These people do exist or have existed in the netherworld of revolution. The problem is many of them are never presented as they really are (dupes of U.S. & other intelligence agencies).

I hardly think that just because no one was chatting online about this group of people using their popularized name in 1992 means that they did not or do not exist.

Honestly, that's not much evidence...

There's no debate in my mind. Al Quida has never been the international terrorist network we've been told it is.

Think the key question is actually why did the CIA etc take the trouble to make Al Quida appear bigger / more threatening than it ever was.

US Govt has benefitted from Al Quida. OBL even joined in the Bush election campaign.

I'm sure they did/do exist but I think they're more CIA asset than terrorist. Appreciate it's a shock for Yanks that terrorists can be working for their Govt.

We've had 20 years to get used to this phenomemon, hence Brits generally being more cynical where this sort of thing occurs

Cyberkat... we know the OBL WAS a CIA official in the past... which makes me think that he still is one, that he gave his face to the 'cause'... afterall, look at the ties between the bin ladin family and the Bush's... so its plausable. Now i believe also that Bin Ladin is dead... and i think that the CIA has been faking the last few vids and audio bites of him... if he was a CIA official in the past, they'd have plenty of footage of him reading out documents and stuff... and they are so grainy you just cant tell if the sound is in sync of even part of the origional vid...

As for Al Zarqawi... i believe he is a real person, he exists... but who is he? CIA you think? well... thats unlikely i think... i'd say its more likely that he really WAS an insurgent leader... but he was captured early on the in war... so what do the Americans do? The psy-op people decide they need a figure that stands for the insurgency... a figure the American people can villify and be afraid of... so they turn him into this boogieman... now it could be that he's dead... or in captivity... either way, it wouldn't be hard for the Ameircans to turn him into this boogieman... but after the nick berg video in which he supposedly was the one with who did the deed, while WEARING A MASK????) i'd say... he's dead...

my .02

Al-Qaeda have a secret base in a hollowed out volcano on an island in the Pacific. They are planning to take over the infidel governments of the west and their heathen ways with a top secret mind-control ray gun operated from a geostationary satellite in orbit over the equator - codename: Koran.

Bin Laden is their evil leader and mad genius, bent on world domination and control of the last global peak oil reserves, at any cost. Although he is responsible for the worst terrorist attack in history and we have known where he is for the past five years, we can't really be assed to bring him in, so we're letting him plan another attack we can blame and avenge some other minority group for.
One in the hand is worth two in the BUSH!

Don't forget that terror cells are planning world destruction at this very moment, so please keep your fear levels at def con one and keep consuming items you don't really need. Thank you and have a nice day.

[edit on 26-6-2005 by shanti23]

Originally posted by Djarums
I hardly think that just because no one was chatting online about this group of people using their popularized name in 1992 means that they did not or do not exist.

Honestly, that's not much evidence...

This was only one way of trying to back up a claim that they were not well known before the events of september 11th. I feel that if they did conduct terrorist acts that there would be some information about them prior to september 11th.

How far back does al-qaeda go ?

It goes back to 1978 I think thats whenBin Ladens name was first mentioned in any kind of media

Originally posted by metallicabrainz
Cyberkat... we know the OBL WAS a CIA official in the past... which makes me think that he still is one, that he gave his face to the 'cause'... afterall, look at the ties between the bin ladin family and the Bush's... so its plausable. Now i believe also that Bin Ladin is dead... and i think that the CIA has been faking the last few vids and audio bites of him... if he was a CIA official in the past, they'd have plenty of footage of him reading out documents and stuff... and they are so grainy you just cant tell if the sound is in sync of even part of the origional vid...

