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Koran illegal in the UK? It will be soon….

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posted on Jun, 28 2005 @ 06:46 AM
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Originally posted by nukunuku
oh c mon reading the bible is not illegal in muslim countries!!!!

I think there is only one exception, president Bush's best friends the Saudis.




posted on Jun, 28 2005 @ 06:52 AM
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Originally posted by Simon666

Originally posted by nukunuku
oh c mon reading the bible is not illegal in muslim countries!!!!

I think there is only one exception, president Bush's best friends the Saudis.


That i could belive as they are as hard core as they come, i wonder why they dont get bombed



posted on Jun, 28 2005 @ 01:19 PM
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Originally posted by djohnsto77
The Bible was written entirely by Jews, it doesn't condemn them!

Paul was not a jew, and the apostles weren't really jews either, they 'left' judaism and started this whole jesus movment. Obviously they didn't reject the context entirely and at all places, but it doesn't appear that all of them thought that christianity was 'just' a jewish sect.

In John 8 jesus himself castigates the jews he is talking to and who will not covert to the jesus movment and says that they are the children of the devil.

Then entire Gospel of Matthew, I think, is generally agreed upon as being extremely disparaging of the jewish nation and leadership, and curses the entire population for having jesus's blood on their hands.

Nowadays amoung many conservative christians, there is a desire to 'protect' the jews' because today they are interpreted as still beign the chosen ones, and because they are seen as worshipping the same god, but for an extremely long time, including when the gospels were written, they were hated, hated for having been chosen, and yet having 'forced' pilate and the romans (the principle audience of the evangelicals in those days of course) to have killed jesus.

Not all of the gosepls are hostile torwards them, and of course there is some debate on the matter as some of the Apostles apparently felt that a person had to be a jew, then a christian, and not a gentile, but its pretty clear that there are parts of hte bible that, if you got up on a soapbox and screamed, you'd be clearly understood to be a bigot and anti-semite.



posted on Jun, 28 2005 @ 01:21 PM
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Originally posted by Lady of the Lake
The Koran will not banned in the UK but bibles are being removed from hotel rooms. What does that tell you?


- Ummmmm, that almost no-one here was actually reading them?

Or maybe that being the multi-cultural society that we are now they are increasingly anachronistic?

Or maybe the Gideons et al have realised there are better things to do with their limited resources with a better 'rate of return'?

But beyond that the truth is, IMO, it doesn't really tell anyone very much about anyone.

(Are you 'linking' "the Koran not being banned" with "Bibles are being removed from hotel rooms".......it's not like the Bible is being banned. Why do that?)

Incitement crime is always a difficult one, each usually having to be asessed on it's own and any impact it caused.

But to some extent I think some people are working really hard to create mountains out of molehills here.
Free speech is a great idea but I have yet to see the society with absolutely no limitations or possible restrictions on absolutely 'free speech'.

Even in the USA there are torturous libel, slander and defamation laws; you can just say what you like......but you may have to face the consequences of that 'liberty', this is no different.

(and as said, speculating about the detail is great but let's not pretend that it is anything other than that, no matter which daft politician they rake up to comment.
......and Boris certainly is a real 'figure of fun'.

There will also probably be a ton of 'testing; in court to be done too before the thing is settled and sorted anyways.)

But no, none of the world's religious 'Holy Books' is to be banned.


[edit on 28-6-2005 by sminkeypinkey]



posted on Jun, 29 2005 @ 04:52 AM
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Originally posted by sminkeypinkey
- Ummmmm, that almost no-one here was actually reading them?Or maybe that being the multi-cultural society that we are now they are increasingly anachronistic?Or maybe the Gideons et al have realised there are better things to do with their limited resources with a better 'rate of return'?(Are you 'linking' "the Koran not being banned" with "Bibles are being removed from hotel rooms".......it's not like the Bible is being banned. Why do
that?)


Firstly I have never read a bible in a hotel room. I can't speak for others but it has been the tradition and from what I read in the UK papers it isn't Gideons who made the decesion not to supply the bible. This decision has been made by hotel chains - why?

Secondly I think you kid yourself that the UK is a multi-cultural society. You are a society of many cultures and that is why you have conflict (same as Australia for that matter). A true multi-cutural society means everyone living in harmony and each respecting each others views and belief's. What we have is one or many cultures trying to dominate. T

Why associate the question on banning the Koran and removal of the bible - simply to say this isn't targeted at any one group it is an attack of all groups.

[edit on 29/6/2005 by Lady of the Lake]



posted on Jun, 29 2005 @ 06:34 AM
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First is illegal in any US and britian to talk about relgion in public or pray aloud .

