As you know, recently the debate of Creationism vs. Darwinism (evolutionism) has heated up. People have taken sides, and schools are under constant pressure to stop teaching evolution or to put warning labels on textbooks claiming that evolution is just a theory. Although this is only one of many religious debates taking place in America, many feel that it is the most important thing in the country.

What I want to know is WHY???

Why couldn't God have set evolution into play and guided it along? Is it not a possibility that the claim that the world was created in 6 days in Genesis is a metaphor for the creation of the universe, solar system, and life? That seems like a reasonable and very likely median.

Most importantly, isn't it "un-Christian" to go at each other's necks and feel so much hate like this? It's kinda disappointing to see this every day...it's pretty sad...


Let me stress that I am Christian and believe firmly in God, so don't say that I'm denying the existance of Him, because I'm not. You, however, are welcome and have a right to have your own beliefs.


What do you think about this?

[edit on 6/28/05 by ShreddedIce]

I'm christian and I believe that God guided alogn evolution and the creation of the universe but one thing has always intrigued me. If god created everything, What was around before god?

Originally posted by ShreddedIce
As you know, recently the debate of Creationism vs. Darwinism (evolutionism) has heated up. People have taken sides, and schools are under constant pressure to stop teaching evolution or to put warning labels on textbooks claiming that evolution is just a theory. Although this is only one of many religious debates taking place in America, many feel that it is the most important thing in the country.

What I want to know is WHY???

Why couldn't God have set evolution into play and guided it along? Is it not a possibility that the claim that the world was created in 6 days in Genesis is a metaphor for the creation of the universe, solar system, and life? That seems like a reasonable and very likely median.

Most importantly, isn't it "un-Christian" to go at each other's necks and feel so much hate like this? It's kinda disappointing to see this every day...it's pretty sad...


Let me stress that I am Christian and believe firmly in God, so don't say that I'm denying the existance of Him, because I'm not. You, however, are welcome and have a right to have your own beliefs.


What do you think about this?

[edit on 6/28/05 by ShreddedIce]

Un-Christian eh? You must remember, that since you are a Christian that we are not all of a sudden something incredibly special and that we'll become perfect all of a sudden. We still have our flaws and we will have these flaws until the day we face judgement. The difference between us as Christians and non-Christians is that we have acknowledged Christ as our saviour.

Anyway, about Creationism v Darwinism, the only think I'd like to point out is that the main arguments people from both sides are not great. Christians use the Bible as backup and Darwinists and Evolutionists like to attack the Bible. Just let me says this. The Bible was never meant to and still isn't a science textbook.

alot of bible people (like me) have two other things to add to this.

2peter3 a day with the lord is as 1000 years. That is used to turn gen 1 from 6 days to 6000 years. also i have to add in gen 1 the sun and moon were not created on the first day but rather the 4th i believe.

the other part also is the word was in genesis 1:2. it can be/should be translated "became".

Jer 4:23 I beheld the earth, and, lo, [it was] without form, and void; and the heavens, and they [had] no light.

this is part of the gap theory. suitable explanations for dinosaurs (job 40) also exist.

Look maybe some organisms evolve....But there is absolutely no possible way anything on this planet turned to MAN ....top government scientists in DNA know for a fact we are not of this planet but they cannot speak for themselves.

God was around forever and we cannot comprehend a forever.
He's been forever and one day him and his son(probably his sons idea) decided to make earth and humans in THEIR image and then he came into the human form to suffer and then spiritually suffered after that for every sin of the "saved" ones.

[edit on 29-6-2005 by Wisdumb]

Originally posted by D
Un-Christian eh? You must remember, that since you are a Christian that we are not all of a sudden something incredibly special and that we'll become perfect all of a sudden. We still have our flaws and we will have these flaws until the day we face judgement. The difference between us as Christians and non-Christians is that we have acknowledged Christ as our saviour.

I'm not quite sure what you're getting at here...what I meant was that you're not really following the teachings of Jesus if you're attacking each other, and churches are supposed to teach about him. So it's a bit ironic, you could say. Not that Christians are superior to anyone else...Sorry for the confusion.

cpr12r: What was around before God was...well...there wasn't anything before God. The human brain isn't wired for infinity, but perhaps a scientific revolution will allow us to see that.

