Germany's Awesome Power.

So you're telling me that the people that immigrate into your country haven't contributed ANYTHING good to it. Only the natural born British people have done anything.

Yes, I DO believe that immigrants make us stronger. I've seen people that weren't even citizens yet, doing great things here. Do you know how many people have received postumous citizenship here in the US, because they went out and gave their lives in the military? They came to this country and wanted to do something as thanks for us taking them in. Immigrants are the backbone of the US society.

But by all means, let's not let anyone who is different into our countries. We should all only accept people that think the same way we do and think the same way we do. Anybody different is automatcially bad and shouldn't be trusted or allowed in. Oh wait, they tried that already. I think it was called Nazi Germany.

let me try this again..since it seems to be a point you overlooked in your debate points.

Mark Gabriel converted Muslim Imam Holder of a Phd. in Islamic studies from Al Ahazar University in Cairo, Egypt where many of the more radical clerics and Islamic students have been trained or taught.
His book "Islam and terror" Definition of the "Sword" or the Sword of Islam. "May the Sword of Islam rest upon the neck of the Infidel."

for the record ..this is not the same as Northern Ireland.
By the way ..on Northern Ireland..I know what I am looking at when I see Orangemen marching through town with their tophats white gloves and heavy chained medallions hanging off thier tuxedos. Its not protestantism they are celebrating. Same with Sean Finn and others going back to the Peep O'day boys back as far as the late 1600s. These things are not what they seem to the public.

The problem in Algeria does not have to do with the french today..it has to do with the Muslims and Islam. The muslims learned a certain lifestyle under the French this is true. When the muslims got voted in in elections ..they began to instill muslim practices ..true muslim practices for which the Algerians did not take well. With the next election the Muslims were voted out and they decided they were not going and had a entitlement to their will on Algeria. Hence open warfare and the violence in the streets. The more radical muslim factions decided they were going to force their way in spite of election results. This is the very nature of this danger among those who take the more radical face of what is true Islam. As Mark Gabriel points out ...real true Islam is Jihad against the infidels. Anyone not converting to Islam will pay a heavy tax or be killed.
Not what one hears on the evening news or in our educational institutions about a religion of Peace.
It has gone so far in some communities to where as the muslim populations increase they have taken a stand against Christian symbolism in graveyards as offensive in this country. Very downplayed by the media.


Whenever I try to debate with one of these muslims ..all I have to do is ask for clarification of what the Sword of Islam means. The conversation switchs to a religion of Peace and then breaks down quickly.

Thanks,
Orangetom

Originally posted by Uk_United
tell me about it. No country in history has gone through what they have. It's amazing what those Germans have done!!

Absolutely, lots of great accomplishments!
1) Started world war I, resulting in the deaths of 15 Million!
2) Introduced chemical warfare to the world!
2) Started world war II, resulting in the death of upwards of 41 Million people!
3) First to systematically eradicate Jews since the Romans!
4) Destroyed London!

You are right! It really is amazing what those Germans have done!!

Did I say immigrants didn't contribute anything? Did you even read the scenario? I'm not gonna argue with you you stated that if I'm talking about not letting any foreign relions and customs into the country even though in my most recent posts I clearly stated that I was talking about restricting immigration in general not just ethnics!!!! You have brought up the same points over and over again and obviously haven't read my posts thouroughly.

USA didn't get involved in WW-II until 1942 and by then the war was half over and the Soviets had stopped the nazies and locked them into a war of attrition they could not easly win or get out off. Thus the germans were fixed, it only remained for the western alliance to recover from its thrashing in 1940 and establish a second front to topple the germans. So when the USA entered the war, the worse phase of the war was definately over.

AS long as the USA/Commonwealth could keep USSR supplied with money and LL, the USSR would tied the germans down and slowly march back across Europe to defeat Hitler. Funny thing is that politics of the 1930s hoped to have a strong germany to prevent the soviets from doing exactly what we wanted them to do 10 years later.