As for the Koran ban in Britian is simply noncensce becaue you got many muslims there they wont be qiut not because of bush or Saudis. The Quran is a very holy book from God and no law could stop it beause its divined.

As for these Hocus Pocus thing that you say around here you have never been in an islamic country and not meet with muslims please dont judge all by the action of few and you cant just go there and talk like that because i am muslim and you have insulted me in some of the remarks you put.

Islam is the relgion of tolerance and the proof is that the time Omar al-Kattab invaded Egypt the pryimds and there pharoahs stuff is still here. another one is that there are many Christian in Islamic countries there.



posted on Jun, 29 2005 @ 06:44 AM
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Originally posted by Lady of the Lake
Firstly I have never read a bible in a hotel room. I can't speak for others but it has been the tradition and from what I read in the UK papers it isn't Gideons who made the decesion not to supply the bible. This decision has been made by hotel chains - why?


- Why?
Probably because hardly anyone bothered with them, they are increasingly anachronistic and maybe even the religious groups aren't that into it anymore, like I said.

But surely private owners of hotels (chains or otherwise) are entitled and free to decide what goes into their establishments, why should a Bible be mandatory?

I'd also point out that if the decision was that of the hotel chains - and in this instance you are perfectly correct, it was - then it can't have anything to do with new legislation or any official or governmental "ban" can it?


Secondly I think you kid yourself that the UK is a multi-cultural society. You are a society of many cultures and that is why you have conflict (same as Australia for that matter).


- Well that is the definition of "multi-cultural". I'm not kidding anyone, we have several cultures therefore we are multi-cultural. Fact.


A true multi-cutural society means everyone living in harmony and each respecting each others views and belief's. What we have is one or many cultures trying to dominate.


- Just because we do not have perfection everywhere (although for the most part we do a damned good job of it) does not invalidate our entire society and its' multi-cultural-ism, IMO.

In the UK we, for the most part, do very well. Excepting the nutter element (and they really are a small minority most prefer to ignore - that is 'our own nutters' and any of 'theirs') the UK is rightfully known across the world as a place most can live peaceful and civillised lives.

I completely disagree that there is a 'competition' of some sort going on where the comparatively tiny numbers of people from other cultures living in Britain are trying to "dominate" the 'native' people of Britain.
The very idea is absurd.
Accomodating other cultures is not to be dominated by them.

The one culture we do have problems of real and actual "domination" with is actually American culture, not an Asian or African one, if you really can't see this I suggest you open your eyes and wise up to reality (and if you are Australian I'd lay cash money down the same goes for you).


Why associate the question on banning the Koran and removal of the bible - simply to say this isn't targeted at any one group it is an attack of all groups.


- "Attack"?! By the hotel owners? Come on, be serious.

......and just who is supposed to be banning the Koran?

(if you follow the Parliamentary reports you'd see all sorts of predicted difficulties have been claimed for this legislation from all sorts of people, jokes they have said would, apparantly, be banned etc etc.

It has all been refuted in Parliament as the debates go on as absolutely and expressedly not the intention of this legislation (which means if it ever went to court on those sort of grounds the judges would have to take account of Parliament's intentions).

Storm in a tea-cup, IMO.



posted on Jun, 30 2005 @ 06:36 AM
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It astounds me that so many live in ignorance of what is happening in many western societies today. It is the deceitful way in which culture and traditions are being systematically eroded without any reference to or approval of society in general. The point I was making about the removal of bibles which (in itself) is not a world-shattering event is that this is just one VERY small event in many events that add to over time the undermining of who and what you are as a society.

I also think you are very naïve to think that Britain is a true multi-cultural as opposed to multi-racial society. Your society is multi-racial. You don’t live is harmony in many areas and you can’t live in harmony when minorities try to usurp ‘who and what you are’ as a nation. Fact..


It has all been refuted in Parliament as the debates go on as absolutely and expressedly not the intention of this legislation (which means if it ever went to court on those sort of grounds the judges would have to take account of Parliament's intentions).
Come on now, what planet do you life on? When have the courts ever taken any noticce of Parliament's intention. The law is the law as the priest's in Australia recently found out and this was regardless of Parliament's intention. OMG



[edit on 30/6/2005 by Lady of the Lake]



posted on Jun, 30 2005 @ 12:15 PM
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Originally posted by Lady of the Lake
The point I was making about the removal of bibles which (in itself) is not a world-shattering event is that this is just one VERY small event in many events that add to over time the undermining of who and what you are as a society.


- Well like I said it can hardly be much of an erosion of "who or what we are" if hardly anyone ever bothers with the Bible in a hotel room in the first place, huh?


