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Creation Theory VS Evolution Theory... who is right?

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posted on Jul, 1 2005 @ 01:34 PM
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The first thing I would like to point out to anyone who joins this thread. I am not going to skip over your post if you post. I will read it and look at the links you provide. people have said in the past that I never read there posts or look into their links. well that is simply not true, and how would they know that i dont? they dont. I will read anything that you post. just try to keep the post small, because I will admit that I dont like reading long paragraphs. it reminds me of reading a book and the only book I actually enjoy reading is the Bible. Basic Instructions Before Leaving Earth. now I am trying to get familiar with this book because I have come to realize that I am going to be death for a long time. all of us are going to die one day, hopefully not all at the same time. that would not be cool. but when we die, we will be dead for a long time. George Wasdhington died over 200 years ago, and he is still dead.

secondly, I would like to tell you what I believe. I believe that the bible is the word of God. I believe every page in it and try to understand it from every point at which it could possible be viewed. and I try to live by it. I try to follow the 10 commandments to this day, im doing real well on some of them, not so good on the other ones but still trying to do my best.

Now there are four fundamental questions fo life that need answered, and are very important to us humans.

1. Who am I, and what am I worth?
2. Where did I come from?
3. What is the purpose of life?
4. Where am I going when I die?

now there are two ways to answer this question. and it depened on how you view the world.

Some people look at the world and say "its amazing that the big bang made this from nothing" this is called the humanist world view.
others say "the earth has an icredible design there must have been a designer" this is called a creationist world view.
These two views are at war with eachother.
now I would like to say that we can use this thread for a debate on this topic of we can just discuss things and share opinions and facts whatever is lead to, is what will be done.

if evolution is true, how do you answer those 4 questions?
well if evolution is true, here is what I answered...
1. im nothing important, just a piece of protoplasm that washed up on the beach. and im part of a problem because I am one of the pollutors of the environment, and the more of us they can get rid of the better.
2. we all came from a cosmic burp about 20 billion years ago.
3. there is no purpose to life, if it feels good, do it.
4. im going to the grave and being recycled into a worm or a plant. or maybe even oil.

now if there is anyone out there in support of creation. please let me know who you are. often in the past people confused me, one post they would seem to be on my side, and the next was the opposite.
so, if you would, tell us straight up what you believe in and what you are trying to support.

and if you would, I would like to see how anyone else answers those questions. so if you could answers them for me. that would be great.




posted on Jul, 1 2005 @ 02:21 PM
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When you last asked these same questions.. you added 'the answers will no doubt be negative'.. I answered them as an 'evolutionist'.. which was basically that I don't need to be 'special' to an imaginary being [faith] to have my existence validated [to which you didn't respond]. ..why is it.. after being given answers by evolutionists.. do you still insist our perceptions would be self depreciating and negative? Seems you didn't get the 'bad' [god didn't make us evolution did.. OH NO!! there is no plan and life has no purpose.. whats the point? I need hope.. I need salvation.. I need jesus.. I SEE THE LIGHT
] answers you wanted out of us.. so now you are providing the answers yourself instilling your own bias before we have a chance to answer.

So why bother asking at all?

[edit on 1-7-2005 by riley]



posted on Jul, 1 2005 @ 02:45 PM
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ok dude. first you accuse me of not reading your material, and it is obvious that you didnt read mine. I clearly stated that those are the answers from me. now I would like for you to answer the same questions. following the logic of the evolution theory.

if you havent noticed, I am starting the argument over in more "professional manner". and I even stated that I would read anything you posted. and I just read your whole post. you didnt read mine all the way. you are acting like you said I did. dont be like me if I am just a dumb creationist.

read the whole thing. I was straight up front about what I believe.
and if you want more detail on what I believe. I believe that the earth is less than 10,000 years old and that the universe was created about 6,000 years ago. at least thats what thew bible teaches.

now how about you stop being so ignorant and try to learn something.



posted on Jul, 1 2005 @ 02:50 PM
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and if you want to know. i once did believe in evolution. so dont tell me I dont know what I am talking about.... your theory is flawed. and if you want me to I will prove it to you.

oh and the reason I move on to a different topic, is becasue you all are not willing to give up the conversation. you make it look like I am changing the topic to avoid being wrong. this is not true.
its because you all are willingly ignorant and will not give up your side of the story. no need to beat a dead horse if its not going to run.

all you do is refer to the selected evidence you give me. which is sometimes true and also not ture at time.



posted on Jul, 1 2005 @ 05:11 PM
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Evolution is both fact and theory. Creationalism is neither.



posted on Jul, 1 2005 @ 06:23 PM
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Questions such as "what is the meaning of life" and "what am I worth" are loaded. Can you see that?

