Debunking the myth: We are creating terrorists in Iraq

Ok, this is going to be my third and last one in this series. So I am ending on a good one.

Everyone says "Oh what do you think a man would do if his son was killed by a US bomb." Or "Wouldn't you go out and kill US troops if you were held in Gitmo?"

There can't be anything more wrong with these statements. People who suffer real war or torture don't go out and seek it again. Look at survivors of the Final Solution. Millions and millions of people just walk right into gas chambers saying the Lord's Prayer or the S'hma even after they say their own sons killed.

And once they survived, they didn't go back and try to kill all the Nazi soldiers. The vast majority of them went the civil HUMAN route and had impartial trials and said never again.

"Well what about Jesse James and that Braveheart movie."

Well those people already hated the British and the US a lot. In no way where they neutral and down the line they would have tried to take us out if they didn't win. Jesse James was a slaver that raped youn black girls. I don't know a lot about William Wallace, but I bet he hated the English from killing his family before they killed his wife.

And also, do you think someone who had a loved one killed would go out and blow up a bunch of school children or police officers?

You have to look at actions on these things. When you start justifying murder and saying it's good to blow up innocents, it isn't good. Also take in account who is on the good side on this one. The US who everyone we liberated (Japan, Germany, S. Korea) are some of the richest countries in the world and we have given everything back to them? Or the Baathists who kill schoolchildren, police, hospital workers, and think it's okay to make billions by starving their own people.


[edit on 5-7-2005 by ADVISOR]

Yeah your right, because the Jews didn't become a race of Terrorists, there's no way possible that it will happen again.

Geez, even Rumsfeld said this week that it IS happening and it WILL get worse.

Where do you get your opinions from if you obviously don't read anything?

The corrupt and incompetent Bush administration's foreign incursion and occupation creates righteous anger and a strong motive for vengeance. But it does not make the victim's killing of other people through ambush or kidnapping or bombing a good thing.

Both sides are hopelessly wrong.

Instead of posting what should actually be a blog, or a long, uninformed rant, perhaps you could try and enlighten us with facts from credible sources.

[edit on 6/28/05 by EastCoastKid]

Another great new episode in the infamous "debunking the myth" series, created by RedWhiteandBlood.
I can't wait for the next one!

TheShroudOfMemphis: nah they just stole a counrty in the 50's, they kill childen daily. After all is this why they deny the UN access ?


[edit on 28-6-2005 by Sand_man]

And once they survived, they didn't go back and try to kill all the Nazi soldiers. The vast majority of them went the civil HUMAN route and had impartial trials and said never again.

Yeah, except for all those survivors that made that place called um, 'Israel' who also went around the world um, killing and capturing escaped Nazis while fighting off neighbors for 50 years with a tiny army.

I've read everysingle one of these unbelivably baised threads.

i can't comprehend the idea behind it, you see if you invade a country (especialy if it's for the wrong reasons: FYI the real terrorists and the ones funding them are Bush Saoudi Royal friends), you'll get resistance it's realy that simple.

By saying : "You're either with us or against us" Bush has created a terrorist out of everyone who wants to stay neutral in this conflict, and don't tell me it's not my right to remain neutral, it is my given right. Nothing is that black /white.

The way the US is trying to get a grip on the whole middle eastern region for it's own eceonomic, political and personal profit will only create more and fierce opposition , and that's realy very understandable imho.

It's human nature to want revenge, nothing new there. I hear alot of criticisms from mostly non-americans, but i dont recall a one of them offering anytype of solution. The fact is this has nothing do with iraq, it has to do with the dislike GW bush, and they dislike that we reelected the guy.
It also has to do with complete jealousy of the US, our economy, and standard of living. If only we could all be americans huh? and there will be someone on here who claims "i would never be an american". yeah right.

It also has to do with complete jealousy of the US, our economy, and standard of living. If only we could all be americans huh? and there will be someone on here who claims "i would never be an american". yeah right.

Yeah right alright !
Jealousy ? I'm sorry that's ridiculous...I have nothing to be jealous about.

Why do you think one should be jealous of the American way of living ?

You're standard of living ? are you talking about beeing overweight ? buying everything on creditcards ? having 2 jobs to earn enough to buy al the stuff you don't need, having metal detectors in highschools? having no independent media at all ? You're political 2 party system that cannot be called "democratic"? the privatisation of healthcare in the usa ? Death sentances, junkies, racial problems,................. is that what i'm supposed to be jealous of ? Well you'd be suprised if you would live here and expirience the difference. Have u ever been outside the States ?How can you just "know" that there is a feeling of jealousy outside the US ?

I know, what i said above might seem harsh but it delivers my point, i assure you, i'm not anti american, nor am i jealous of your way of living.

There's just one huge problem with your statements: You're assuming that they have the same sort of culture as Western Europe.



This is a very common mistake to make -- assuming that their history and values and culture sets up a society with the same moral imperatives as ours. This is the same mistake that Bush made.