I also think you are very naïve to think that Britain is a true multi-cultural as opposed to multi-racial society. Your society is multi-racial. You don’t live is harmony in many areas and you can’t live in harmony when minorities try to usurp ‘who and what you are’ as a nation. Fact.


- Er, the "facts" are that we in the UK - whilst by no means perfect - have a pretty good record when it comes to our centuries of multi-racialism/culturalsim (I think you are really splitting hairs there).


When have the courts ever taken any noticce of Parliament's intention.


- Er, ok, perhaps I could have been clearer.
I wasn't referring to the ordinary Parliamentary debate(s) but things like the Sec of States specific intent as expressed through the accompanying regulations and guidance.

It's a bit anoraky I know but every Act of Parliament has regulation and SoS direction. When an Act is challenged in Court these are part of what a Judge must use if he/she is to make a judgement on the basis of the intention of Parliament........if they don't they lay themselves wide open to appeal and over-rule.

You can be as cynical as you like but thats how it works, here anyways......that's the nuts and bolts of what they're talking about when you hear about Judges 'interpreting' an Act of Parliament.

Anyhoo, the point is pretty clear, a hotel chain removing Bibles from their hotel rooms has nothing to do with a proposed law against inciting religious hatred.......which in turn is not going to lead to any such banning of the Koran or any other fundamental and major religious book for that matter.



posted on Jun, 30 2005 @ 05:49 PM
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You have voted paperclip for the Way Above Top Secret award. You have two more votes this month.

Surprsised no one responded to paperclip's post, was spot on, Johnson really is a complete pratt for coming out with that (that particular quote mentioned anyway), in light of the context (pointed out by paperclip), Johnson should now be sacked, that is just out of order, trying to make the Qur'an out as some sort of barbaric faith.

That passage is no more encouraging of religious hatred than the Shawshank Redemption was of prison gang rape. (only example i could think of, i'm tired!)
Of course i can see the quote read out on its own could perhaps do some damage, but how many people would read it out of context? Hardly any 'Muslims' in Britain even read the meaning of the Qur'an. Boris i used to think you were cool!



posted on Jun, 30 2005 @ 11:25 PM
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I heard from some chinese people living in Canada that they smuggle bibles into China. The question becomes will UK become the next China? Also note the article about the banning of phrases like "freedom of speech" on search engines in China.

There isn't enough grounds to ban the koran, as it would create an uprising. It would create a really negative and biased environment within the UK government.

All this article is, is just a media thing to sell newspapers. Their main objective is to sell newspapers, regardless of it being just rumor or whatnot.



posted on Jul, 1 2005 @ 08:34 AM
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Originally posted by websurfer
I heard from some chinese people living in Canada that they smuggle bibles into China. The question becomes will UK become the next China?


- No.
Not with the proposed legislation that this thread has been talking about.


There isn't enough grounds to ban the koran, as it would create an uprising. It would create a really negative and biased environment within the UK government.


- Absolutely; it would create merry hell amongst the majority British population; we don't like that kind of thing and it isn't going to happen.


All this article is, is just a media thing to sell newspapers. Their main objective is to sell newspapers, regardless of it being just rumor or whatnot.


- So true. It's easily done.
Dig up any old loopy talking head and get them to speculate endlessly until what they are talking about bares no relation whatsoever to what has been proposed.

It's rather sad really.



posted on Jul, 1 2005 @ 08:53 AM
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Originally posted by djohnsto77
Isn't it illegal to read parts of the Bible now in Canada since they're anti-gay?

This is just an expansion of an anti-religious secular agenda in these nations. Hopefully our Constitution will protect the U.S. from getting such laws, even though many liberal groups would like to see them enacted.


Ah yes, put the old "anti-religious" slant on it. Whenever religions don't get THEIR distinct ways in a lifely setting of non/multi-religious scenarios, it's cry foul.

Perhaps it's more "pro-normalicy"? Normal people (read: non-religious) are sick of religion being pushed upon us. Case in point, Bibles in hotels - I open up the drawer for the phone book and there sits the past that was my destroyed childhood; I threw my past in the trash, just like that Bible in the hotel room. I go to court and there it is again, 10 commandments. Probly the worst is sitting at home with my family, thinking the door bell is a kids' friend, only to find that damn Bible being waved in the air at me!

It's not so much "anti-religion", as it is "keep it to yourself".
"Anti-religion" dictates an implication of ridding a religion in whole - not the case, we just want to rid it from OUR own life in the scociety we live in. I don't go around knocking on doors professing the Goddess, or saying you should celebrate Beltane, or trying to mandate that a 6' stone Pentagram should be at court houses.......... I expect the same in return.