For me, it's quite simple. Life is for living. The best gift that existence could possibly give me is life itself. I do not seek to walk on golden streets for eternity, mostly because I require death for my life to be complete, and partly because descriptions of heaven don't excite interest in me.

I have a healthy self-esteem, and am loved by many people, and that brings worth and value to my daily existence. I enjoy several hobbies, which improve my character.

Also, I'm probably the most attractive person in Texas. That's right, ladies. Got your tickets?? To the GUN SHOW???

Zip



posted on Jul, 1 2005 @ 07:20 PM
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The best gift that existence could possibly give me is life itself. I do not seek to walk on golden streets for eternity, mostly because I require death for my life to be complete, and partly because descriptions of heaven don't excite interest in me.


well in order for it to be a gift, someone had to give it to you. who gave you life? mother earth? well if earth was a mother. than who is the father?

if you dont seek eternity, than what do you seek? because according to the bible, when I go to heaven, I will be amazed at what I see. and there are no words that can explain what heaven will be like. see heaven to you is probably just another life where its the same as here. pain, emotions, along with all the other things that can turn this world upsidedown.
but I dont know that for sure if thats what you think.

and you still didnt answer my question. what is the purpose to life?
if evolution is true, is there a purpose? meaning that we are here for a reason. if evolution is true, than there is no purpose to life. and if there was, how would you know?




Questions such as "what is the meaning of life" and "what am I worth" are loaded. Can you see that?


loaded with what? with the logic that makes evolution look dumb? yeah im sure it is. because when I ask you what is the purpose of life, you cant give an answer.

if evolution is true, there is no way you can tell right from wrong. survival of the fittest would be the way of life and it isnt.
if I wanted to take someones money I could, but I would get arrested and get charged with robbery. why? well first off. God doesnt like it. and second. the law doesnt like it. but how does the law know what is right and wrong? they dont. they got it from the bible. from the 10 comandments (not the 10 suggestions).
it says, thou shalt not steal.

now why would we adopt something like that if evolution is true?
if I want something i am going to get it and it doesnt matter if I kill someone because I am more fit to survive therfore I should be the one living.

see evolution is the theory that says that we came from a rock 4.6 billion years ago. but the only reason people deny it is because they dont want to defend that part. they want to try and defend mirco evolution, but you cant defend it if it doesnt need defending. micro evolution is scientific, however I object to that term. because it is deceitful. you get a kid to believe in micro evolution and trick him into believing that the whole theory has been proven.

The big bang is a big dud. it never happened. it violates the laws of nature.



posted on Jul, 1 2005 @ 07:52 PM
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Originally posted by expert999
well in order for it to be a gift, someone had to give it to you. who gave you life? mother earth? well if earth was a mother. than who is the father?


Nope. Ever heard of existentialism?


Originally posted by expert999
if you dont seek eternity, than what do you seek?


Betterment. Not "after I die," which is an oxymoron, but right here, right now. Next Tuesday. Next year.


Originally posted by expert999
and you still didnt answer my question. what is the purpose to life?


I have answered the question "what does life mean to you?"

I find it a far better question than "what is the purpose of life?"

The quesetion "what is the purpose / meaning of life" is much like asking "what is the purpose of bleeeeezzzzzgghhrf" or "what is the meaning of a cup of coffee?" To me.


Originally posted by expert999
if evolution is true, is there a purpose? meaning that we are here for a reason.


You keep giving me the impression that without your Biblical view of life, nothing but despondency and hopelessness awaits. Well, a large portion of the world disagrees with this notion, and the sooner you understand that, the sooner you will be able to overcome your fears and open your mind to an extra-Biblical reality - even if you continue to choose the Bible as your guide. You believe that morals came from God, and I think that such an idea is absolutely without merit or basis.


