WTC Challenge

Originally posted by Hunting Veritas
Zaphod, zaphod, zaphod......

The FAA notified NORAD at 0838. - At 0824 the following transmission came from the plane: "We have some planes. Just stay quiet, and you’ll be OK. We are returning to the airport.” Seconds later another transmission said: “Nobody move. Everything will be OK. If you try to make any moves, you’ll endanger yourself and the aeroplane. Just stay quiet.” That was the first report of a hi-jacking. As many jets as possible NATIONWIDE should have been scrambled. No matter if it was an accident or not. EVERY jet able to fly should have been launched. - NOTICE: Plural - "We have some planes.

At 0846 Flight 11 hit WTC. At 0853 F-15s were airbourne from Otis, Air national guard. Falmouth, Massachusetts.

~Peace

~

The pilots at Otis had warnings of the hijacking BEFORE NORAD was notified. (See page 365, 368, 369 of The Terror Timeline) Boston Flight Controlled contacted Otis directly between 8:34 and 8:40 AM. They took off before CNN coverage of the story broke (8:48 AM) and headed directly toward NYC.
"NORAD claims the first fighters are scrambled before the first WTC hit." (8:46AM) page 376 The Terror Timeline.

"An F-15 departing from Otis can reach New York City in ten to twelve minutes, according to an Otis spokeswoman." Page 380 TTT

They arrived as the second plane hit WTC 2, fired a missile and hit WTC 6.

www.capecodonline.com...

Please note: The pilots that took off for NYC were not the ones that were on training and were pulled back to rearm.

[edit on 15-8-2005 by Hector]

Howard that was a different portion of the transcript!

9:52 a.m.

Battalion Seven Chief: "Battalion Seven to Battalion Seven Alpha."

"Freddie, come on over. Freddie, come on over by us."

Battalion Seven Chief: "Battalion Seven ... Ladder 15, we've got two isolated pockets of fire. We should be able to knock it down with two lines. Radio that, 78th floor numerous 10-45 Code Ones."

Ladder 15: "What stair are you in, Orio?"

Battalion Seven Aide: "Seven Alpha to lobby command post."

Ladder Fifteen: "Fifteen to Battalion Seven."

Battalion Seven Chief: "... Ladder 15."

Ladder 15: "Chief, what stair you in?"

Battalion Seven Chief: "South stairway Adam, South Tower."

Ladder 15: "Floor 78?"

Battalion Seven Chief: "Ten-four, numerous civilians, we gonna need two engines up here."

Ladder 15: "Alright ten-four, we're on our way."

The portion I made bold is the portion I was refering to Howard. Did you think I was going to let you try and backspin this without my revealing the truth!

Then you say the outside walls were buckling, I see the aluminum flashing that was decorative coming off bud.

Battalion Seven Chief: "Ten-four, numerous civilians, we gonna need two engines up here."

Two engines, this is talking about the amount of manpower needed to rescue
the numerous civillians, not for fighting the fire. What did you think it meant Howard? Battalions, Engines, Ladders. Its the manpower not how many lines are needed.

I know you are doing this on purpose, because nobody is that stupid.



[edit on 15-8-2005 by LoneGunMan]

Excerpt from the ACTUAL dispatchers and fire radios on 9-11.

9:58

FIELD. ... To Manhattan, urgent

DISPATCH. Go ahead, K.

FIELD. One of the buildings, the entire building has collapsed.

DISPATCH. Urgent identify

FIELD. ... Major collapse in one of the towers

DISPATCH. Which tower, K?

FIELD. Tower 2, tower 2

FIELD: The South Tower, Major Collapse

DISPATCH. 10-4

9:59

DISPATCH. Manhattan to Field Comm., K.

DISPATCH: Manhattan to Field Comm.

FIELD. Marine 6 to Manhattan

DISPATCH. Standby, Marine 6. Manhattan to Field Comm. Manhattan to Field Comm.

FIELD. Marine 6 to Manhattan, urgent.

DISPATCH. Marine 6.

FIELD. Tower 2 has had a major explosion and what appears to be a complete collapse surrounding the entire area.

Originally posted by Hector
The pilots at Otis had warnings of the hijacking BEFORE NORAD was notified. (See page 365, 368, 369 of The Terror Timeline) Boston Flight Controlled contacted Otis directly between 8:34 and 8:40 AM. They took off before CNN coverage of the story broke (8:48 AM) and headed directly toward NYC.
"NORAD claims the first fighters are scrambled before the first WTC hit." (8:46AM) page 376 The Terror Timeline.

I'm not sure where that info is from? Can you post a link.

