Atlantis. When I say advanced, I don't mean by today's standards nor do I mean by aliens. Simply put, I mean by man during the "Bronze Age" that abruptly ended with the beginning of the "dark ages" around 1000 BCE, incidentally this coincides with the 900 BCE date of the Atlantean city's destruction, which also coincides with the Deluge, and a passing comet called Encke-Oljato.

Simply put, the copper was turned into bronze and used across the ancient world.



Originally posted by cleasterwoodI don't agree. The copper or orichalcum at Lake Superior was high grade which isn't as abundant. And the possibility of writing being spured by Atlantis comes from the first migration of people trying to escape the catastrophe around 3500 BC. , just when writing was 'miraculously' introduced to the ancient Egyptians. THe Taurid meteor shower comes twice a year, once in summer and once in fall. This shower along with the passing asteroid Encke-Oljato caused havoc on Earth each time it passed, starting around 3500 BCE with the first pass, the second pass about 1000 years later, and eventually dying out in the third and final destruction of Atlantis near 1000 BCE. This comet along with the Taurid meteor shower bombarded the world, (proven scientifically) and according to astrologers could have definitely caused the destruction worldwide. Every culture in the world relays the story of the Comet as a serpent from heaven or fire from heaven. This comet and the Taurid caused the end of Bronze Age. Also proven historically, astronomically, and geologically.



Cleasterwood,

Which is it, 3500 BCE, 2500 BCE, 1000 BCE or 900 BCE? Considering the only source for the Atlantis myth is Plato, and Plato only told of one single destructive event, where do you get this information?

Also, Plato put the destruction of Atlantis at least 10,000 years ago. Why do you refute the date given by the only ancient mention of Atlantis that has ever existed? In 1000 BCE, civilizations were writing down what was going on. Howcome nobody recorded such devastation at the time? Why no archaeological record of it?

This is all so much BS. There never was anyplace called Atlantis until they built the resort in the Bahamas.

Harte



posted on Jul, 12 2005 @ 09:33 PM
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Originally posted by Frosty
Why does it have to be an ancient mine? Native Americans were a very uneducated people and did not value copper in the high esteem Europeaners did.


Why were the uneducated?

www.nativeamericans.com...

If you look it up, you'll find they did use copper and have done for a long time.

Who is really the uneducated one? You as per-normal.

Well done, you hate gays, call people from the Middle East, Paki's and now think Native Americans are uneducated.



posted on Jul, 13 2005 @ 08:36 AM
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Just to get back to the original question: we're talking about 500,000 t of copper!!!! That is an amazing amount! Does anyone here have any idea at all where it could have gone?



posted on Jul, 13 2005 @ 09:32 AM
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It's a lot but if it was over a significant time period it might not seem as much.



posted on Jul, 13 2005 @ 09:36 AM
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Originally posted by Harte

Originally posted by cleasterwood
Well, it takes copper to make Bronze and according to Frank Joseph, Editor in Chief at Ancient American Magazine and author of DESTRUCTION OF ATLANTIS, SURVIVORS OF ATLANTS, & THE ATLANTIS ENCYCLOPEDIA believes that the copper mined from Lake Superior was in fact mined by the culturally advanced city of Atlantis. When I say advanced, I don't mean by today's standards nor do I mean by aliens. Simply put, I mean by man during the "Bronze Age" that abruptly ended with the beginning of the "dark ages" around 1000 BCE, incidentally this coincides with the 900 BCE date of the Atlantean city's destruction, which also coincides with the Deluge, and a passing comet called Encke-Oljato.

Simply put, the copper was turned into bronze and used across the ancient world.



Originally posted by cleasterwoodI don't agree. The copper or orichalcum at Lake Superior was high grade which isn't as abundant. And the possibility of writing being spured by Atlantis comes from the first migration of people trying to escape the catastrophe around 3500 BC. , just when writing was 'miraculously' introduced to the ancient Egyptians. THe Taurid meteor shower comes twice a year, once in summer and once in fall. This shower along with the passing asteroid Encke-Oljato caused havoc on Earth each time it passed, starting around 3500 BCE with the first pass, the second pass about 1000 years later, and eventually dying out in the third and final destruction of Atlantis near 1000 BCE. This comet along with the Taurid meteor shower bombarded the world, (proven scientifically) and according to astrologers could have definitely caused the destruction worldwide. Every culture in the world relays the story of the Comet as a serpent from heaven or fire from heaven. This comet and the Taurid caused the end of Bronze Age. Also proven historically, astronomically, and geologically.