Be careful what you wish for, you may get it!

[edit on 1-7-2005 by psteel]

Wow, you ought to actually read a few history books before posting such stupid, uninformed drivel. In 1942 the war was half over all right, Russia and England were about to go under. If the winter hadn't been so bad, the Germans would have rolled right over the ill-equipped Russian army. If the U.S. had not entered at that point, it would have been over with most of Europe and Africa under German domination. Luckily, the second half didn't go as Hitler planned.

If we don't restrict Immigration , and I'm not talking about restricting ethnics, I'[m talking about immigration in general. Then European countires will become swamped with a close division of beleifs and cultures that will cripple society not advance it.

I read your posts. But once again, I'm obviously wrong because I disagree with you. Restricting immigration is a bad idea. It's just going to create more hatred and problems in the long run. What do you think is going to happen if we suddenly lock down our borders and say "Sorry, you can't come in anymore. We have lots of space, but we're reserving it for our people." It's going to piss off everyone who wants to go to your country to get away from their situation. Or your argument, "Oh, sorry, you can't come in. If we let you in then we might have to move to another country, because you will take over the neighborhood." No matter if it's against every group, or one specific group it's going to have the same effect, and cause serious problems in the long run.

What do you think is going to happen if we suddenly lock down our borders and say "Sorry, you can't come in anymore. We have lots of space, but we're reserving it for our people."

Are you serious? "We have lots of space!!" Now come on! You are saying European countries have lots of space? Your'e saying countries like England have alot of space, Germany has alot of space? I don't think so mate! Just another reason to reduce immigration! You also state "lock down our borders" since when do we not let anyone come in? Restrict doesn't mean totally block out. Please choose your words more carefully before you try to put words in my mouth.

Yuk !
That Countries Third Rich was total nonsense and was the cause for millions of unnecessary deaths of both Jews and Soldiers.

If there ever could be another (fourth rich) just giv-em 24 hrs to evacuate and drop the bomb on'm.

Surprised that a member of ATS would bring up a subject of Ger WWII and seem to express their strength.

Dallas

Originally posted by CaptAvatar
Absolutely, lots of great accomplishments!
1) Started world war I, resulting in the deaths of 15 Million!

Austria-Hungary started the first World War. The later Versailles treaty claim that Germany is solely to be held responsible is regarded wrong nowadays.

2) Introduced chemical warfare to the world!

The first use of chemical weapons was found in the stone age, people used poisoned weapons. The first recorded use of gas weapons happened in the Peloponnesian wars in the 5th century BC and in China in the 4th century BC. The first to use chemical weapons in World war I were the french in the battle of Ypern.

2) Started world war II, resulting in the death of upwards of 41 Million people!

Thats correct.

3) First to systematically eradicate Jews since the Romans!

Lets not forget the Spanish inquisition under Torquemada, the Bohdan Chmielnicki massacres in the Ukraine and the russian pogroms under tsars Alexander III and Nicholas II, only to name those that were done in a systemetical fashion.

4) Destroyed London! [...]

They didnt destroy London. They damaged it. AFAIK the last time a significant part of London was destroyed was in 1666 in the great fire. For comparison (remember that London was much larger in 1940 than it was in 1666).

Originally posted by Dallas

[...] Surprised that a member of ATS would bring up a subject of Ger WWII and seem to express their strength.

Dallas

Maybe you should read the first post again. This is not a thread about World War 2. Its about Germanies ability to accomplish things that several other countries couldnt, which also and especially extends after the wars.. Plain and simple.

Originally posted by Lonestar24

Originally posted by CaptAvatar
Absolutely, lots of great accomplishments!
1) Started world war I, resulting in the deaths of 15 Million!

Austria-Hungary started the first World War. The later Versailles treaty claim that Germany is solely to be held responsible is regarded wrong nowadays.

"start" doesnt mean "is guilty for", or "caused"....