Originally posted by expert999
if evolution is true, than there is no purpose to life. and if there was, how would you know?


I cannot answer these questions for you any more than I can answer the question "what does expert999 want to do next August?" These questions are for you to answer. You would probably do well to separate your questions about life and eternity from questions about evolutionary theory, to begin. Untwist these ideas in your mind and you might learn something.


Originally posted by expert999


Questions such as "what is the meaning of life" and "what am I worth" are loaded. Can you see that?


loaded with what? with the logic that makes evolution look dumb? yeah im sure it is. because when I ask you what is the purpose of life, you cant give an answer.


I disagree with the question. If you keep insisting on asking it, I will answer it thusly - "everything and nothing."


Originally posted by expert999
if evolution is true, there is no way you can tell right from wrong. survival of the fittest would be the way of life and it isnt.


Your logic is misguided. Again you are entangling philosophical ponderances with scientific processes incorrectly. Why do you associate evolution with morality so strongly? It's as though you are taking shortcuts to thinking things through, and I cannot help you with that.


Originally posted by expert999
if I wanted to take someones money I could, but I would get arrested and get charged with robbery. why?


I have told you this BEFORE, with NO ANSWER from you, so please don't make me say it again after this.

You don't want to be murdered. You don't want your children to be murdered. Your neighbour doesn't either. You band together and form a societal understanding that any murderers will be punished by the non-murderers. It's not that #ing complicated. Morality is based on selfishness, not Godliness.


Originally posted by expert999
how does the law know what is right and wrong? they dont. they got it from the bible. from the 10 comandments (not the 10 suggestions).
it says, thou shalt not steal.


If you say so. Hammurabi's code preceeded Jewish tradition.


Yet even with this earliest set of laws, as with most things Babylonian, we find ourselves dealing with the end of things rather than the beginnings. Hammurabi's code was not really the earliest. The preceding sets of laws have disappeared, but we have found several traces of them, and Hammurabi's own code clearly implies their existence. He is but reorganizing a legal system long established.


As stated, it was based on even earlier man-made laws, based on ethics, morality, and justice.


Originally posted by expert999
now why would we adopt something like that if evolution is true?
if I want something i am going to get it and it doesnt matter if I kill someone because I am more fit to survive therfore I should be the one living.


Look at it this way: it is more conducive for you to follow the law if you want to survive. The debate about nature versus nurture in relation to criminal behaviour is ongoing, though, and a lot of work has been done in that area. If you're interested in it, and you seem to be, you should check it out.


Originally posted by expert999
see evolution is the theory that says that we came from a rock 4.6 billion years ago. but the only reason people deny it is because they dont want to defend that part. they want to try and defend mirco evolution, but you cant defend it if it doesnt need defending. micro evolution is scientific, however I object to that term. because it is deceitful. you get a kid to believe in micro evolution and trick him into believing that the whole theory has been proven.


The intent is not to deceive, as opposed to "Intelligent Design" supporters. Anyways, it's about semantics. You are all hung up on us "coming from a rock" and evolution lacking morality and life "having" a "purpose" and whatnot. I can't get you to think differently, but for starters, I think you should stop simplifying things ("we came from a rock") and you may appreciate such ideas more.


Originally posted by expert999
The big bang is a big dud. it never happened. it violates the laws of nature.


So does "speaking" things into existence.

Zip



posted on Jul, 1 2005 @ 10:26 PM
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The intent is not to deceive, as opposed to "Intelligent Design" supporters. Anyways, it's about semantics. You are all hung up on us "coming from a rock" and evolution lacking morality and life "having" a "purpose" and whatnot. I can't get you to think differently, but for starters, I think you should stop simplifying things ("we came from a rock") and you may appreciate such ideas more.


ok if we didnt come froma rock then were did we come from? in order to get life on earth, you have to get the earth here first...




The big bang is a big dud. it never happened. it violates the laws of nature. So does "speaking" things into existence.


so who is right? Since God is all powerful, he can do it. like I said before, he is not limited by time, space or matter so he can do anything he wants, however he wants. in evolution there is no God. since humans are the most intelligent (not meaning smartest) beings as far as we know we must be gods.

so what you are telling me, we make up our own reason for being here. we are not here for a purpose. I didnt ask what life meant to you. I asked, what is the pupose of life? you know that most things if not everything has a purpose. there is a purpose for plants, they are a self-replicating food source. there are pruposes for everything else. but what about humans? I mean we are the ones destroying the earth. how did we get that smart? howcome there isnt a different type of organism that can learn and write and do the things humans can to?