Cleasterwood,

Which is it, 3500 BCE, 2500 BCE, 1000 BCE or 900 BCE? Considering the only source for the Atlantis myth is Plato, and Plato only told of one single destructive event, where do you get this information?

Also, Plato put the destruction of Atlantis at least 10,000 years ago. Why do you refute the date given by the only ancient mention of Atlantis that has ever existed? In 1000 BCE, civilizations were writing down what was going on. Howcome nobody recorded such devastation at the time? Why no archaeological record of it?

This is all so much BS. There never was anyplace called Atlantis until they built the resort in the Bahamas.

Harte


Harte,
As full of it as you may think we are, you're wrong. What's your explanation then? And you can't read can you? Just because Plato talked of the last destruction doesn't at all mean there weren't three! As far as his 9000 year old date, that is explained in the fact that the priests who gave the story to Solon, didn't indicate what calendar they used for this dating. There were MANY CALENDARS in use by the Ancient Egyptians simulaneously. Lunar, Solar, genealogical, and stellar. All were employed during the FIRST dynasty! The priests made NO indication what so ever which calendar was used to record the story given to Solon.

SO THERE IS A ONE IN FOUR CHANCE THAT THE CALENDAR USED BY PRIESTS WAS THE LUNAR. By using lunar years, you arrive at a date near to the 900 BCE date. FIRST destruction 3500 BCE, second destruction 2500 BCE, and final destruction (which is recorded on Victory Temple of Ramses III) was between 1000 and 900 BCE. These dates may not all be recorded archaeologically but they are verifiable astronomically and geologically.

Also relevant is the fact that some time between 1000-900 BCE the 'dark ages' between the Bronze Age and the Classic Age began. Many cultures vanished without a trace, leaving cities abandoned, Egypt went into steep decline and never recovered. And across the Atlantic, new civilizations such as Maya and Aztec arose with tales of "White Men" who brought technology to the natives. You can try to explain it all away, but you can't deny the evidence scattered across the ENTIRE world.

According to Lars Franzen (Swedish physicist at University of Goeteborg) and Thomas B. Larsson (archaeologist of University of Umea):
During the Plenard Period, also recognized by climatologists, show above average, sudden rainfall around 1000 BCE in the Irish Oak bogs, and the 'sudden' drop of world temps and the population that dwindled to 1-10th of what it was a century before." They also locate the focus of the Bronze Age catastrophe in the vicinity of Atlantis itself. "We even suggest that relatively large asteroids or comets (c. 0.5 km diameter) hit somewhere near the eastern Atlantic, possibly at the shelf of the Atlantic west coast of Africa/Europe.. mainly affecting the Meditteranean parts of Africa and Europe, but also globally."

A mistake was made in translation but if you look to other calendars in use and other factors in use by the Egyptians, the answer is easily solved leading to a credible date for the final destruction.

Even the Myth of Menes, the first pharaoh to unite Egypt, talks of his 'dogs turned on him' and after asking a crocodile for help, being told "I will carry you away from harm for I prophesy you shall some day unite Egypt." Now metaphorically speaking the 'dogs' refered to various nomes of predynastic Egypt, symbolized by dogs, did indeed resist Menes who attempted to forge them into a united kingdom. It is also known that the crocodile was the totem of the Lower Nile nomarch who sided with Menes, and whose reward was the founding of Shedat (Crocodopolis) "The myth, repeated by Roman times, by then already dated back to more than 3000 years to just before the poilitical unification of the Nile Valley." Incidentally, Menes' origins and real identity are uncertain.
This isn't the only reference shrouded by mythology, metaphor, and allegory.

Deny Ignorance!

Kupios,
In regards to the copper mines, I needed to edit my post to expand my earlier posted thoughts.