Here are so many who just beleave everything bad was caused by germans....

dumbasses, I dont see where germany did more "bad" stuff than any other european nation...

hey, THANKS for that CONSTRUCTIVE post Wodan. So, you're saying that every European nation killed 6 million Jews, plus disabled, plus gypsys.

Originally posted by Zaphod58
hey, THANKS for that CONSTRUCTIVE post Wodan. So, you're saying that every European nation killed 6 million Jews, plus disabled, plus gypsys.

so you say that cuz the others didnt do that special thing, the stuff they did is less bad?

russian gulags?
british/french/spanish/dutch/belgian crap in their colonies?
italian stuff in the roman empire time?
etc.

Firstly, I would like to thank you all for a well written, thought provoking thread. It is noit often that people express in simplistic terms what they 'truly' feel but alas, there are a number of errors regarding the US involvment in WWI and WWII.

Firstly the US President (Wilson, was it) in WWI was reluctant to committ US forces to a 'European' conflict because, at the time, as has been stated before, the US had fingers in both pies - as had we Brits. It was politically unsound for the US to enter the war because they - like many countries around the world, were experiencing problems at home. It also made no sense militarily to fight what many in Congress understood to be a 'foreign' war.

As to Germany not being a great military superpower, I would like to remind you of the incredible battles that took place in a little French town called Verdun, during WWI.

For those of you who do not know, this is where the Germans almost bled the French Army dry. By that I mean that the French lost approximately 750,000 dead and wounded. The nearest battles I can think of to display the utter futility and stupidity and waste of lives in WWI are, Pickets Charge at Gettysburg and the bitter and atrocious fighting at Stalingrad - and by this I mean the cost of the dead and wounded.

It was such a 'near thing' for the French - releived somewhat by a hastey Brit push on the Somme - that after the war, they built this mausoleum to comemerate their dead. Verdun is a terrible place!

What's left of the forts, the endless rows of pristine white crosses, the 3 glassed front viewing domes, each containing nothing but bones of the dead - just heaped on each other - each measuring about fifty meters - actually reduced me to tears. My family lost 5 sons in WWI - no saving private St Clare or Freeman there! AND WE BRITS HAD TO PAY FRANCE 'RENT' @ 2 PENCE A DAY FOR THE TRENCHES WE USED! Top that!

Remember the Axis Alliance was Germany, Japan and Italy. I seriously doubt that had Hitler NOT declared war on the US, following Pearl Harbour - more of a moral boost for the Japanese, then America would have kept out of the war in Europe because, in my opinion, they had their hands full in the Far East.

Lend/Lease? Please don't make me laugh! America forced both France and England to pay through the nose, give up many of their colonies and the support given to Russia, eventually cost the Russians Alaska!

One interesting little fact that I read sometime ago in the Imperial War Museum in London, that the US purchased diamonds from the Germans through a third country in return for the advanced bomb sight (Berden?) used in the Super Forts.

Is Germany a great military power today? Not in this former Trog's view. But think on this: Germany has, as has been said earlier in this thread, defeated the mighty Roman Empire - no mean feat. Germany has fought and lost WWI and WWII and has risen phoenix-like from the ashes of Dresden, Hamberg and Berlin. Germany has rearmed herself, built some of the advanced manufacturing facilities anywhere in the world and has some of the best soldiers in the world.

Now, some 60 odd years after the end of WWII, Germany finds herself (yet again!) beginning to spiral down into the very conditions that led Hitler to invade most of Europe - mass unemployment, a failling economy, a disgruntled population, an unpopular government and an influx of cheap labour from the rest of the former East Germany.

Perhaps that is why Germay is seeking to create a European 'Super State' to rival the US and the Far East. After all, wasn't that what Hitler wanted?

Our lend/lease to Russia cost them Alaska? I enjoyed some of what you read, but at least TRY to get your history right.

