WTC Challenge

Originally posted by LoneGunMan

I am sorry I beg to differ this in itslf is a smoking gun. Seven minutes after the country is under attack, an ircraft turns towards DC, turns off its transponder and the F-16's with "hot guns" are not scrambled?!?

That's exactly it, yes. You do know that at that point there were only 7 AFBs "ready to go" to serve the entire country, right? Each with only two fighters? Meaning for the others to get "up and ready", would have meant much longer delays in getting those fighters airborne? And that this had been the case for at least the months leading up to the day itself? Perhaps more to the point, that those bases on alert were generally trained only for the threat coming into the country?

Accually I do not have the time to go into detail on this.... I know FAA protocal. This whole thing stinks. The FAA and NORAD have never, ever made these kind of mistakes! When I have more time I will lay out the protocal.

Well, we'll be here when you do

If you know the protocol, then you know that mistakes do not necessarily a conspiracy maketh.



[edit on 11-8-2005 by Tinkleflower]

Here are some major skyscraper fires in the U.S. before 9-11

#1. The World Trade Center Fire of 1975 - On the night of Feb. 23, 1975. A fire started on the 11th floor of the north tower and spread vetically through openings in the floor slabs. Even though the fire was intensely burning for 4 hours , it did not cause the tower to collapse. Damage was estimated at $2,000,000 dollars.

#2 The 1 New York Plaza Fire of August 6, 1970 - Building suffered a major fire on the night of August 6th. This blaze burned for 6 hours, but it did not cause the building to collapse. Blaze cause an unknown amount of damage.


#3. The First Interstate Bank Fire of 1988 - The First Interstate Bank Building, a 62 - story skyscraper, suffered a fire on May 4-5, 1988. Sixty-four fire companies battled this blaze that last 3 1/2 hours. The fire caused extensive window breakage, which complicated firefighting efforts. Large flames jutted out of the building during the blaze. Firefighting efforts resulted in massive water damage to floors below the fire, and the fire gutted offices from the 12th to the 16th floor, and caused extensive smoke damage to floors above. The fire caused an estimated $200 million in direct property loss.

#4. One Meridian Plaza Fire - One Meridian Plaza, a 38 floor skyscraper, caught on fire the night of Feburary 23, 16 years to the night after the first World Trade Center fire. The blazed raged for 19 HOURS, 11 UNCONTROLLED, gutting eight floors. The damage was estimated at $100,000,000 in direct property loss. Later described by Philadelphia Fire officials as "The most SIGNIFICANT fire of the century." The Fire also caused window breakage, cracking of the granite, and failures of the Spandrel panel connections.

#5. The Caracas Tower Fire - The tallest skyscraper in Caracas, Venezuela experienced a severe fire on October 17, 2004. The blaze began on the 34th floor and spread to over 26 floors, and burned for more than 17 hours. Heat from the fires prevented firefighters from reaching the upper floors, and smoke injured 40 firefighters.

#6. The Windsor Building Fire of Feburary 12, 2005 - The recent fire in the Windsor Building, which was destroyed, in Madrid, Spain. The Windsor fire was MORE intense than all three fires at the World Trade Center on 9-11 COMBINED! Even though the building di experience a partial collapse, it did not have the catastropihc collapse like on 9-11.



These fires burned at 2,000+ degrees fahrenheit, so why didn't these buildings collapse?

Gimme -

I thought the buildings you mentioned were of a different construction (often with different materials, no?), and (perhaps more to the point) didn't have airliners slamming into them?

If that's the basic premise of the towers falling, then it only serves to try and compare like with like, surely?

two F-15 fighters had in fact been scrambled from Otis Air National Guard Base in Cape Cod, MA. Whether this took place before or after the first tower was struck is not clear. In any case it was too late to make a difference. When the second tower was hit the fighters were still 70 miles from Manhattan. We also learned that two F-16 fighters had been scrambled from Langley Air Force Base to try to intercept Flight 77, but they also arrived too late. In fact, they only took off from Langley two minutes before the Boeing 757 smashed into the Pentagon.