From Destruction of Atlantis by Frank Joseph:
"The Menomonie Indians of the Upper Great Lakes Region believe the 'Marine Men' violated Mother Earth by digging into her flesh and stealing her copper bones. It was because of this awful violation that she punished them with a terrible flood."
To further support this 'A common theme to all tribes of the Upper Great Lakes Region (both US and Canada) is an ancestoral myth that is deeply revered as one of their most sacred oral traditions. It recounts a time when humans rose to greatness by living in harmony with God's law. But, after many years of abundance, they grew selfish, corrupt, and abusive of Earth's natural bounty. At the height of their debauchery, a 'bearded star' plummeted from the sky, falling into the Atlantic occean. 'All that was left of the humans' once powerful developed area was one vast sea,' which was whipped 'into a seething mass of waves.' VAriations are this tradition occur across N. America from Florida to the British Columbia."

Ocean currents could have easily taken them from their homeland to N. America via the Gulf Stream that runs for almost the length of the world.

WIKIPEDIA: The Gulf Stream, also known as the North Atlantic Drift, is a powerful, warm, and swift Atlantic ocean current that originates in the Gulf of Mexico, exits through the Strait of Florida, and follows the eastern coastlines of the United States and Newfoundland.The Gulf Stream is especially influential on the climate of the east coast of Florida, especially southeast Florida helping to keep temperatures warmer in the winter and less hot than the rest of the southeastern United States in summer. Its extension toward Europe, called the North Atlantic drift, makes West-European countries considerably warmer than they would be otherwise.

A river of sea water, called the North Equatorial Current, flows westward off the coast of northern Africa. When this current interacts with the northwestern coast of South America, the current forks into two branches. One passes into the Caribbean, while a second flows north and east of the West Indies. These two branches rejoin to pour through the Straits of Florida.

Consequently, the resulting Gulf Stream is one of the strongest ocean currents known, transporting 1.4 petawatts of power. It moves at an incredible rate of 30 million cubic meters per second. After it passes Cape Hatteras, this rate increases to 80 million cubic meters per second. The volume of the Gulf Stream easily dwarfs all rivers that empty into the Atlantic combined, which barely total 0.6 million cubic meters per second.

As it travels north, some of the warm water transported by the Gulf Stream evaporates. This increases the salinity of the water in the stream, and in the North Atlantic Ocean the water is so cold and dense with salt that it begins to sink. It then becomes a part of the North Atlantic Deep Water, a southgoing stream.

And as shown by the provided image, the stream branches off to go to several places around the world, making oceanic travel quite possible an relatively quick and easy to those who had command of the sea in ancient times.




[edit on 13-7-2005 by cleasterwood]



posted on Jul, 13 2005 @ 12:24 PM
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P.S. Make note of the split in the stream right near the area of the Straights of Gibralter before it enters the Meditteranean.



posted on Jul, 13 2005 @ 01:31 PM
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This was an interesting post. I did not know about the mounds or the indian cultures here...Thanks



posted on Jul, 14 2005 @ 12:38 PM
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Originally posted by cleasterwood
Harte,
As full of it as you may think we are, you're wrong. What's your explanation then? And you can't read can you? Just because Plato talked of the last destruction doesn't at all mean there weren't three! As far as his 9000 year old date, that is explained in the fact that the priests who gave the story to Solon, didn't indicate what calendar they used for this dating. There were MANY CALENDARS in use by the Ancient Egyptians simulaneously. Lunar, Solar, genealogical, and stellar. All were employed during the FIRST dynasty! The priests made NO indication what so ever which calendar was used to record the story given to Solon.


Cleasterwood,

I see. You have invented two other "destructions of Atlantis" out of thin air to bolster some strange view you have of ancient history. But you have injured the facts here, some by omission and some by mistating. I will assume you only parrot what you have heard and are not purposely attempting to mislead.

First, it needs to be said that there is no reason at all to believe that Solon heard any Atlantis story from any Egyptian priest anytime in his life. Solon (638-558 BC) is known to have begun his travels abroad to Egypt and other countries in the 560's , returning to Athens in the 550's BC. It would then be reasonable to say that if Solon did indeed hear the tale of Atlantis in Egypt, it happened sometime around 560 BC. Note to everyone: Solon was nota contemporary of Plato's.