" On March 30, 1867, Secretary of State William H. Seward signed an agreement with Baron Edouard Stoeckl, the Russian Minister to the United States. The agreement, widely referred to as "Seward's Folly" (and "Seward's Icebox") ceded possession of the vast territory of Alaska to the United States for the sum of $7.2 million. Few citizens of the U. S. could fathom what possible use or interest the 586,000 square miles of land would have for their country. In a speech given at Sitka on August 12, 1868, however, Secretary Seward claimed he did not doubt "that the political society to be constituted here, first as a Territory, and ultimately as a state or many States, will prove a worthy constituency of the Republic."1 President Andrew Johnson sent General Jefferson C. Davis to command a military force of about 500 men to maintain peace and order, and expected that Congress would establish the civil organization of the territory."

Zaphod - so sorry, I was thinking of something else at the time I wrote that. My only excuse is that I'm old and grey and my eyes are dim and I cannot see! Am loosing my marbles (if I ever had any!) LOL

I’m sorry but I cant resist, If any county has France as their next door neighbor then in a war France would make them look good to. We can’t marvel at Germanys achievements over France because well its the French what else can you expect. Does anyone here recall the battle of Agincourt.


[edit on 3-7-2005 by WestPoint23]

Originally posted by WestPoint23
[...] Does anyone here recall the battle of Agincourt.

...which was greatly exaggerated for almost 600 years to build a myth around Henry V.

Hey Lonestar - this was most definately not an exageration. English (well actually Welsh made) Longbows decimated the aristocracy and the cream of French noble knights.

Guess that's why the Apache has been named the 'Longbow' - 'cause it reachs the parts other other choppers can't!

My recollection of conditions before the start of hostilities in WW1 has to do with treaty obligations. As I recall so many of the involved nations had treaty obligations that stated if such and such a nation was attacked by two or more nations ..this signatory to the treaty was under obligation to come to the aid of the nation attacked..etc etc etc. This set the stage for a domino effect in military obligations. Just as do all these treatys today. After the death of the Archduke and his wife...one nation after another fell in line to meet its obligations though not all were keen on it. All these plans we spoke of in earlier posts Plan 17, Schlieffen plan, etc etc just fell into place before stagnating in the trenchs.
My recollection of the war was that Germany was holding her own against the "Allies " until America entered late in the war and it slowly turned the other way.
The Treaty at Versailles was a joke on Wilson's 14 points under which the Germans laid down their arms and chose peace. Wilson lost tremendous face over what happened at the treaty as the Allies demanded very harsh terms from Germany ..gauranteeing another war. Lloyd George was to say .."We have signed the document to gaurantee war in twenty years."
The terms of the treaty and harsh reperations gauranteed the rise of a new German Leader If not Adolph it would have been someone far worse.
There was much double dealing at the treaty.
WW2 became a continuance of the greviences of Germany from WW1.
It is my opinion that Germany was "urban renewed" and by war and lead down the path to a new set of owners and profiteers who rebuilt the nation at public expense under the Marshall Plan. Urban renewed with the help of the norden bombsight on bomber/bulldozers. They now had the best trained labor force who would work for pennies on the dollar. New propertys too. You now take the Generals out of prison and put them in the new factories as branch managers ..they do have the managerial experience. Same thing happened in Japan. Same thing happened in Korea. The groundwork and down payment was made for the new development areas.
However when costs began to rise these same investors/generals...General Motors, General Foods , General Dynamics et al began to abandon thier investments and look for new places to invest. Today this place is Communist China. It seems to have the greatest potential. Cheap diciplined labor.
REmember too..it was western nations which made huge loans to Germany between wars to rebuild her industries after the horrendous inflation of the 1920s allowing Gemany to Industrialize and build her war machine. Same thing happened with Japan. Japan did not build all those aircraft carriers, submarines, and airplanes on her own know how. My point is ....is the same thing happening with Communist China today.?? Will we see a rerun of this history format.?? China ...like Germany today ..one of their biggest needs is energy. Where will they go to get it?? What will this bode for the future.?

Thanks,
Orangetom