ID Cards For or Against

Right then, with the news that British Government Wins ID Card Vote (ATSNN) I thought it apt that we see whether ID cards have any support on the boards or whether people simply don’t want them.
Simply say whether your FOR or AGAINST and why.

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I am against ID cards, I see them as a waste of money and man-power that could be better used to fund the police and anti-terrorism.
The frightening amount of personal information stored on the cards makes me worried also (link)
I believe the ID cards could be what the Poll tax was to the Conservatives, I also believe people will strongly resist the implementation of them.

Interesting topic for debate Wizard.

I'm open about this. Plenty of countries have ID cards of some description, especially European ones, and I don't see the sky falling in with them.

I have heard a lot of stories lately about the absolute nightmare of identity theft and the 'biometric' part of these cards might well be necessary more and more to help protect us from this growing problem.

Actually it's my belief that it won't be the gov 'driving this', in any practical day to day sense, but instead it will be private business/industry who will see the 'biometric' part of this as a method of properly identifying those whom they are dealing with and will insist on credible ID more and more.
For most of us that will mean these cards when they arrive and they will be a huge step forward in the verification of correct identity in most cases, regardless of any other arguements, IMO.

As for the money?
My understanding is (recent - denied - scare stories apart) that it will cost around the same as a passport and driving licence together and therefore seeing as it apparantly can combine these two items (and more) it won't be any great noticeable additional expense or waste of money for most of us.

It might also be that with correct ID being insisted upon and used the country saves a hell of a lot of money in the reduction in fraud this might bring with it.

I really don't see what there is to be scared about; if you were really going to worry about the volume of personal data various people/organisations/ companies hold on us we would have complained about it long ago. It strikes me as a bit late for worrying about that......I also find it interesting that some people will give all sorts of private details in business surveys etc etc but mention a gov scheme and they get all coy!

I do think that to characterise this as having no value at all in Police work or anti-terrorism is simplistic and incorrect.
The point IMO about these cards is that they can 'lay trails' (even if they are forged) or be genuine ones used at points to lay trails and which later can be used by the Police to prove activity or location etc.

Lastly I don't think this compares at all with the 'Poll Tax'.
That's the kind of shallow rhetoric (some, not all) tories will use just hoping it might turn out that way and soften the stigma of them having imposed the Poll Tax in the first place!
It's more than a little rich, IMO, and obviously so.

We have yet to see any of the implementation details and there is a long way for this bill to go through Parliament and the various stages yet so such talk is premature to say the least.


[edit on 29-6-2005 by sminkeypinkey]

Sminkey,

I here what you are saying about ID cards and agree in principle that they are pretty innocuos. To start with.

The problem is not on initial implentation but 5 or 10 years from now.

I like the fact that I can wander the highways and byeways and as long as I am not committing a crime I do not have to prove who I am.

Card such as these could be used in the future to track the movements in real time of everyone in the country. So what you might say, if you have nothing to hide you have nothing to fear. Really? What business is it of anyones where I go.

These cards are the thin end of the wedge.

Today - passport and driving licence
Tomorrow - bank details, credit history, credit rating, DNA details.

I have a passport and drivers licence. Have never lost them. So why should I payout to replace them? Government wants me to for ease of access for them, then provide them free of charge.

What about those of us who have no need or desire for either a passport or driver's licence, why should they need to get an ID card?

Cheers

BHR

Originally posted by BillHicksRules
The problem is not on initial implentation but 5 or 10 years from now.

- I can see where you are coming from on this too but the detail is far from defined (ok, a little 'double edged' I know but on the one hand people can't claim x anymore than I can claim y about it right now).

I do think that we can surely arrive at a sensible solution as the rest of much of Europe has though.

Various comments have already been made in Parliament that they will not be a requirement to have on your person at all times......a cop won't be able to just walk up to you and demand to see your papers, for instance.
It has a long way to go until it is through the Parliamentary process - and no doubt some legal defining too - but I am not seeing a repressive intent at the moment at all.

I like the fact that I can wander the highways and byeways and as long as I am not committing a crime I do not have to prove who I am.

- Yes, I agree that is a nice principle.
But I suspect it is some time since you were last stopped by the Police in the UK.
They can already stop and then detain you (if they have what they would call reasonable grounds for suspicion......not quite the old 'suss'' laws but close enough) and demand that you prove who you are.

I know that is rare for many but I don't see why the situation would change so markedly with ID cards - especially if it is not a legal requirement that we carry our cards at all times.

Card such as these could be used in the future to track the movements in real time of everyone in the country. So what you might say, if you have nothing to hide you have nothing to fear. Really? What business is it of anyones where I go.

These cards are the thin end of the wedge.