Look at it this way: it is more conducive for you to follow the law if you want to survive.


anyone with a half of brain knows that. the part you didnt get, was: WHERE DO YOU GET THE LAW FROM? HOW DO YOU KNOW STEALING IS WRONG?
because you did say:


Morality is based on selfishness, not Godliness.


if it is based on selfishness than there really is no way to tell right from wrong. there is no right from wrong. that means that everyone has a different "standard" and there is no way to tell right from wrong.




You don't want to be murdered. You don't want your children to be murdered. Your neighbour doesn't either. You band together and form a societal understanding that any murderers will be punished by the non-murderers.

but who is to say that murder is wrong? what if I thought that murder was right? majority opinion doesnt cut it either, we saw that what hitler did was wrong, and everyone in his group agreed with him.

so since this is a new thread, you really should share your answers so everyone can see what you think the PURPOSE of life is. but you dont answer it probably because you A. dont have an answer or B. the answer you give wont be very good. or C. its negative and sounds bad

like I said before. I used to believe in evolution, I used to think that the earth was billions of years old. I used to believe half of the lies that htey use iin textbooks. until I sat down and looked at my bible and looked at the textbooks and the whole evolution theory, and said to myself. one of these is wrong...

and one of them is wrong. you definately cannot prove the bible wrong. and it never has been proven wrong.

I have another question since you wont answer the others....
how is it that us humans are the most intelligent life form on earth? how come there isnt eanything better than us?





Existentialism attempts to describe our desire to make rational decisions despite existing in an irrational universe. Unfortunately, life might be without inherent meaning (existential atheists) or it might be without a meaning we can understand (existential theists). Either way, the human desires for logic and immortality are futile. We are forced to define our own meanings, knowing they might be temporary. In this existence…this is from
www.tameri.com...


right there where it mentions atheists, that shows that without having a god, thereis no purpose to life. because atheists believe that there is no god.




Existentialism attempts to describe our desire to make rational decisions despite existing in an irrational universe.

first this doesnt tell us where we get our standards from. and second, second the universe is not irrational. but the rest of the universe is meant to telling time [date, year, month]
even the bible tells this. and I dont know if you watch tv much, but on the histroy channel, there was a device found that was used for monitoring the stars and planets, it was a analog computing device. something that not even we understand today. that just shows that evolution is not true. something manmade found and we dont understand it? but I though humans were evolving and becoming better and smarter.


www.economist.com...
here is some sites on it. its story is different than what it was on tv. I guess the media has its tricks. www.mlahanas.de...



posted on Jul, 1 2005 @ 11:15 PM
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I don't think he's saying that we didn't 'come from a rock' Expert. He's telling you to stop using phrases such as 'cosmic burp' and 'came from a rock' because they are negative phrases and keep you from seeing that it's possible to find beauty in science.



how is it that us humans are the most intelligent life form on earth? how come there isnt eanything better than us?


I don't see how this question backs us evolutionists into a corner. There's a simple answer to this: we evolved into humans and became the most intelligent species on the planet. Intelligence for us apes became a deciding factor in our survival, and through the principle of Survival of the Fittest, the most intelligent apes survived to reproduce. If the need exists as strongly for other animals as it did for us humans, they will probably evolve to become more intelligent as well. There's nothing more intelligent than us because we evolved this intelligence first.



if it is based on selfishness than there really is no way to tell right from wrong. there is no right from wrong. that means that everyone has a different "standard" and there is no way to tell right from wrong.


You're simplifying again Expert. Just because I kill someone to get ahead in life doesn't mean I don't know that it's wrong. We're all selfish to some extent, it's in our nature because our ancestors needed to be selfish in order to survive. Who is more likely to survive: a person who takes more resources for himself without regard for others' well-being, or the person who passively sits back and lets it happen? In the past, this trait helped our ancestors survive, and it's ingrained in all of us because we came from those selfish people/apes. You can look at any aspect of our society and see the word 'selfish' written all over it...yet we still have laws, morality, justice. There may be no such thing as "altruism", and our whole Capitalist society may be based on selfishness (the desire to get ahead of everyone else and use them in the process) but we know right from wrong.