On the Egyptian lunar calendar, this calendar never counted lunar cycles as years. This was a calendar that gave each lunar cycle 29 or 30 days, alternatively, and stipulated 12 lunar periods (months) per year. This is of course innaccurate and the Egyptian priests knew it. But every year the appearance of the star Sirius (Egyptians called it Sothis) in the sky was used to reset this calendar back to baseline. In other words, the lunar calender recorded years by counting lunar months and was automatically reset every actual year by the observation of the star Sirius. The calendar was later adopted for public use and adapted to a 30 day lunar month, with a five day religious festival tacked on at the end of the year, adding up to 365 days (1/4 day short of an actual year.) This calendar was the civil calendar of Egypt until Augustus introduced the leap year around 30 BC.

But nevermind, let us assume against all reason that the Egyptian calendar did count months as years. The Egyptians knew the lunar period was about 29.5 days (actually it is 29.5306 days) so they originally alternated 29 and 30 days in their calendars. We will use the 29.5 days per "lunar year" to try to calculate the year of what you term as the "final destruction of Atlantis.

From Plato's Timaeus and Critias we know that the Atlantean destruction occured 9,000 "years" (lunar, you say) before Solon's visit. Given 29.5 days in a lunar "year" (according to you) this places it approximately 305 solar years before Solon's visit, or approximately in the year 865 BC. This places the existence of Atlantis well within the time of existence of the Greek civilization (began around 1100 BC), yet no Greek records exist of these peoples? In fact, there exists no ancient records referring to Atlantis anywhere on Earth except in two of Plato's dialogues. How could this possibly be? The only way it could be is if Atlantis never existed, which is in fact the case.


Originally posted by cleasterwoodSO THERE IS A ONE IN FOUR CHANCE THAT THE CALENDAR USED BY PRIESTS WAS THE LUNAR. By using lunar years, you arrive at a date near to the 900 BCE date. FIRST destruction 3500 BCE, second destruction 2500 BCE, and final destruction (which is recorded on Victory Temple of Ramses III) was between 1000 and 900 BCE. These dates may not all be recorded archaeologically but they are verifiable astronomically and geologically.


I will absolutely concede that the geological record is littered with evidence of meteoric and cometary impacts of Earth. Some of these impacts no doubt influenced or destroyed civilizations in the past. Add to them the regular volcanic activity and we probably had several civilizations disappearing or dispersing every thousand years or so back in the old days. But I'll not let pass the underhanded sly reference you tried to squeeze in here about Ramses III and his victory in the second invasion of the "Sea Peoples."

You contend that there exists some record of the final destruction of Atlantis at what you call "RamsesIII Victory Temple" a place which does not exist. The temple that Ramses III built which commemorates his great victory over the sea peoples (among other victories) is his mortuary temple at Medinet Habu. The applicable writings at this temple actually list who the sea peoples were and that Ramses III defeated them:



This second attack of the Sea Peoples by land and sea occurred during the reign of Pharaoh Ramesses III, years five and eight, around 1175 B.C. The battle scenes and names of the invaders are recorded at Medinet Habu, near Thebes in Upper Egypt (Pritchard 1969, hereafter ANET, 262):
Other spelling/pronunciation
1. Pe-ra-sa-ta/ Peleset (Pw-r-s-ty) Philistine
2. Tjikar (T-k-k[-r]) Tjekker
3. Sa-k(a)-ru-su Sheklesh
4. Danuna (D-y-n-yw-n) Danaoi
5. Wasasa (W-s-s) Weshesh
The first on the list are the Philistines; the second are the Tjekker, who may have settled on Cyprus at the end of the thirteenth century B.C. and who later settled in Dor, south of Mount Carmel on the Palestinian coast, according to a late twelfth- and an eleventh-century b.c. Egyptian document; the third are also in the Merneptah list and are the only ones to be mentioned in two records; the fourth are the Homeric Danaans; and the fifth possibly are Carians of western Anatolia.3 All the Sea Peoples, according to Albright, came from the Aegean orbit (1975, 508). At Medinet Habu the Philistines and the names of the other Sea Peoples occur together, probably because the Egyptians knew them to be related geographically. The following words on the walls at Medinet Habu attest to the Sea People alliance:
. . The foreign countries made a conspiracy in their islands. All at once the lands were removed and scattered in the fray. No land could stand before their arms, from Hatti, Kode, Carchemish, Arzawa, and Alashiya on. . . . They were coming forward toward Egypt, while the flame was prepared before them. Their confederation was the Philistines, Tjeker, Shekelesh, Denye(n), and Weshesh, lands united. They laid their hands upon the lands as far as the circuit of the earth, their hearts confident and trusting: "Our plans will succeed!" [ANET, 262]