Misfit

Edit = lack of coffee typos

[edit on 1-7-2005 by Misfit]



posted on Jul, 1 2005 @ 10:50 AM
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Excellent points sminkypinky. Us Brits seem to come at this from a completely different angle to you US guys. I'd just like to add a few points:

1. The proposed anti-religious hatred law has been put foward by the current Labour government purely from pressure from the Muslim population of the country. They lost a lot of muslim voters (traditionally Labour voters) during the last election (due to the Iraq invasion) and are desperate to win them back. The muslim population is lobbying vigarously to make this into law. They would hardly be doing this if the law would result in the banning of the Qu'ran (Doh!)

2. It is the secular liberalist section of the country (myself included) who are the most vocal in opposition to this law. As I see it; if I want to make jokes about Christians or Muslims, or say that the Qu'ran is a pile of crap I should have the freedom to do so without being arrested. Just as religious people should have the freedom to practice their religion and tell me that atheism is a pile of crap. Both religion and atheism are ideas, and in a free society everyone should be able to attack ideas as they see fit.

3. Hotels are commercial enterprises and can decide what they want to go in their rooms, whether it be a wardrobe or a Bible. Unlike the US the UK is not a very religious place and church attendances are tiny - therefore it seems quite strange to have the bible in every room. To be honest I thought they had stopped doing this ages ago anyway, as I haven't seen a Bible in a hotel room for over 10 years. Anyway if you are religous surely you can bring your own holy book with you.

Some earlier poster said something about it being illigal to pray in public in the UK. What the hell are you on about? This is just nonsense.



posted on Jul, 1 2005 @ 11:18 AM
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I’m not religious nor do I believe in god but I don't think we should ban any religious text here in the US whether it be the bible or whatever. The first amendment of our Constitution gives the right to practice any religion.

First Amendment

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.”



posted on Jul, 1 2005 @ 11:38 AM
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Originally posted by WestPoint23
I’m not religious nor do I believe in god but I don't think we should ban any religious text here in the US whether it be the bible or whatever. The first amendment of our Constitution gives the right to practice any religion.


Agree with that. To do so is to invoke Farenheit 451, wherein no books, eventually, will exist.

While I may think books like the Bible are a crock of crap, my wishing it gone is wishing my personal will against that of another. My princples run deeper than my spite of religion.

Misfit



posted on Jul, 1 2005 @ 11:52 AM
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Originally posted by ulshadow
Oh no... I hope nothing of this happens in the US, as much anti-religions i am(any religion) this should not happen. i hope our constition and bill of rights protects it.
'

They would ban the bible before they would ban the Korean. We already had to remove monuments with religious sayings on them from public places so people who do not believe in God won't be offended makes a whole lot of sense don't it?



posted on Jul, 1 2005 @ 11:54 AM
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Christians believe in the holy spirit a bit like the force in star wars and taking away or reducing of Bibles teachings in brings evil into their thoughts and allows darker forces to have more space to play in.
So to the more advanced believers it seems the UK society is given in to sin and in turn dispersing the holy spirit. As recent trends have shown the reduction of Bible teaching and beliefs compared to the grow of anti-social behavour and crime almost compliment each other if you had to draw a graph. Apart from Tony Blair I do not know of many Christian politicians and this has allowed the further reduction of Bible knowlegde. Their are theories that because of Bible prophecy and the big anti-christ issue it will take a generation that are ignorant of the Bible to actually get fooled in to voting the anti-christ in.

If it does happen according to the Bible people would be angry for why God never warned us. But he has and some future generation will vote the power of the ant-christ in as they were blinded from the truth and reading of the Bible because there was no one to teach them. That is why there seems to be a conspiracy against religion as a whole and how people see this panning out the uniting of all religions so everyone can be blinded at the same time, or having a world majority of athiests being fooled into voting the anti-christ in because they never believed in a God.

You do not have to be a believer to know these things or have religious views but it does not make the subject of interest boring. Maybe this small story about the Koran ban is false I still need to do the research and its not suprising if all religion becomes swept under the carpet and watered down in the future of man kind.
Its the banning and political correctness that get people going.

[edit on 1-7-2005 by The time lord]



posted on Jul, 1 2005 @ 12:00 PM
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If that is banned, then the bible'd have to be similarly banned, new and old testament.


An interesting truth.

All faiths have pretty much preached genocide of infidels at one point or another...ever since the concept of faith has been used to unite one group against another since the days of sun worship.

Indeed, such an action of banning is a slippery slope....



posted on Jul, 1 2005 @ 12:11 PM
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Separation of church and stare is one thing but banning a religion or that religions text is just not right, everyone should be equally respected and represent. As much as I don't agree or believe the bible it should not be banned everyone has their right to believe/pratice what ever they want.



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