Different standards can still exists alongside morality. Everyone has a different standard yet we can have a moral society. How then do we know right from wrong? It's not from the 10 Commandments, it's because of the majority. You can say "that doesn't cut it" but it does. Are you saying this because you are trying to stop someone from answering your question? The majority of people agreed that murder was wrong and that it be punished a certain way. They agreed that rape was wrong, that stealing was less of a bad act than that...etc. Some people might disagree but tough luck. They are the minority and have to live with the laws laid down by the majority.



we saw that what hitler did was wrong, and everyone in his group agreed with him.


As for Hitler, you are missing some major details. First, you've got to realize that not everyone supported Hitler. Many thought that what he was doing was wrong but didn't act out because they were afraid of dying. My own Grandmother was in Hitler's Youth. She vehemently opposed his ways, but stayed there because she was afraid of opposing him. She also admits that there were many people that opposed his ways. What I'm saying is not just opinion. You've also got to consider the amount of propaganda that was being spread. "Nationalism" was forced down everyone's throats, they were constantly fed lies about the Jews and the rest of the world, and worked for him in his campaign to take over the world and eliminate Jews because of the "foot in the door phenomenon" or because they only had small parts to play like the assemblage of weapons. Whats the big deal with making a bomb they might ask themselves...after all, they aren't directly killing someone. "Foot in the Door" can be explained simply: A person is first asked to commit a small evil act, nothing big. They agree, and perform that task. They are next asked to perform a slightly greater evil. Well, they already did that last evil thing, what's a little something more? This repeats itself until they are doing something like leading the Jews into the gas chambers.

Actions also shape attitudes. If a person does something against their will, because they face death if they oppose it, they will be under great mental stress. They are doing something that they know is wrong, but cannot stop doing it. How do they cope with this stress? They try to justify it. "The jews deserve this....it's their fault I'm doing this in the first place". This is a very common psychological phenomenon and a defense mechanism of some sort.



you definately cannot prove the bible wrong. and it never has been proven wrong.


Yup, that's totally right Expert. It can't be proven wrong. But does that mean that it's right? Of course not. Just because I say that aliens from the 12th dimension that only I can see are causing global warming doesn't mean that it's true. It can't be proven wrong because only I can see them, but it's not true. Its the same thing with the Bible. You can't see God, or disprove his existence so you can't disprove the notion that he created the Earth in 6 days, and humans as well. Science says that it would take a certain time for the planet to cool, archeological evidence shows that humans were around more than 6000 years ago as verified by carbon dating, and there are countless oter things that science illustrates and gives evidence for. You can't disprove the Bible really, but I'd definately prefer to believe in something that makes logical sense and can be backed up with proof, than something that is flawed, written by men, rewritten over time for our selfish needs and unable to be proven.

[edit on 1-7-2005 by zhangmaster]



posted on Jul, 1 2005 @ 11:32 PM
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Simple, nobody is right. If there is a true explanation for how or why we are here...we can never know it, not in this life. Science as well as people's beliefs are all distorted truths, and we should not try to explain existence with theories that are all open to human error. Possibly after death on a higher plane of existence it can be understood or shown to us...but it can't be taught. Find your own meaning, don't look to others for explaining what can't be explained. It can only be found inside.



posted on Jul, 1 2005 @ 11:59 PM
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Originally posted by Shoktek
Simple, nobody is right. If there is a true explanation for how or why we are here...we can never know it, not in this life. Science as well as people's beliefs are all distorted truths, and we should not try to explain existence with theories that are all open to human error. Possibly after death on a higher plane of existence it can be understood or shown to us...but it can't be taught. Find your own meaning, don't look to others for explaining what can't be explained. It can only be found inside.


Ah, again somebody lumps "how" and "why," this time with a twist. You think we should not try to explain existence? What should we do, ignore science and become dumber?