These are not lands of "haves." These are lands of "have nots." They are lands where they have a long and elaborate code of honor, and they have a feudal/tribal system. Probably the closest analogy we have in Western civilization would be the Mafia.

The US didn't come in and aid someone who opposed Saddam to rise to power... they came in and took power. Then they reassigned it in a way consistant with US culture (throwing society into chaos and empowering the local warlords) and brought in people trying to convert the Iraquis from their own religion to the Christian religion.

...and they're supposed to love the US for this.

And we bombed their cities and their current power grid is up for fewer hours than it was under Saddam. They stand in line for hours at gas stations for a little gas, and run the risk of being killed by suicide bombers or getting caught in a firefight.

...and they're supposed to love the US for this.

Instead of an orderly society with a known strucure, they have a structure that changes with the whim of whoever can grab enough people to change it.

...and they're supposed to love the US for this.

Families have been decimated. There are more widows and fatherless children than there ever were under Saddam.

...and they're supposed to love the US for this.

Consider how you'd feel if this was conditions under a conquering army in the US. Would YOU love the conquerers for any of this?

Originally posted by Byrd
and brought in people trying to convert the Iraquis from their own religion to the Christian religion.

Uhm.
When did this happen?

Originally posted by XphilesPhan
It also has to do with complete jealousy of the US, our economy, and standard of living. If only we could all be americans huh? and there will be someone on here who claims "i would never be an american".

yeah right.

en.wikipedia.org...

Top 30 countries, 2004:

1. Norway
2. Sweden
3. Australia
4. Canada
5. Netherlands
6. Belgium
7. Iceland
8. United States
9. Japan
10. Republic of Ireland
11. Switzerland
12. United Kingdom
13. Finland
14. Austria
15. Luxembourg
16. France
17. Denmark
18. New Zealand
19. Germany
20. Spain
21. Italy
22. Israel
23. Hong Kong
24. Greece
25. Singapore
26. Portugal
27. Slovenia
28. South Korea
29. Barbados
30. Cyprus

The number one ranked country in each year of the index.

* 2004 – Norway
* 2003 – Norway
* 2002 – Norway
* 2001 – Norway
* 2000 – Canada
* 1999 – Canada
* 1998 – Canada
* 1997 – Canada
* 1996 – Canada
* 1995 – Norway
* 1994 – Canada
* 1993 – Japan
* 1992 – Canada
* 1991 – Japan
* 1990 – Canada
* 1985 – Canada
* 1980 – Switzerland

Xphilesphan, I'm Australian. I can categorically state to you and very much mean it when I say: I would never be an American.

I hope this was clear to you and ends any further ridiculous fallacy you have about the world hating you for you freedoms and standard of living.

Good day.

Originally posted by TheShroudOfMemphis

Yeah your right, because the Jews didn't become a race of Terrorists, there's no way possible that it will happen again.

Geez, even Rumsfeld said this week that it IS happening and it WILL get worse.

Where do you get your opinions from if you obviously don't read anything?

WHAT?!? Quick get TheShroudOfMemphis! Lock him up.

Your listening to Rumsfeld? I thought Rumfeld was on the other side and all he does is help spout off disinformation and propaganda for the big bad USA empire. Your actually listening to what he is saying??

Read some posts..... all he says is lies!..

Originally posted by RedWhiteandBlood
Ok, this is going to be my third and last one in this series. So I am ending on a good one.

Everyone says "Oh what do you think a man would do if his son was killed by a US bomb." Or "Wouldn't you go out and kill US troops if you were held in Gitmo?"

There can't be anything more wrong with these statements. People who suffer real war or torture don't go out and seek it again. Look at survivors of the Final Solution. Millions and millions of people just walk right into gas chambers saying the Lord's Prayer or the S'hma even after they say their own sons killed.

And once they survived, they didn't go back and try to kill all the Nazi soldiers. The vast majority of them went the civil HUMAN route and had impartial trials and said never again.

"Well what about Jesse James and that Braveheart movie."

Well those people already hated the British and the US a lot. In no way where they neutral and down the line they would have tried to take us out if they didn't win. Jesse James was a slaver that raped youn black girls. I don't know a lot about William Wallace, but I bet he hated the English from killing his family before they killed his wife.

And also, do you think someone who had a loved one killed would go out and blow up a bunch of school children or police officers?

You have to look at actions on these things. When you start justifying murder and saying it's good to blow up innocents, it isn't good. Also take in account who is on the good side on this one. The US who everyone we liberated (Japan, Germany, S. Korea) are some of the richest countries in the world and we have given everything back to them? Or the Baathists who kill schoolchildren, police, hospital workers, and think it's okay to make billions by starving their own people.

interesting post. i think you might be right partly, but i dont think it is a case of debunking anything.
War will have different effects on different people. it is difficult to predict how people will react or what will happen.
I dont think it is a good thing for US relations, at street level, in the long term.
I thnk you should be more concerned about the children of those people, who will grow up seeing their parents world destroyed by America.
Those will become the terrorists of the future.