So we have to ask ourselves, why did they not scramble from the proper airbase? Andrews AFB is responsible for air defense around Washington. The DC Air National Guard is based there, which is equipped with F-16s. The 113th Wing is based there. According to the Andrews website:

"Training for air combat and operational airlift for national defense is the 113th’s primary mission. However, as part of its dual mission, the 113th provides capable and ready response forces for the District of Columbia in the event of a natural disaster or civil emergency."

When NORAD recieves reports of hijackings from ATC it then sends that information to the proper airbase. It then becomes the airbases commanders job to scramble. Peope assume a scramble means to shoot down the hijacked aircraft. It does not, most cases they are trying to figure out if was accually hijacked or is having some other difficulty. Protocol for the fastmovers is to go to the aircrafts 11:00 o'clock high position so the pilot can see the miltary craft, it then does a wing wag (rocking the fighter with its ailerons) it then does a slow left hand turn, the lost/hijacked aircraft is supposed to follow.

If it does not respond the inteceptor falls into the hikacked crafts 6:00 o'clock low position, and fire a warning shot across the planes bow, far enough in front to not do any harm. The pilot then goes through with the 11:00 o'clock high position trying to get the plane back on course.

If this does not work, the pilot falls into the 6:00 o'clock and contacts his commanding officer for further orders. It is at that point decided wether to shoot down the aircraft or not.

The points you made about what happened was not the truth. This is what was released to th media, and was what was reported in the 9/11 commision report.

The 113th had three F-16's with "hot guns" at Andrews AFB, as always ready to do there job on Sept. 11, 2001. Andrews by the way is the home for Airforce One. It is ALWAYS ready to defend the president and the Capitol. IT is about ten to fifteen miles from the Pentagon.

We fought the cold war for over 40 years. This war with the U.S.S.R. became a race to see who had first strike capabilty. Dont you think we had plans for a hijacking on American soil, by the Soviets that could have a small nuke on board to wipe out the capitol to give them the time they would need to launch there ICBMs, wipe out our ICBMs in Kansas? During that war we thought of everything and made sure this scenario would not happen.

The FAA protocol I layed out was off the top of my head and my memory may not be exact, but I am pretty sure its damn close.

Oops I logged in with my other computer and ended up posting with the wrong account. This was really LoneGunMan!

[edit on 11-8-2005 by Code 3]

I thought the buildings you mentioned were of a different construction (often with different materials, no?

No I think he said the WTC north tower, I would think the materials are the same!

Originally posted by gimmefootball400
Here are some major skyscraper fires in the U.S. before 9-11

#1. The World Trade Center Fire of 1975 - On the night of Feb. 23, 1975. A fire started on the 11th floor of the north tower and spread vetically through openings in the floor slabs. Even though the fire was intensely burning for 4 hours , it did not cause the tower to collapse. Damage was estimated at $2,000,000 dollars.

[edit on 11-8-2005 by LoneGunMan]

Originally posted by twitchy

what precisely does molten aluminum indicate howard? I can melt aluminum in a fireplace fire all day long with no heat damage to the Iron Grating it melts on.

Aluminum melts at around 600 degrees C. At that temperature, steel has lost up to 60 percent of its strength. The key here is what was happening to those long floor trusses at that temperature?

There is no indication whatsoever that the temperatures in the WTC fire were sufficient to cause pools of molten steel,

How do you know that they weren't pools of molten aluminum?

Also, it you heat up aluminum and steel togehter, you get a mixture that melts at a lower temperature.

In fact visual observations would clearly indicate that the fires were oxygen starved,

So there was no oxygen coming into those broken windows and that big hole in the side of the building?

On another note, if the pulverization of the concrete in the falling debris was from weight and pressure as Uncle Sam Claims it was, then why did the pulverization begin at the top of the structures?

So, If a slab of 4" thick lightweight concrete falls 1000 feet, it is not expected to crumble?

Originally posted by gimmefootball400
Here are some major skyscraper fires in the U.S. before 9-11
----

These fires burned at 2,000+ degrees fahrenheit, so why didn't these buildings collapse?