I again contend that the phrase "after death" is an oxymoron. People who talk about things happening "after death" do not understand the concept of death, and should probably take some time out to do some serious thinking about mortality. Expecting something to happen "after death" is immature escapism, in my opinion. (I'd like to stress that this is my broad opinion and by no means an attack on any individual or group of people.) I think that teaching people that "death" is a transitory state is dangerous, and it gives people excuses to not live up to their full potentials in life, as well as allowing for suicide bombings and the like.

Zip



posted on Jul, 2 2005 @ 12:07 AM
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Originally posted by Zipdot
Ah, again somebody lumps "how" and "why," this time with a twist. You think we should not try to explain existence? What should we do, ignore science and become dumber?


Alright then. Go ahead and "explain existence" with science. But hey, death is the end of everything anyway, so explaining existence would be pointless as you die in the end...and you will be dead before you can begin to explain existence with science anyway. But really, go ahead and look for whatever is out there that will explain us. Report back when you found the answer.


And I'm not one of those people who does certain things because I'm afraid from my religion, or waiting for the "golden gates of heaven". But from my own experiences just "living life" so far, I know that there is more to life and death than what we see on the surface.

[edit on 2-7-2005 by Shoktek]



posted on Jul, 2 2005 @ 12:20 AM
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Originally posted by expert999
ok if we didnt come froma rock then were did we come from? in order to get life on earth, you have to get the earth here first...


If it makes it easier for you, instead of thinking "we came from a rock," think, "we came from soup."


Originally posted by expert999
since humans are the most intelligent (not meaning smartest) beings as far as we know we must be gods.


That is quite a leap of logic. It's a special kind of logic, actually. A logical fallacy. Please review this page.


Originally posted by expert999
I asked, what is the pupose of life?


I feel that I have explained my reaction to such a question comprehensively, and I think you should give me credit for my answer rather than blowing it off.


Originally posted by expert999


Look at it this way: it is more conducive for you to follow the law if you want to survive.


anyone with a half of brain knows that. the part you didnt get, was: WHERE DO YOU GET THE LAW FROM? HOW DO YOU KNOW STEALING IS WRONG?


I told you. What have you to say about Hammurabi's code, which predates Moses' commandments by over 600 years and is based on older writings? With our brains, we can make determinations, and as such, we have developed our own system of morality based on our own reactions to crime. I told you that such reactions are based on selfishness.

I don't want to be robbed, I don't want to be murdered, I don't want anyone in my family to be robbed or murdered. You are a farmer next door, and we discuss this and agree on it, thereby sealing a pact to punish those who would do harm to use in such a way. Next damn thing ya know, the leader of our group is making such things official. It's a simple progression and far from divinely inspired.


Originally posted by expert999
if it is based on selfishness than there really is no way to tell right from wrong. there is no right from wrong. that means that everyone has a different "standard" and there is no way to tell right from wrong.


Godless heathens all over the place have had moral systems from the beginning of civilization. It is undeniable, and really one of the weaker points of "creationist" contentions ("without God we wouldn't know right from wrong.")


Originally posted by expert999
so since this is a new thread, you really should share your answers so everyone can see what you think the PURPOSE of life is. but you dont answer it probably because you A. dont have an answer or B. the answer you give wont be very good. or C. its negative and sounds bad

right there where it mentions atheists, that shows that without having a god, thereis no purpose to life. because atheists believe that there is no god.


What's the difference? What is the purpose of YOUR Christian life, if you don't mind me asking?


Originally posted by expert999
even the bible tells this. and I dont know if you watch tv much,


I don't, but DAMN am I hooked on "Lost."



Originally posted by expert999
but on the histroy channel, there was a device found that was used for monitoring the stars and planets, it was a analog computing device. something that not even we understand today. that just shows that evolution is not true. something manmade found and we dont understand it? but I though humans were evolving and becoming better and smarter.


Uh, I don't understand how you think this is related. We don't know a lot of things about ancient man, but that's not stopping us from studying. Take Stonehenge, the Nazca Lines, etc., as examples. We don't fully understand them, but it's not because we're ignoramuses.

Zip



posted on Jul, 2 2005 @ 12:31 AM
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Originally posted by Zipdot
I think that teaching people that "death" is a transitory state is dangerous, and it gives people excuses to not live up to their full potentials in life, as well as allowing for suicide bombings and the like.