Originally posted by XyZeR

By saying : "You're either with us or against us" Bush has created a terrorist out of everyone who wants to stay neutral in this conflict, and don't tell me it's not my right to remain neutral, it is my given right. Nothing is that black /white.

Well said. This statement Bush makes is a logical fallicy called false dichotomy[A.K.A . false dilemma]. It's an arguement that is overused by politicians IMO. Being against something never concludes that you must be for the other side. I recall Bush stating something to the effect that countries who harbor terrorists and don't cooperate with the U.S. will be considered a terrorist country. By that line of reasoning the U.S. is a terrorist nation since we do harbor terrorists, even if it is unwillingly.

As for the original post, I believe there is more evidence to the contrary. During the U.S.'s fight for independence we called ourselves revolutionaries. The English considered them to be rebels. It's all in the label. These "terrorists" probably consider themselves patriots or rebels. We [the U.S.] helped to perpetuate the current situation through violent action. Not everyone responds to violence with violence, but many do. Besides, some nations may not want to be "liberated" by the U.S.

Isnt liberation something you do yourself?
You liberate yourself, its the coming together of a community to liberate themselves from their invaders or controllers.
i dont think you can liberate someone, liberation is a personal choice

[edit on 28-6-2005 by AdamJ]

Instead of posting what should actually be a blog, or a long, uninformed rant, perhaps you could try and enlighten us with facts from credible sources.

What the heck's your problem? I put three posts of the view from the other side and your response is "Go post a blog?". Like experts from the Nation or Mother Jones are credible sources? What about those million posts of saying Bush caused 9/11 that I see here everyday?

That's really unfair. I've been reading the posts hear and the majority of them are opinions. Suddenly you hear something you don't like and you go and say Go post a blog?

What are you having a problem of addressing the issue that good people don't turn evil just because something bad happens to them. They are like that before.

Yeah your right, because the Jews didn't become a race of Terrorists, there's no way possible that it will happen again.
It's not just that. Look at every instance of human oppression. You don't see retaliation by the victims. The worst revolution in history, the French Revolution, was led by Robespierre, who was a rich diplomat that was more like Howard Dean than anyone.

Look at what we did to the slaves. Hundreds of years of torture, yet there wasn't no slave uprising in the south after the Civil War.

As for the original post, I believe there is more evidence to the contrary. During the U.S.'s fight for independence we called ourselves revolutionaries. The English considered them to be rebels. It's all in the label.

No, the topic here is a normal person turning into a murderer because their had a family member killed or arrested, or were locked up in Gitmo. This is an argument the left is pushing, that we are creating more terrorists in Iraq than we have killed.

My response is that man does not seek torture and war after going through it. If anything they get away from it as fast as they can.

It's a totally different comparison to the Revolution. The Revolution was about an idea and was lead by a group of people that stated it clearly. Thomas Jefferson, George Washington and Patrick Henry believed in the Enlightenment and reason well before the Boston Massacre.

If you want to compare Iraq to the Revolution, you have to present their cause, which is no democracy, no human rights, an al Qaeda religious dictatorship, and the moral justification of killing children for your cause.

If you want to say that terrorists are there because of the US, than look at human history and nature and you will see that tortured and oppressed people don't want to get back into it and seek revenge. They are evil before the fact and just use it as an excuse to kill people.

Originally posted by RedWhiteandBlood
As for the original post, I believe there is more evidence to the contrary. During the U.S.'s fight for independence we called ourselves revolutionaries. The English considered them to be rebels. It's all in the label.

No, the topic here is a normal person turning into a murderer because their had a family member killed or arrested, or were locked up in Gitmo. This is an argument the left is pushing, that we are creating more terrorists in Iraq than we have killed.

My response is that man does not seek torture and war after going through it. If anything they get away from it as fast as they can.

It's a totally different comparison to the Revolution. The Revolution was about an idea and was lead by a group of people that stated it clearly. Thomas Jefferson, George Washington and Patrick Henry believed in the Enlightenment and reason well before the Boston Massacre.

If you want to compare Iraq to the Revolution, you have to present their cause, which is no democracy, no human rights, an al Qaeda religious dictatorship, and the moral justification of killing children for your cause.

If you want to say that terrorists are there because of the US, than look at human history and nature and you will see that tortured and oppressed people don't want to get back into it and seek revenge. They are evil before the fact and just use it as an excuse to kill people.

I'd defend your right to post on here because you might be right on one occasion - but not on this occasion.

This is some of the most ill-informed tosh I've ever read on here.

If RW&B is in any way indicative of Americans' understanding of the issues that face the World it's no wonder they've managed, in 4 short years, to destroy any vestiges of goodwill they once posessed.

Very worrying