Different structural designs, different fireproofing. The use of concrete core columns. etc.

Apples and Oranges

Also, none of those buildings was hit by a large airliner filled with jet fuel, now were they?

HR please just stop. Did you not read gimmefootballs post? The buildings that burned for hours, some have burned for days. The first one he talked about was WTC north tower, and it burned for four ours with nearly 100 floors of weight above it.

There really is no point in your spin, it kind of looks really more like you are just being a troll. It just goes around in circles with you doesnt it?

Originally posted by LoneGunMan

I thought the buildings you mentioned were of a different construction (often with different materials, no?

No I think he said the WTC north tower, I would think the materials are the same!

Originally posted by gimmefootball400
Here are some major skyscraper fires in the U.S. before 9-11

#1. The World Trade Center Fire of 1975 - On the night of Feb. 23, 1975. A fire started on the 11th floor of the north tower and spread vetically through openings in the floor slabs. Even though the fire was intensely burning for 4 hours , it did not cause the tower to collapse. Damage was estimated at $2,000,000 dollars.

[edit on 11-8-2005 by LoneGunMan]

The sprayed on fireproofing was intact in the '74 fire. Also, I believe that that fire involved some largely vacant floors.

In any event, the buildingwas not hit by an airplane before that fire.

As far as the "proper base" being alerted, where were the planes when the fighters from Otis were scrambled? No one was exactly sure. They had an IDEA of where they were, and Otis was the closest base that had armed fighters ready to launch. Even if they went from Andrews, they couldn't have stopped the two in NY, and by the time they knew the flight was going for the Pentagon it was probably too late to stop it even if they did go from Andrews.

Originally posted by HowardRoark

Originally posted by gimmefootball400
Here are some major skyscraper fires in the U.S. before 9-11
----

These fires burned at 2,000+ degrees fahrenheit, so why didn't these buildings collapse?

Different structural designs, different fireproofing. The use of concrete core columns. etc.

Apples and Oranges

Also, none of those buildings was hit by a large airliner filled with jet fuel, now were they?

Jet fuel is just an accelerent, it does not make the fire burn any hotter. It was not apples and oranges, he mentioned the WTC north tower fire of 1975! It is either one or the other. The heat from the fire did it, or it was because a jet blasted a hole in the building and the fire helped weaken it and bring it down.

Which is it HR? If it was from structure damage then inertia would have biased the building fall.

It takes about 15 minutes to get an F-16 from its hardened bunker to rotation. Andrews is 15 miles away. Flight 77 was known to be hijacked for over 30 minutes AFTER flight 175 struck and it was announced that we were under attack by terrorist.

WHY would Andrews NOT intercept!!

There is no way a building would turn to dust like this from just falling down

Because they weren't tracking the planes until they got close to their targets. They actually saw the flight that hit the Pentagon on radar a couple of minutes before it actually hit. They might have kown it was hijacked, but they only had intermittant contact with it on radar, until it came close to its target, when they were able to track it, which was the last few minutes of its flight.

You have got to be kidding me. You really think that craft was not being tracked by Andrews after it was repoted to be hijacked?!? We can knock out the enemy so they cannot bust a move in any direction. We shut there airforce down with portable euiptment, and you think Andrews, its very existance is to protect the capitol cant track a civilian aircraft with the best equiptment in the world?

Wake up and think for yourself. I know most people do not fully understand how this technology works, but I have a pretty darned good grasp of it. They had to be told to stand down, no other way around it!

Yeah, I'm sure that Andrews tracked that airplane all the way out where it was originally hijacked, until it hit the Pentagon. I too have a pretty good grasp of how it works, and by the time they were tracking the plane it was within minutes of hitting the Pentagon at the speed it was flying at.

Originally posted by HowardRoark
In any event, the buildingwas not hit by an airplane before that fire.

Originally posted by Tinkleflower
I thought the buildings you mentioned were of a different construction (often with different materials, no?), and (perhaps more to the point) didn't have airliners slamming into them?

Neither was building 7!!!

How many time have I pointed that out?