A long quote and I apologize. It's from HERE
Note the conspicuous absence of reference to Atlanteans here.
Interestingly, this battle commemorated at Ramses III's temple happened in 1175 BC, more than 300 years before your claim of the Atlantean destruction (by my calculations using the nonexistent "lunar year" of 29.5 days.)

Now I must point out a fatal contradiction. You use Plato for source on Atlantis, but ignore Plato at the same time. Plato, the only source on Atlantis, tells us that the Atlanteans were defeated by the Athenians, and the entire mediterreanean area was freed of the oppression of the Atlantean conquerors. Yet you claim that Ramses III defeated the Atlanteans and that their final destruction occurred during Ramses III reign, which ended around 1153 BC. If one wishes to believe in Atlantis, whatever the reason, I would think that one would at the very least begin by actually reading the Dialogues of Plato and possibly lend Plato, the only source on Atlantis, at least a little credibility in this matter.


Originally posted by cleasterwoodAlso relevant is the fact that some time between 1000-900 BCE the 'dark ages' between the Bronze Age and the Classic Age began. Many cultures vanished without a trace, leaving cities abandoned, Egypt went into steep decline and never recovered. And across the Atlantic, new civilizations such as Maya and Aztec arose with tales of "White Men" who brought technology to the natives. You can try to explain it all away, but you can't deny the evidence scattered across the ENTIRE world.


This is completely laughable. The Maya arose in mesoamerica in around 300 AD, 650 years after Plato died. The Aztec reference is even more ridiculous, since they began their civilization sometime after 1200 AD, almost a thousand years after the Mayans and more than 1500 years after Plato died. And while it may be true that after Ramses III the Egyptians suffered decline, saying they "never recovered" is going too far. They were overcome by the Nubians, the Assyrians, the Persians, and finally Alexander's armies, beginning the reign of the Ptolemaic kings. This period might not have lived up to your standards of finery, but I believe the Egyptians thought it was the good times come again.


Originally posted by cleasterwoodAccording to Lars Franzen (Swedish physicist at University of Goeteborg) and Thomas B. Larsson (archaeologist of University of Umea):
During the Plenard Period, also recognized by climatologists, show above average, sudden rainfall around 1000 BCE in the Irish Oak bogs, and the 'sudden' drop of world temps and the population that dwindled to 1-10th of what it was a century before." They also locate the focus of the Bronze Age catastrophe in the vicinity of Atlantis itself. "We even suggest that relatively large asteroids or comets (c. 0.5 km diameter) hit somewhere near the eastern Atlantic, possibly at the shelf of the Atlantic west coast of Africa/Europe.. mainly affecting the Meditteranean parts of Africa and Europe, but also globally."


As I said above, the Earth is littered with the remains of meteoric and cometary impacts. It is quite likely, but not unexpected, that Franzen and Larsson have discovered evidence of just such an impact. But so what? Also, I see you have quoted one of these researchers about the location of the impact. I wish you would include a link, or at least let us know who you are quoting here. How would i know you're not quoting Erik VonDaniken or some other charlatan about the location of this supposed impact? I can find no such statements by Franzen and Larsson using Google. It seems curious to me that these two men made no mention of possible impact sites when they presented their findings to the conference at Fitzwilliam College, Cambridge in July 1997 organized by The Society for Interdisciplinary Studies and entitled "Natural Catastrophes during Bronze Age Civilisations."