Today - passport and driving licence
Tomorrow - bank details, credit history, credit rating, DNA details.

- Well IMO that scenario is already here with the cards we carry you have already mentioned. A simple tracking of a person's bank card would track many or maybe a security door card for work or a log of mobile phone or net activity!

I must admit I know what you are saying is the theory but IMO there are just too many of us to be tracked like that.
The issue will be if they decide to investigate you the details will probably be somewhere to check back on.....but what is so different about that possibility with ID cards and now?

I have a passport and drivers licence. Have never lost them. So why should I payout to replace them?

- OK, but you do pay to renew your passport (and as I have just done mine it's nearly 1/2 the projected cost of these things).

The driving licence is different, fair enough.
But if you lived in Northern Ireland you'd be renewing and paying for a new driving licence (with photograph) every 10yrs.
(The NI DL is a paper licence as with the rest of the UK - valid for 10yrs at a time - with a plastic photocard)
It's an easy principle to extend to the rest of the UK and could be demonstrated as nothing to do with ID cards, *ahem* , if you see what I mean.

Government wants me to for ease of access for them, then provide them free of charge.

- That would be my preference too.

What about those of us who have no need or desire for either a passport or driver's licence, why should they need to get an ID card?

- Well this is the debate society here has to have.

It appears a lot of people look around at other civillised European countries with ID cards and don't see the liberty arguement there and can also relate to the UK's own wartime experience with them and see they may well help in combating crime/ terrorism.

I also think we are set to see identity theft grow as an issue and the public may even begin to demand these as a measure against that.

I'm not friend of any kind of snooping state (IMO the UK already goes overboard on that) but as I said whilst I am open to be convinced about these cards I really am not seeing a great deal uniquely against them right now and I can see some, IMO, very sound reasons for having them.

Here in the states I am absolutely opposed to a national ID card.

It is a police state measure.

We have drivers licenses issued by each state. As long as laws are enforced, there is no real need.

Originally posted by EastCoastKid
It is a police state measure.

- I know that is the standard theory ECK but you're surely not claiming France, Germany, Spain etc etc are "police states" are you?

IMO they can be as benign or as scary as people want to make them, I just don't agree that our starting position should be that the intent for introducing them is always and necessarily a bad one.

Can US Police demand a person identify themselves?
Do you not also have a version of the suspicion laws and have cops who can just lift you and take you to the station and ascertain who you are there?

[edit on 30-6-2005 by sminkeypinkey]

Originally posted by sminkeypinkey
- I know that is the standard theory ECK but you're surely not claiming France, Germany, Spain etc etc are "police states" are you?

This is what I said:

Here in the states I am absolutely opposed to a national ID card.

Here in the states. I can only speak on the USA in this matter. If you think a national ID is good for your country, how can I argue that? I don't live there.

Can US Police demand a person identify themselves?

Absolutely. Whenever they want to. You do have the right to tell him/her to bugger off, but in the end, that would be biting off more than you can chew.

Do you not also have a version of the suspicion laws and have cops who can just lift you and take you to the station and ascertain who you are there?

They can (under the Patriot Act) if you are being looked at for terror-related crimes.

Sminkey,

It has a long way to go until it is through the Parliamentary process - and no doubt some legal defining too - but I am not seeing a repressive intent at the moment at all.

Call me an old cynic (and I am only 33) but one never sees the repressive intent until it is too late. They are not going to show us the downside till after we all have them.

They can already stop and then detain you (if they have what they would call reasonable grounds for suspicion......not quite the old 'suss'' laws but close enough) and demand that you prove who you are.

I know that is rare for many but I don't see why the situation would change so markedly with ID cards - especially if it is not a legal requirement that we carry our cards at all times.

If we have to prove who we are now when challenged and we will not be required to carry the ID card at all times once it is introduced why bother with it at all from this point of view? (I am not being pedantic I just find this strange)

Well IMO that scenario is already here with the cards we carry you have already mentioned. A simple tracking of a person's bank card would track many or maybe a security door card for work or a log of mobile phone or net activity

This I agree with but these are things we take a choice on doing. An ID card will be a requirement for us all eventually. I know a few people who have no credit card, mobile phone, passport, driver’s licence and in one case, not even a bank account. They do not appear on “the grid” as such. Those in charge of us do not like people like this. I know it sounds like paranoia.

Cheers

BHR

Originally posted by BillHicksRules
one never sees the repressive intent until it is too late. They are not going to show us the downside till after we all have them.

- OK, I'll agree that can be true in respect of your first comment (although I am far from convinced that this UK gov has that intent in this case) but as for your second surely that is the point of the debate?
Those for will say why and those against ditto, it'll roll through Parliament and a decision - along with a host of amendments - will be made.