But teaching that death is "the end" makes life meaningless and causes people to adopt the exact same attitude towards life. Either way you are going to have some people out there who just don't care about themselves or others, regardless of what they believe. I would consider myself spiritual but I never go to church, and I don't really subscribe to any religion. Because I believe that most religions are based on truth...but the "truth" or as close as they came to explaining it away with religion became distorted over the years because of human interpretation and desire to use religion as a device for control...I live my life for me and for my fellow man kind, and not to meet the expectations of some higher power and earn my way into heaven. Although I still do believe in a higher existence, and a spiritual existence after the body dies. I was a complete existentialist up until I had certain experiences that convinced me of what I "know" now. Which is why I say that you should find meaning for yourself and in yourself, whatever it may be.

[edit on 2-7-2005 by Shoktek]



posted on Jul, 2 2005 @ 12:34 AM
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Originally posted by Shoktek
Alright then. Go ahead and "explain existence" with science.


As I stated previously, you have "how" and "why" mixed up. Science can tell us how things happen. Science will not answer your "why" questions, if they are valid.


Originally posted by Shoktek
But hey, death is the end of everything anyway, so explaining existence would be pointless as you die in the end...


I don't think so, but if this is how you feel, then I suppose this is kind of a "different strokes" type of situation.


Originally posted by Shoktek
and you will be dead before you can begin to explain existence with science anyway.


Yes, particularly because science doesn't attempt to explain philosophical matters.


Originally posted by Shoktek
But really, go ahead and look for whatever is out there that will explain us. Report back when you found the answer.



You got it, boss.



Originally posted by Shoktek
And I'm not one of those people who does certain things because I'm afraid from my religion, or waiting for the "golden gates of heaven". But from my own experiences just "living life" so far, I know that there is more to life and death than what we see on the surface.


Most of the world agrees with you. Most of the world is not Christian.

Zip



posted on Jul, 2 2005 @ 12:41 AM
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Originally posted by Shoktek
But teaching that death is "the end"


I really just have to interject here, and say "it is, by its definition." It's not me that's telling you that death is the end. Don't blame me for the natural processes of life.


Originally posted by Shoktek
But teaching that death is "the end" makes life meaningless and causes people to adopt the exact same attitude towards life.


Empirical data disagrees with you. Atheists by and large live enjoyable lives and don't wake up one day, run out the door, and commit heinous crimes just because they don't believe in God.

In contrast, religious fanatics have been known to do just that.


Originally posted by Shoktek
Either way you are going to have some people out there who just don't care about themselves or others, regardless of what they believe. I would consider myself spiritual but I never go to church, and I don't really subscribe to any religion. Because I believe that most religions are based on truth...but the "truth" or as close as they came to explaining it away with religion became distorted over the years because of human interpretation and desire to use religion as a device for control...


I just want to reiterate that it is absolutely insulting to say that atheists lack morality, drive, compassion, or understanding.

Zip



posted on Jul, 2 2005 @ 12:54 AM
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Originally posted by Zipdot
I really just have to interject here, and say "it is, by its definition." It's not me that's telling you that death is the end. Don't blame me for the natural processes of life.


You know what I meant...death of the physical body, and the belief that a spirit exists and will live on after the body.



Empirical data disagrees with you. Atheists by and large live enjoyable lives and don't wake up one day, run out the door, and commit heinous crimes just because they don't believe in God.

In contrast, religious fanatics have been known to do just that.


Still, you have people on each side who fall into the category. And I'm sure there are more religious fanatics that go and commit crimes. That is because these people are completely controlled by their "beliefs" which are really set rules made up by other people. These are not people who find spiritual meaning for themselves.



I just want to reiterate that it is absolutely insulting to say that atheists lack morality, drive, compassion, or understanding.


Umm...when did I say this? All I'm really trying to say is that there are always going to be people out there who lack consideration for themselves or others. I have no problem with Atheists, and I never said or even implied that beliefs define your morality, drive, compassion, and understanding. All I'm really trying to say is to think for yourself, and if you follow a religion, fine, if you follow your own spiritual beliefs, fine, if you don't believe in anything, fine. Religion has nothing to do with morality or any of the other traits you mentioned....other than that there are people out there who try to dictate those traits to you in the name of religion. Which is why I don't believe in it, I have my own beliefs. And if you are an atheist, that's still a belief, and it's something you found for yourself, which is good...I don't know how you think I am trying to insult anyone who doesn't believe in God or religion.




posted on Jul, 2 2005 @ 02:09 AM
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.
Creationism is a belief and not a theory.
Theories are propositions open to challenge.
Creationism is a certainty to those who believe and dogma to those who don't.
Creationism was not created to satisfy the constraints of actual physical evidence.