Originally posted by cleasterwoodEven the Myth of Menes, the first pharaoh to unite Egypt, talks of his 'dogs turned on him' and after asking a crocodile for help, being told "I will carry you away from harm for I prophesy you shall some day unite Egypt." Now metaphorically speaking the 'dogs' refered to various nomes of predynastic Egypt, symbolized by dogs, did indeed resist Menes who attempted to forge them into a united kingdom. It is also known that the crocodile was the totem of the Lower Nile nomarch who sided with Menes, and whose reward was the founding of Shedat (Crocodopolis) "The myth, repeated by Roman times, by then already dated back to more than 3000 years to just before the poilitical unification of the Nile Valley." Incidentally, Menes' origins and real identity are uncertain.
This isn't the only reference shrouded by mythology, metaphor, and allegory.


What has this to do with any part of your argument?

Give it up. Ancient Atlantis never existed. That does not mean that ancient civilizations have not risen and disappeared to remain unknown to this day. It means that none of these were known to Plato.

Harte
Edited screwed up bolding. H

[edit on 7/14/2005 by Harte]



posted on Jul, 15 2005 @ 09:18 AM
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Originally posted by Harte

Originally posted by cleasterwood
Harte,
As full of it as you may think we are, you're wrong. What's your explanation then? And you can't read can you? Just because Plato talked of the last destruction doesn't at all mean there weren't three! As far as his 9000 year old date, that is explained in the fact that the priests who gave the story to Solon, didn't indicate what calendar they used for this dating. There were MANY CALENDARS in use by the Ancient Egyptians simulaneously. Lunar, Solar, genealogical, and stellar. All were employed during the FIRST dynasty! The priests made NO indication what so ever which calendar was used to record the story given to Solon.


Cleasterwood,

I see. You have invented two other "destructions of Atlantis" out of thin air to bolster some strange view you have of ancient history. But you have injured the facts here, some by omission and some by mistating. I will assume you only parrot what you have heard and are not purposely attempting to mislead.

First, it needs to be said that there is no reason at all to believe that Solon heard any Atlantis story from any Egyptian priest anytime in his life. Solon (638-558 BC) is known to have begun his travels abroad to Egypt and other countries in the 560's , returning to Athens in the 550's BC. It would then be reasonable to say that if Solon did indeed hear the tale of Atlantis in Egypt, it happened sometime around 560 BC. Note to everyone: Solon was nota contemporary of Plato's.

On the Egyptian lunar calendar, this calendar never counted lunar cycles as years. This was a calendar that gave each lunar cycle 29 or 30 days, alternatively, and stipulated 12 lunar periods (months) per year. This is of course innaccurate and the Egyptian priests knew it. But every year the appearance of the star Sirius (Egyptians called it Sothis) in the sky was used to reset this calendar back to baseline. In other words, the lunar calender recorded years by counting lunar months and was automatically reset every actual year by the observation of the star Sirius. The calendar was later adopted for public use and adapted to a 30 day lunar month, with a five day religious festival tacked on at the end of the year, adding up to 365 days (1/4 day short of an actual year.) This calendar was the civil calendar of Egypt until Augustus introduced the leap year around 30 BC.

But nevermind, let us assume against all reason that the Egyptian calendar did count months as years. The Egyptians knew the lunar period was about 29.5 days (actually it is 29.5306 days) so they originally alternated 29 and 30 days in their calendars. They accepted 12 months per year.

From Plato's Timaeus and Critias we know that the Atlantean destruction occured 9,000 "years" (lunar, you say) before Solon's visit. Given 12 lunar "years" (according to you) in a solar year this places it approximately 750 solar years before Solon's visit, or approximately in the year 1310 BC. This places the existence of Atlantis well within the time of existence of the Minoans, the Sumerians, the Egyptians, the Babylonians, the Hittites and many others, yet there are no records among these other civilizations about the Atlanteans? In fact, there exists no ancient records referring to Atlantis anywhere on Earth except in two of Plato's dialogues. How could this possibly be? The only way it could be is if Atlantis never existed, which is in fact the case.


Originally posted by cleasterwoodSO THERE IS A ONE IN FOUR CHANCE THAT THE CALENDAR USED BY PRIESTS WAS THE LUNAR. By using lunar years, you arrive at a date near to the 900 BCE date. FIRST destruction 3500 BCE, second destruction 2500 BCE, and final destruction (which is recorded on Victory Temple of Ramses III) was between 1000 and 900 BCE. These dates may not all be recorded archaeologically but they are verifiable astronomically and geologically.