......and even if/when it has been passed through Parliament the public reaction and debate may be such that it is changed radically or discarded later.

If we have to prove who we are now when challenged and we will not be required to carry the ID card at all times once it is introduced why bother with it at all from this point of view? (I am not being pedantic I just find this strange)

- I think this is because the cards are about a lot more than just the old 'stop and search' cliché.

There are several good points for having these things (anti-terrorist activity and anti-crime measures etc being just some) but I suspect the prime one will be a growing demand from commerce that we be able to reliably identify ourselves.

Proving your own identity is becoming a big issue; anyone who has ever had their identity 'stolen' and suffered the consequences of that knows this is a very serious business.

This I agree with but these are things we take a choice on doing.

- That I can't agree is any more than a technicality BHR, I might freely choose a product but I don't expressly chose to be (potentially) monitored like that, nor have my details sent around between various private companies (from which they may generate income).

An ID card will be a requirement for us all eventually.

- I'm sure this will be so one day myself.

Like I said I expect the real motivation for any large-scale day to day use to come from the private sector who will increasingly demand they are produced to combat fraud (and I can also see them increasingly demanded to protect companies against the possibility of litigation in some instances) and not actually the gov, regardless of them introducing them.

I know a few people who have no credit card, mobile phone, passport, driver’s licence and in one case, not even a bank account. They do not appear on “the grid” as such. Those in charge of us do not like people like this.

- I agree.
But since when was our society really ever run to take account of those at the margins and so untypical of most?

I know it sounds like paranoia.

- Naaa, not really.
Just cos you're paranoid doesn't mean the bast.... etc etc

Along with national ID cards, I hate the idea of finger print and optical scans. If someone wanted to use your identity for something (and I know this is far-fetched in most cases), they'd just cut your finger off or gouge your eye out. Sweet. (Anybody read the DaVinci Code? That very thing happened innit.)

Originally posted by EastCoastKid
If someone wanted to use your identity for something (and I know this is far-fetched in most cases), they'd just cut your finger off or gouge your eye out.

- I'll give up my finger and eye when they prise them from my cold dead.......oh.

(Anybody read the DaVinci Code? That very thing happened innit.)

- Ah well ECK, case proven and closed mate, if it's in this Da Vinci Code that's it!

Originally posted by sminkeypinkey

- Ah well ECK, case proven and closed mate, if it's in this Da Vinci Code that's it!

Just pointing to the example. Dan Brown isn't nearly as well informed as he thinks he is. I also think its incredibly silly that people give him so much attention. It's a book! FICTION! mediocre at best.

Here in the US we already have a national ID card. It's called the social security card.

What? You think it's not a national ID? Try getting a decent job without supplying one. No, it doesn't have pictures, prints, or biometric stuff, but all that will be justified by the increasing threat (real or created) of identity theft and under that trendy catchall phrase "security".

No, the thought of National ID cards doesn't bother me anymore than any of the other ways we are controled and cataloged. I've had my national ID card for 40 years.

Whoa. I am not in the UK but if I was would have to say I would be against them only for the type of information they will contain per the posters link. The concept of a national ID has also been going on in the US with mixed feelings as well. If they were to contain basic information that is now readly available from multiple sources and streamline the process to one national ID that would be fine. But from the looks of what your cards will contain it could really open up some serious problems. Good luck.

Originally posted by sminkeypinkey
- Yes, I agree that is a nice principle.
But I suspect it is some time since you were last stopped by the Police in the UK.
They can already stop and then detain you (if they have what they would call reasonable grounds for suspicion......not quite the old 'suss'' laws but close enough) and demand that you prove who you are.

I myself get stopped almost weekly. Something to do with the way I look and my friends look.

Now under Sections 1-7 of PACE the Police have a right to Stop and Search anyone in a "Public Place". This also extends to areas such as Pub Gardens, Car Parks and even Private Gardens. However the Police Officer must give his "name" and "station" as well as the "reason" you were stopped. Shown in Osman v DPP in 1999.

You also have other acts such as the Misuse of Drugs Act 1971 and Terrorism Act 2000 which allow them to stop people, however as long as you are on the Electoral Register, know your own name, address and date of birth they can't detainee you any further unless you have committed a crime. So these cards won't make it any easier on the Police.

Now to look at how it will help us?

I still have yet to see a real way in which it will. If a company wishes to employ someone they can easily do such thing without a "card" which we have to "carry" with us at all times. It is possible for a database to be set-up, with our fingerprints, etc, which they can check against when we go for a job without the need of an ID card. If anything we should be glad to live in a Nation where we don't have to "proove" who we are unless we are doing something wrong. This is one of the best parts of being British.

Only those who are guilty, get treated like it.