Anyway, about Creationism v Darwinism, the only think I'd like to point out is that the main arguments people from both sides are not great. Christians use the Bible as backup and Darwinists and Evolutionists like to attack the Bible.

If evolutionists attack the bible its only because creationists present the bible as evidence, to be attacked and critiqued. If anyone is upset about the bible being constantly questioned and held up to scrutiny in the US, they should direct their concern the the creationist movement.

Originally posted by cpr12r
I'm christian and I believe that God guided alogn evolution and the creation of the universe but one thing has always intrigued me. If god created everything, What was around before god?

why do some christians say there is absolutly no proof that evolution exists, yet some christians put the two together? is the adam and eve myth still correct, yet with evolution tagging along? what's the deal?...

science has evolution, quit stealing sciences ideas, and stick to your own religious beliefs or don't believe in them at all. you can't have evolution and god together, it doesn't work! if you do then it pretty much means the bible is utter incoherant crap.

Originally posted by D
and Darwinists and Evolutionists like to attack the Bible.

This statement isn't accurate. Evolution (as I'm sure you know) was not developed through attacks on the Bible, but through systematic observation of evidence. Systematic observation of evidence also resulted in the discovery that the earth revolved about the sun, and not visa versa.

Originally posted by Wisdumb
there is absolutely no possible way anything on this planet turned to MAN

Perhaps you might explain why we are so similar in structure to every other land mammal? It's painfully obvious that we share critical similarities.

I think the primary reason for the debate between Christianity and Evolution stems from evolutionists taking the fight to Christians. I will demonstrate this in a moment. However, as has been stated time and time again on these boards, evolution is not in contention with Creationism, abiogenesis is. They are not mutually exclusive.

Now, these are some quotes from evolutionists over the years, who have tried to take evolution from the scientific arena and apply it to discrediting religion.

Hull, David L., “The God of the Galápagos,” review of Darwin on Trial, by Philip Johnson (Washington, D.C.: Regnery Gateway, 1991, 195 pp.), Nature, vol. 352 (August 8, 1991), pp. 485-486. Hull is in the Department of Philosophy, Northwestern University.
“What kind of God can one infer from the sort of phenomena epitomized by the species on Darwin’s Galápagos Islands? The evolutionary process is rife with happenstance, contingency, incredible waste, death, pain and horror.”

Monod, Jacques, “The Secret of Life,” Interview with Laurie John, Australian Broadcasting Co., June 10, 1976 (shortly before his death).
“[Natural] selection is the blindest, and most cruel way of evolving new species, and more and more complex and refined organisms. The struggle for life and elimination of the weakest is a horrible process, against which our whole modern ethics revolts. An ideal society is a non-selective society, one where the weak is protected; which is exactly the reverse of the so-called natural law. I am surprised that a Christian would defend the idea that this is the process which God more or less set up in order to have evolution.”

Bloom, Howard. The LUCIFER PRINCIPLE: A Scientific Expedition into the Forces of History.pp 1-2,
"Eighteen hundred years ago in a city of Rome, an influential Christian heretic named Marcion took a look at the world around him and drew a conclusion: The god who created our cosmos couldn't possibly be good."

"...More traditional Christians found another way of dealing with the problem of evil. They created the myth of Lucifer."
"....But, in a strange way, Marcion understood the situation better than the more conventional followers of the church, for Lucifer is merely one of the faces of a larger force. Evil is a by-product, a component, of creation. In a world evolving into ever higher forms, hatred, violence, aggression, and war are a part of the evolutionary plan."
"....Death, destruction, and fury do not disturb the Mother of our world; they are merely parts of her plan."

Before dismissing the Lucifer Principle as something not accepted by the scientific community, here's a few quotes from scientists in good standing on the Lucifer Principle, which directly attacked Christians through evolution:

Jerome Frank, MD, Ph.D. Prof. Emeritus Psychiatry, The John's Hopkins University School of Medicine.
"I'm in full agreement with ‘The Lucifer Principle'. It is fascinating, erudite, enjoyable, stimulating...."