I must point out that by using what you call "lunar years" you most certainly do not arrive at "a date near to the 900 BCE date." I wonder how you arrived at this? I am thinking it is because you expected no one would actually do the calculation and this date best fits with your wild imaginings.

I will absolutely concede that the geological record is littered with evidence of meteoric and cometary impacts of Earth. Some of these impacts no doubt influenced or destroyed civilizations in the past. Add to them the regular volcanic activity and we probably had several civilizations disappearing or dispersing every thousand years or so back in the old days. But I'll not let pass the underhanded sly reference you tried to squeeze in here about Ramses III and his victory in the second invasion of the "Sea Peoples."

You contend that there exists some record of the final destruction of Atlantis at what you call "RamsesIII Victory Temple," a place which does not exist. The temple that Ramses III built which commemorates his great victory over the sea peoples (and his many other victories) is his mortuary temple at Medinet Habu. The applicable writings at this temple actually list who the sea peoples were and that Ramses III defeated them:



This second attack of the Sea Peoples by land and sea occurred during the reign of Pharaoh Ramesses III, years five and eight, around 1175 B.C. The battle scenes and names of the invaders are recorded at Medinet Habu, near Thebes in Upper Egypt (Pritchard 1969, hereafter ANET, 262):
Other spelling/pronunciation
1. Pe-ra-sa-ta/ Peleset (Pw-r-s-ty) Philistine
2. Tjikar (T-k-k[-r]) Tjekker
3. Sa-k(a)-ru-su Sheklesh
4. Danuna (D-y-n-yw-n) Danaoi
5. Wasasa (W-s-s) Weshesh
The first on the list are the Philistines; the second are the Tjekker, who may have settled on Cyprus at the end of the thirteenth century B.C. and who later settled in Dor, south of Mount Carmel on the Palestinian coast, according to a late twelfth- and an eleventh-century b.c. Egyptian document; the third are also in the Merneptah list and are the only ones to be mentioned in two records; the fourth are the Homeric Danaans; and the fifth possibly are Carians of western Anatolia.3 All the Sea Peoples, according to Albright, came from the Aegean orbit (1975, 508). At Medinet Habu the Philistines and the names of the other Sea Peoples occur together, probably because the Egyptians knew them to be related geographically. The following words on the walls at Medinet Habu attest to the Sea People alliance:
. . The foreign countries made a conspiracy in their islands. All at once the lands were removed and scattered in the fray. No land could stand before their arms, from Hatti, Kode, Carchemish, Arzawa, and Alashiya on. . . . They were coming forward toward Egypt, while the flame was prepared before them. Their confederation was the Philistines, Tjeker, Shekelesh, Denye(n), and Weshesh, lands united. They laid their hands upon the lands as far as the circuit of the earth, their hearts confident and trusting: "Our plans will succeed!" [ANET, 262]

A long quote and I apologize. It's from HERE

Note the conspicuous absence of reference to Atlanteans here.
Interestingly, this battle commemorated at Ramses III's temple happened in 1175 BC, more than 150 years after your claim of the Atlantean destruction (by my calculations using the nonexistent "lunar year" of 29.5 days.)

Now I must point out a fatal contradiction. You use Plato for source on Atlantis, but ignore Plato at the same time. Plato, the only source on Atlantis, tells us that the Atlanteans were defeated by the Athenians, and the entire Mediterreanean area was freed of the oppression of the Atlantean conquerors. Yet you claim that Ramses III defeated the Atlanteans and that their final destruction occurred during Ramses III reign, which ended around 1153 BC. If one wishes to believe in Atlantis, whatever the reason, I would think that one would at the very least begin by actually reading the Dialogues of Plato and possibly lend Plato, the only source on Atlantis, at least a little credibility in this matter.


Originally posted by cleasterwoodAlso relevant is the fact that some time between 1000-900 BCE the 'dark ages' between the Bronze Age and the Classic Age began. Many cultures vanished without a trace, leaving cities abandoned, Egypt went into steep decline and never recovered. And across the Atlantic, new civilizations such as Maya and Aztec arose with tales of "White Men" who brought technology to the natives. You can try to explain it all away, but you can't deny the evidence scattered across the ENTIRE world.