"An F-15 departing from Otis can reach New York City in ten to twelve minutes, according to an Otis spokeswoman." Page 380 TTT

What about all the other Air force bases and fighter jets? And SAM sites or don't the US have SAMS?

~Peace :Cool:~

There were SEVEN ANG bases with armed fighters, and not many more regular AF bases. It would have taken two plus hours to arm fighters.

Originally posted by Zaphod58
There were SEVEN ANG bases with armed fighters, and not many more regular AF bases. It would have taken two plus hours to arm fighters.

So in ALL seven bases which is AIR NATIONAL GUARD. Emphasis on AIR.

You would have thought the AIR national guard would be prepped up and battle ready and fully armed in case of an emergency such as 911 also to be in the air in less than 22 minutes. You basically saying they had NO FIGHTER jets battle ready and unable to take off without being armed. I can think of numerous ways to take down a commercial airliner in a fighter jet and not all of them includes using ATAMs.

~Peace ~

That was seven bases for the ENTIRE UNITED STATES, not just the east coast.

At the height of the Cold War, U.S. warplanes used to stand ready at 90 to 100 sites across the nation, there to intercept a Soviet bomber coming down from Alaska, and later to ward off intercontinental ballistic missile attacks.

When the Soviet Union fell, nearly all of those readiness patrols were eliminated. Before the attack, the number of alert bases had dropped to just seven sites around the country, mostly ringing the coast in the South and West for drug interdiction and other purposes.
www.wanttoknow.info...

Yes there are other ways, and several F-16 pilots apparently considered using ramming tactics for Flight 93. One thing that most people don't realize however is that for planes using the Inertial Navigation System (ie US fighters and bombers), if they aren't sitting alert and don't have engines run, and the systems aligned every 24-48 hours, it takes 45 minutes to an hour of them running engines to align the system, and even in a defense emergency, they HAVE to have the INS system aligned as a backup to any other system.

[edit on 16-8-2005 by Zaphod58]

well i dont beleive that they are that slow and the emergency procedures are that bad. i just dont believe it, excuses, excuses, excuses.
i thought they had specific defense against things like this.
45 minutes, BS.

[edit on 16-8-2005 by AdamJ]

Then why did I have to be on the flightline to meet the crews an hour ahead of departure time? They had to start engines and run them for 45 minutes to an hour to align the navigation system. I spent MANY years doing this with B-1s, B-52s and all kinds of fighters. Alert fighters are different, because they realign the nav system every 24 hours. The system will hold alignment for 24-48 hours.

[edit on 16-8-2005 by Zaphod58]

[edit on 16-8-2005 by Zaphod58]

I'm not sure about the US but here in the UK I believe we have fighter jets on 24/7 alert. With engines RUNNING. So if there is any emergency they can be airborne in less than 22 minutes and that (I believe) was protocol before 911.

~Peace ~

Andrews AFB is always ready. Always. It is first defence of the seat of government, Air Force One, and the Pentagon. They are always ready with gatling guns. The white house has SAMs on the roof, I dont know if the Pentagon does.

Andrews is always and has always been ready to protect Capitol Hill, the Whitehouse, The Pentagon and Airforce One. Which part of this scenario do you not understand Zaphod?

What base were you asigned to? You mentioned a few bombers specifically. What fighters did you not have ready?

After the two towers were hit, Andrews knew the score and made themselves at an even higher state of alert and readiness. If it was such a big failure, and orders were not given from above why wasnt anyone fired for not protecting the Pentagon? Because if they were fired, or court martialed then the truth would have come out.


[edit on 16-8-2005 by LoneGunMan]

I worked as a civilian at Pease in NH, with FB-111s and KC-135, and at Hickam with C-135s KC-135s, C-130s and all the transient birds. all types of fighters, B-52s, B-1s, and many other types. We had NO fighters at Pease, and we have at the MOST four on 15 minute alert here at Hickam. As a side note, slightly off topic, I'd appreciate a TINY modicum of respect and for you to NOT slam my intelligence everytime I disagree with something you say. I UNDERSTAND how the system works.

Yes Andrews has fighters on alert, but they are on 15 minute alert, and they have to have a target to go after. When the flight that hit the Pentagon (it's late and I haven't had any sleep so I can't remember which it was) entered Washington airspace, and they noticed it, they didn't know what it was, if it was something with a problem, a ghost return, etc. They were tracking it at 50 miles per Pineta (I think) but it was flying at over 500 mph. Should they have had fighters ready to go, or airborne, probably, but they had no way of knowing the Pentagon was a target until too late.