Elizabeth Loftus, Prof. Psychology, Univ. of Washington.
"A revolutionary vision of the relationship between psychology and history, The Lucifer Principle will have a profound impact on our concepts of human nature."

The Independent Scholar:
"The Lucifer Principle has become an underground sensation in the scientific and literary communities...."

Sol Gordon, Ph.D., founder, The Institute for Family Research and Education:
"The Lucifer Principle is a tour de force, a brilliant and seminal work."

Allen Johnson, chair, anthropology department, UCLA:
"I found myself alternating between ‘Wow!' & ‘Aha'!

Horace Barlow, Royal Society Research Prof. of Physiology, Cambridge University:
"His story...is a challenging and welcome alternative to those based on theistic or political assumptions"

And before y'all start decrying this post as just finding a website, I did find a website with these quotes, but also checked some of them out to verify their accuracy. The site was a nice resource, but the quotes really were there, so don't dismiss the evidence because you don't like the means in which it was collected, bitte

I call it "killing Darwin for Christ"

The sole bases of the Christan religion is the believe that through a "Saviour" we can attain "salvation"

But in order to have Salvation we need a Saviour, that is the role of Christ.

But why Christ became the Saviour? Because in the origins of men and in the myth of creation we were tag sinners.

With the original sin religion thrives, God created everything, men sinned and we are condemn, a Saviour die in the Cross for our sins and now we have to worship him so he can come back to take us away.

Without Creation is no sin, without sin is not damnation and without damnation we don't need a Saviour.

Religion can never have the sole base of their faith be put to the test.

Evolution and scientific research are the biggest enemies that believers of creationism have.

So, we must kill Darwin for Christ, along with any other sciences that teaches free thinking and encourage intellectual development.

Originally posted by marg6043
Without Creation is no sin, without sin is not damnation and without damnation we don't need a Saviour.

Religion can never have the sole base of their faith be put to the test.

Evolution and scientific research are the biggest enemies that believers of creationism have.

So, we must kill Darwin for Christ, along with any other sciences that teaches free thinking and encourage intellectual development.

Case in point

This goes with the assumption that, when God created man in His image, it was a physical image he created man. The other interpretation is that God, a spirit being, breathed in souls to Adam and Eve, where the souls were in His image. If that's the case, there is no conflict. There is absloutly no evolutionary evidence of an evolved soul or any kind of evolution in the spirit realm. For the most part the scientific community dismisses any kind of spirit world because they do not have the means to measure it, although a paranormal investigative pseudo-science is developing. As most know, most fields of science started as pseudo-science, trying to work with no previous data and come to a conclusion. It may be only a matter of time before paranormal investigations get some concrete evidence and science gets an entire new field of study, but I have no idea if that's even possible. Hence the pseudo at the beginning.

When it comes to the Christian agenda, I believe if they had their way there would be no evolution teaching in any school in the U.S.A.

Do any of you really believe you are the creation of a God?

Have any solid evidence or science to back it up?

It would be better to leave open all paths to discovery and knowledge when it comes to teaching creation and/or evolution to the children of the world. Let them decide for themselves.

The shameful wrong coming from the Christian right, is that they will deny the existence of any theory other than creation even when that theory has more substance to back it up. Rather than argue creation based on facts and science, they would rather brainwash children before they are able to even understand either theory.

As for me, I am neither the result of creation or evolution.

I was expelled from the bowels of hell to walk this planet among you.


ESP

no one is really brought up as an evolutionist. yet, there are millions, perhaps billions that are brought up with a religious background. this is why there are so many people who are religious. it in no way proves religions are right. these religious thought processes are implemented early in young children and it is almost impossible to break this cycle. it is true that some people without religious upbringings will become a part of a religion when they are 25, 35 and so on. however, this usualy is because this person believes they are missing something in their lives. they are not looking for god or something spiritual, yet just something they can believe in, trust and so on. if there was a god i don't think there would be as many religions as there are today and that's not even counting the ones like the greek gods that have come and gone.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
why do some christians say there is absolutly no proof that evolution exists, yet some christians put the two together? is the adam and eve myth still correct, yet with evolution tagging along? what's the deal?...