Many people who believe in creationism, believe that what they believe matters more than simply as the director of their behaviors. That they are being observed internally and judged thereby.

Purely rational people realize[believe?] that belief has no direct impact on the Universe, only externalized actions based on those beliefs do.

People who think God or something is looking inside your mind and judging your every internal thought are experiencing a form of paranoia.
It becomes a kind of mental burden/prison.

I feel badly for those who have that burden, but don't try to forcibly infect others with that paranoia.
On the other hand, Some who have this mental condition feel a need to infect other people who don't have it, and just like AIDs i don't want or need your disease.

Many on the Religious Right are like this.
They demand that others be burdened with their mental affliction.

Genuine odd thought: I wonder if it could be an actual virus or something? Wouldn't that be wierd? You could run a medical diagnosis to see who was infected or not.

The more i think about it the more Religious fanatics remind me of that old movie "Invasion of the Body Snatchers" where the infected work to infect everyone who isn't. Especially when they seem so illogically/unduely excited to force everyone to believe as they do.
.



posted on Jul, 2 2005 @ 12:29 PM
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I feel that I have explained my reaction to such a question comprehensively, and I think you should give me credit for my answer rather than blowing it off.


what exactly was your answer? because I cant seem to find it in this thread. if you could re-post it that would be great.




If it makes it easier for you, instead of thinking "we came from a rock," think, "we came from soup."


well where did the soup come from? since evolution is so scientific, where did the soup come from?




I told you. What have you to say about Hammurabi's code, which predates Moses' commandments by over 600 years and is based on older writings? With our brains, we can make determinations, and as such, we have developed our own system of morality based on our own reactions to crime. I told you that such reactions are based on selfishness.


how do they know that those codes are older?




Science can tell us how things happen. Science will not answer your "why" questions, if they are valid.


science can only show you how things happen sometimes. if you know all of the factors. so science does not know what was in the beginning. they dont know if it was dirt or if it was gas. or if it was both. they dont know if it took billions of years for everything to form. they dont see anything new forming. the first law of thermal dynamics says that "matter/energy cannot be created or destroyed" that is one law that contradicts the evolution theory.
the 2nd law of thermal dynamics states "that everything tends to disorder"
and you cannot overcome the 2nd law by adding energy unless you have an intelligent force to utilize the energy.






And I'm not one of those people who does certain things because I'm afraid from my religion, or waiting for the "golden gates of heaven". But from my own experiences just "living life" so far, I know that there is more to life and death than what we see on the surface.


yes most of the world may agree, even I agree. and I am a christian. but doesnt that kinda make you think? you now that there is more to life and death than what we see on the surface, what is under the surface? what is beyond what our eyes can see? what if its right here? dude I dopnt know how you can make that statement without really thinking about it. just take a step back and think about that....
most of the world is not christian, I could agree, but the other half is not all evolutionists, or atheists, or people who believe that we came from soup.
and let me point out something. just because the pope says that he believe in evolution, doesnt mean he is right, actually he is going against his own religion by announcing that.





Creationism is a belief and not a theory.


so what are you really trying to point out is that evolution is a theory because you have to BELIEVE that a big bang occured. yeah im sure that creationism is a RELIGION tied in with the rest of the bible, so that makes it part of the christian religion. but since alot of the evolution theory is based on assumption and is BELIEVE to have happened, I think that can be counted as a belief as well. because you dont know how we got here. you assume that certain things happened. you assume that there was a big bang.

my point is, if there was a big bang, and we are actually an accident, then there is no way to tell right from wrong. just becuase everyone agrees that something is right or something is wrong, does not make it so.
many people think that abortion is ok. they think that its not wrong. does that make it right? many people think that it is wrong. does that make it wrong?

I dont believe I saw a link to those codes you were talking about, but if you do have a link for those codes I would like to see it.

anyways, this thread is for debating creation vs evolution. lets not get too off topic.




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