Originally posted by Zaphod58
I worked as a civilian at Pease in NH, with FB-111s and KC-135, and at Hickam with C-135s KC-135s, C-130s and all the transient birds. all types of fighters, B-52s, B-1s, and many other types. We had NO fighters at Pease, and we have at the MOST four on 15 minute alert here at Hickam. As a side note, slightly off topic, I'd appreciate a TINY modicum of respect and for you to NOT slam my intelligence everytime I disagree with something you say. I UNDERSTAND how the system works.

I am not slaming your intelligence, you said yourself you had fighters on 15 minute alert at Hickam.

Yes Andrews has fighters on alert, but they are on 15 minute alert, and they have to have a target to go after. When the flight that hit the Pentagon (it's late and I haven't had any sleep so I can't remember which it was) entered Washington airspace, and they noticed it, they didn't know what it was, if it was something with a problem, a ghost return, etc. They were tracking it at 50 miles per Pineta (I think) but it was flying at over 500 mph. Should they have had fighters ready to go, or airborne, probably, but they had no way of knowing the Pentagon was a target until too late.

Both towers had been hit, Andrews can track misslies going hyper-sonic, mach 5 and not track a 500 mph civillian bus? It just doesnt work that way, it really doesnt. That bird was doing a b-line for the capitol city of the United States of America after we were attacked not once but twice. This aircraft was marked as hi-jacked for 30 minutes before it hit the Pentagon.

You get your fighters up, so they can use there airborn targeting equiptment. If an F-16 can pick up a SAM or AAM, going hyper-sonic, lay down chaff and flares and then out fox the thing, you dont think they can aquire a 500 mph hour target? A BIG ONE at that? If this were true we would never be tacticly adept like we are. We always have, since the history of airpower, had air superiority.

I am not insulting your intellegence, I find your counterpoints to be very creative. I think you are fooling yourself,( out of disbelief that this stand down could happen) and that is not a sign of stupidity. It is a sure sign of high intellegence. You are a good person I am sure, and good people havea hard time believing this could happen.

[edit on 16-8-2005 by LoneGunMan]

Originally posted by ANOK
If you can see exterior walls buckling in those pics howard, I think you need to adjust the pincushion/balance on your monitor!

Here, try looking at this image.



source (see page 45)

If you still can’t see the obvious bowing of the exterior walls, either in that image above, or in the original presentation slide that I got that from, then you are truly blinded by your ideology.

Originally posted by Zaphod58
I worked as a civilian at Pease in NH, with FB-111s and KC-135, and at Hickam with C-135s KC-135s, C-130s and all the transient birds. all types of fighters, B-52s, B-1s, and many other types. We had NO fighters at Pease, and we have at the MOST four on 15 minute alert here at Hickam. As a side note, slightly off topic, I'd appreciate a TINY modicum of respect and for you to NOT slam my intelligence everytime I disagree with something you say. I UNDERSTAND how the system works.

Sorry if I seem to come across hastey. I have the up most respect for anyone, ANYONE. I am not trying to slam your intelligence or anyone elses. Sorry if it seems like I am.

~Peace ~

If you still can’t see the obvious bowing of the exterior walls, either in that image above, or in the original presentation slide that I got that from, then you are truly blinded by your ideology.

I dont know about anyone else Howard, but I see aluminum flashing that was used as decoration to cover the outside steel frame. You fork tongued devil you.

Originally posted by LoneGunMan

If you still can’t see the obvious bowing of the exterior walls, either in that image above, or in the original presentation slide that I got that from, then you are truly blinded by your ideology.

I dont know about anyone else Howard, but I see aluminum flashing that was used as decoration to cover the outside steel frame. You fork tongued devil you.

OK, so I’ll work with that.

(A minor point of correction, it is called cladding, not flashing. Flashing is a different building component altogether )


So, are you admitting that you can see in that picture where the cladding is out of plane?

(hint, the numbers IN the grid indicate the estimated movement in inches)

Now, If you want to get that technical, then fine.

That picture clearly shows the movement of the exterior aluminum façade, or cladding.

(BTW, that is of the south face of WTC 1 from about 10:40)

Given that the typical exterior column and flashing cross section looked like this:



Can you please explain to me how the aluminum façade (cladding, or flashing) was able to bow inward that much without the exterior columns moving also?

Like this?



You can see aluminum coming off of the columns quite a bit there, while the columns themselves are obviously not doing a similar amount of dangling.

Look again at Column lines 311 through 316 at the 97th floor in the picture I posted. Those are not aluminum facade pieces hanging outward, the whole column line is buckling inward.

Come on, just admit it. The exterior walls were buckling inward.


[edit on 16-8-2005 by HowardRoark]