As you say, Adam and Eve is a myth. What's the deal with you?

Originally posted by shaunybabyscience has evolution, quit stealing sciences ideas, and stick to your own religious beliefs or don't believe in them at all. you can't have evolution and god together, it doesn't work! if you do then it pretty much means the bible is utter incoherant crap.

A rather antagonistic view of Christianity. It appears that you wish to condemn every believer to ignorance based on your own. You would do well to recognize the difference between Christianity as a religion and the Christians who are Biblical literalists. Most Christians are not. Even the Pope has recognized evolution.

I don't see the basis for your statement about not having God and evolution together. All one must do is admit that some Biblical authors were human beings capable of error. You paint with too broad a brush.

Many leading western scientists today, even evolutionary biologists, call themselves Christians, though there are some Christians that would deny them, based on their literal interpretation of the Bible.

Harte

Aye, Christians started the modern science movement, including such concepts as the Scientific Method, but now that they've laid the foundations for you, you want them to get out of the playground. Science is the interpretation of things around us. Science seeks to answer the question how, while religion answers the question how. As you pointed out, some Christians decry evolution, and others say it works with the Bible. There's a lesson in that:

We don't have a hive mind!

If all Christians thought alike, there wouldn't be so many denominations. We are all individuals, and we all draw our own conclusions from the information presented us through life. Just like you.

Science and religion can't coexist? If I'm religious (I am), does that mean I'm not allowed to be interested in quantum mechanics (I am) as a hobby? Or astrophysics, for that matter...Well, physics in general. I love math Aite, I just got side tracked. The point is, they are not mutually exclusive.

Finally, you know, if evolution is supported in the Bible, I think we could start telling you to stop stealing our ideas. Except that we wouldn't, because science is not the anthesis of Christianity. I, too, used to believe it was, until I wound up becoming a Christian. Then, suddenly, that didn't work, because everything I learn about science only reinforces my faith. And I love to learn about science.

Originally posted by junglejake
God created man in His image,

This item bugs me also... it comes up a great deal, and is the reason creationists use to argue we never "could have come from damn dirty apes."

In reality, if this is the case, "God created us in his image," then God is not perfect, because we are very far from perfect.

Originally posted by SkepticOverlord
This item bugs me also... it comes up a great deal, and is the reason creationists use to argue we never "could have come from damn dirty apes."

In reality, if this is the case, "God created us in his image," then God is not perfect, because we are very far from perfect.

I agree, we are far from perfect, which gives more credit to the soul concept. God is perfect, I believe. God, so far as I understand, is not a physical entity but one of spirit. Creating man in his image, then, (again, in my interpretation, I'm far from a Biblical scholar) couldn't be our physical forms, but our spiritual ones.

As for our imperfection, there's that whole original sin corruption concept, but at the same time, both Adam and Eve sinned before original sin. In other words, I'm still working on understanding that concept

Good point, though!

One of the problems with Christianity is, that it humanize the Christian God so much as to make "men and women in his image"

Perhaps junglejake have a good point when he brings the "soul" I am more inclined to the believe of a immortal soul, if we are going to make ourselves in the image of God or a Creator, then we most assume that that image is not our corporate bodies or "human bodies" but our soul.

If when we die we released the "spirit" or soul then the spirit or soul most be perfect and in the image of the Creator.

But is a problem with this concept, Christianity will not agree with this due to the fact that it will mean that is not sin, no haven or hell and no condemnation.

If we leave our earthy bodies in a perfect condition then our "sins" are only part of the human and body condition.

This will become a totally new concept for some that are bound to earth by the human side, with the original sin tag to it and the pursue of forgiveness so they can inherit a places in paradise.

Most of you will agree with me that religion target condemnation more than anything else because it makes people afraid and dependent on religion for salvation.

That is why I don't believe in either haven or hell but rather a place in which we all go back after finishing with our human life.

Plus I have my own personal experiences something that support my believes.