This is completely laughable. The Maya arose in mesoamerica in around 300 AD, 650 years after Plato died, and 1600 years after our calculated date of Atlantis' last days. The Aztec reference is even more ridiculous, since they began their civilization sometime after 1200 AD, almost a thousand years after the Mayans first appeared, more than 1500 years after Plato died and more than 2500 years after your stipulated fall of Atlantis. And while it may be true that after Ramses III the Egyptians suffered decline, saying they "never recovered" is going too far. They were overcome by the Nubians, the Assyrians, the Persians, and finally Alexander's armies, beginning the reign of the Ptolemaic kings. This period might not have lived up to your standards of finery, but I believe the Egyptians thought it was the good times come again.


Originally posted by cleasterwoodAccording to Lars Franzen (Swedish physicist at University of Goeteborg) and Thomas B. Larsson (archaeologist of University of Umea):
During the Plenard Period, also recognized by climatologists, show above average, sudden rainfall around 1000 BCE in the Irish Oak bogs, and the 'sudden' drop of world temps and the population that dwindled to 1-10th of what it was a century before." They also locate the focus of the Bronze Age catastrophe in the vicinity of Atlantis itself. "We even suggest that relatively large asteroids or comets (c. 0.5 km diameter) hit somewhere near the eastern Atlantic, possibly at the shelf of the Atlantic west coast of Africa/Europe.. mainly affecting the Meditteranean parts of Africa and Europe, but also globally."


As I said above, the Earth is littered with the remains of meteoric and cometary impacts. It is quite likely, but not unexpected, that Franzen and Larsson have discovered evidence of just such an impact. But so what? Also, I see you have quoted one of these researchers about the location of the impact. I wish you would include a link, or at least let us know who you are quoting here. How would i know you're not quoting Erik VonDaniken or some other charlatan about the location of this supposed impact? I can find no such statements by Franzen and Larsson using Google. It seems curious to me that these two men made no mention of possible impact sites when they presented their findings to the conference at Fitzwilliam College, Cambridge in July 1997 organized by The Society for Interdisciplinary Studies and entitled "Natural Catastrophes during Bronze Age Civilisations."


Originally posted by cleasterwoodEven the Myth of Menes, the first pharaoh to unite Egypt, talks of his 'dogs turned on him' and after asking a crocodile for help, being told "I will carry you away from harm for I prophesy you shall some day unite Egypt." Now metaphorically speaking the 'dogs' refered to various nomes of predynastic Egypt, symbolized by dogs, did indeed resist Menes who attempted to forge them into a united kingdom. It is also known that the crocodile was the totem of the Lower Nile nomarch who sided with Menes, and whose reward was the founding of Shedat (Crocodopolis) "The myth, repeated by Roman times, by then already dated back to more than 3000 years to just before the poilitical unification of the Nile Valley." Incidentally, Menes' origins and real identity are uncertain.
This isn't the only reference shrouded by mythology, metaphor, and allegory.


What has this to do with any part of your argument?

Give it up. Ancient Atlantis never existed. That does not mean that ancient civilizations have not risen and disappeared to remain unknown to this day. It means that none of these were known to Plato.

Harte
Edited screwed up bolding. H
Edited again to fix a stupid arithmetical mistake H
[edit on 7/14/2005 by Harte]



posted on Jul, 15 2005 @ 09:31 AM
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Sorry about the double post, guess I did the editing incorrectly or something.

Harte



posted on Jul, 16 2005 @ 07:31 AM
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First and foremost, these theories are NOT mine but compiled from various sources. You can deny them all you want, but the fact remains that this theory is becoming more and more accepted and can be verified in all the manners previously listed whether you agree with the conclusions or not.

Just because cultures talked about ATLANTIS, doesn't mean they all called it the same name. Still you can't explain away all the links between cultures around the world. You're simply a skeptic and I refuse to argue the point. And I have read both of Plato's texts, thoroughly I might add and on several ocassions. Mayans may have arose when you say, but their ancestors were there long before and it could have caused the rise of their civilization due to the "white man from across the Sunrise Sea."

There are many arguements for and against and I'm not inclining myself to continue arguing with you about something you don't believe in. You'll never believe in it and that's your right, but I do and I believe it can be proved. You're entitled to your opinion as am I.





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