You guys are funny, if we show proof that fire could not have felled the buildings you add the fact that a plane hit WTC 1 & 2...

Sooo again why did building 7 fall when it had minimal damage and only small fires? It's obvious that WTC 7 was "pulled"...And so it stands to reason 1&2 were also "pulled".

Just add up all the contradictions with the "official" version of events, it shouldn't take an expert in anything to see the glaring holes.

Your "fire plus aircraft impact" theory falls flat when you add WTC 7 to the mix.

Originally posted by Zaphod58
Yeah, I'm sure that Andrews tracked that airplane all the way out where it was originally hijacked, until it hit the Pentagon.

I too have a pretty good grasp of how it works, and by the time they were tracking the plane it was within minutes of hitting the Pentagon at the speed it was flying at.

It was being tracked for at least 30 minutes. This after we had two building attacked by hijacked aircraft, what part of this do you not understand?

"08:46: F-15 fighter jets are scrambled from Otis Air Force Base in Massachusetts. Because flight 11's transponder is off, United States Air Force pilots do not know which direction to travel in to meet the plane. NEADS spends the next several minutes watching their radar scopes in anticipation of flight 11 returning a radar contact."

"09:24: The FAA notifies NORAD's Northeast Air Defense Sector about the suspected hijacking of American Airlines flight 77. The FAA and NORAD establish an open line to discuss Flight 77, and shortly thereafter, Flight 93."

"(8:56 a.m.): Flight 77 Transponder Signal Disappears; NORAD Not Informed. Flight 77's transponder signal is turned off at this time. [Guardian, 10/17/01; Boston Globe, 11/23/01; Newsday, 9/23/01] According to the 9/11 Commission, the Indianapolis flight controller in charge of the flight has watched it go off course and head southwest before the signal disappears. He looks for primary radar signals along its projected flight path as well as in the airspace where it has started to turn. He cannot find the plane. He tries contacting the plane but gets no answer."

" Apparently anticipating the need, one commander has already started preparing weapons for the fighters. However, the weapons are located in a bunker on the other side of The Base, and the process takes time. The fighters don't take off for about another hour and a half (10:42 a.m.). Meanwhile, there are also three unarmed F-16 fighters assigned to the Andrews base on a training mission 207 miles to the south in North Carolina. These are not recalled until much later, and don't reach Washington until 10:45 a.m. [Aviation Week and Space Technology, 9/9/02] NORAD commander Major General Larry Arnold has said, “We [didn't] have any aircraft on alert at Andrews.”

" In Syracuse, New York, an Air National Guard commander tells NEADS commander Robert Marr, “Give me ten [minutes] and I can give you hot guns. Give me 30 [minutes] and I'll have heat-seeker [missiles]. Give me an hour and I can give you slammers [Amraams].” Marr replies, “I want it all.” -Note the time it would take to arm the planes.

"Washington flight control notices a new eastbound plane entering its radar with no radio contact and no transponder identification. They do not realize it is Flight 77. They are aware of the hijackings and crashes of Flights 11 and 175, yet they apparently fail to notify anyone about the unidentified plane. [Newsday, 9/23/01; 9/11 Commission Report, 6/17/04] Another report says they never notice it, and it is only noticed when it enters radar coverage of Washington's Dulles International Airport at 9:24 a.m. [Washington Post, 11/3/01] "

" Thus, according to the 9/11 Commission, NORAD is never notified by the FAA about the hijacking of Flight 77, but accidentally learns about it at 9:34 a.m. [9/11 Commission Report, 6/17/04] "

From various timelines of 9/11.

Within minutes of the attack American forces around the world were put on one of their highest states of alert, Defcon 3, which is just two notches short of all-out war. It was then the F-16's from Andrews AFB were in the air over Washington DC. So, Andrews AFB two fighter wings somehow inconceivably waited till after all of the attacks were over to protect our nations capital, Washington D.C.

Two fighter wings. The 3 Falcons that were on a training mission is NOT the same as the two fighter wings that are ready at all times. The story that they only had the three trainers was government spin.