As for Al Zarqawi... i believe he is a real person, he exists... but who is he? CIA you think? well... thats unlikely i think... i'd say its more likely that he really WAS an insurgent leader... but he was captured early on the in war... so what do the Americans do? The psy-op people decide they need a figure that stands for the insurgency... a figure the American people can villify and be afraid of... so they turn him into this boogieman... now it could be that he's dead... or in captivity... either way, it wouldn't be hard for the Ameircans to turn him into this boogieman... but after the nick berg video in which he supposedly was the one with who did the deed, while WEARING A MASK????) i'd say... he's dead...

my .02

Yes, plausible. After all, these are just theories. Actually, as far as Zarqawi goes, could be CIA, yes? or no. Actually, I have not spent the amount of time researching him as I did Al-Qaeda. Actually I did not spend much time on him at all. What I really think, and this is only what I think, nothing to back it up:

Zirqawi is completely made up. I mean, come on, he has one leg. No, he has two. He was captured and held by the Iraqi's for 9 hours then let go 'cause they didn't know who he was? He managed to leap from a moving truck with one leg? The U.S. Military has almost captured him numerous times, but, ooppps........got away again, etc.....etc..... I think that someone, it doesn't mater who, got hold of a photograph, supposedly 5 years old of a man of Middle Eastern origin (probably some detainee with no family to identify him) shows it periodically on the news, and uses it to personify "terror". I think that they need "him" for that reason, and also as an excuse to invade various areas of Iraq, saying that they spotted Zarqawi here, or there and must get in and capture him.

As far as that old Nick Berg video, all the masked men, including the one who "did the deed" appeared very Western to me. One of them was even wearing California sunglasses! (That was what suggested CIA to me)

hehehe speaking of that, bin laden wears a Timex watch.

I believe the Bush administrations next step will be to say that Al Zarqawi fled to Iran... all the more justification for an attack on Iran. I think the best evidence that Al Zarqawi's role in the insurgency is fictional (and perhaps even his very being) is the very nature of the insurgency and most importantly, HOW it came about... the climate just after the invasion of Iraq was total choas... there were no jobs, no power, no clean water... there was widespread looting, gangs rose and walked the streets stealing and killing for supplies... initially there was no insurgency, just a total lack of law and many many gangs... but as time went on, and the American soldiers 'pissed off' the people, attacks then began specifically against the American occupation... at first just one or two (i think the attack on the UN headquaters was one of the first major attacks, correct me if i'm wrong) and then slowly, but surely, the number of attacks rose and a national movement against the Americans took shape... now the point im making is that, the insurgency is not one organisation with some supreme and 'evil' leader (step in Al Zarqawi) but it is a national ideology, mostly made up of simple criminals or families who have lost a loved one, and i dont believe it has any organised structure throughout the country... it CANT have an organised structure, afterall, it was born out of complete and TOTAL chaos... therefore i can't imagine it 'naturally' having any supreme leader unless the Americans invented and puplicised that leader... and the really clever thing (for Bush and co.) is that, just like with Al Quieda, by puplicising the concept of an iraqi insurgency, by declaring war on it, by inventing its leaders... you are actually CREATING or materialising that organisation or insurgency... from myth into reality... because people will hear on the news about this movement and give their life to it, thinking its real... thus making it real... today of course, the insurgency is very real, its taking lives... but its leader, Al Zarqawi, is merely a puppet, perhaps a fictional one at that.

Once again, there is NO way that one man alone amidst the chaos of the aftermath of the iraqi invasion could rise to such a position of power as 'leader of the insurgency', nor could he effectively control that insurgency anyway... i mean, come on, Al Zarqawi... who was he before the invasion anway? a big, fat NOBODY...nope... no way in hell is he for real...

Lastly, it is very worrying that the Bush administration would purposefully invent Al Zarqawi and purposefully fuel the insurgent fire... clearly the Bush administration needs a reason to stay in Iraq, and the insurgency provides just that reason...

Al-qaeda is probably a figment of the western press. Technically speaking that is. Al-qaeda means "the base" in Arabic. It is actually a collection of many small terrorist cells that have formed an alliance against a common enemy. Zarqawi (or however you spell the b@stard's name) is the leader of a group called "The Al-qaeda in Iraq" that is allied with OBL. Al-qaeda is not one group, but an alliance. Think of Al-qaeda more like NATO and less like the Symbonese Liberation Front or the IRA.

As far as OBL, he's 100% real. His past is very well documented. Clinton tried to have him killed several times but each time he either (a) lacked the cahones to authorize the attack or (b) just missed him by a few hours. OBL has been hunted by the US much longer than Bush has been in offoce. Sorry Bush-bashers, it's true.

I have a friend Ive known for 13 years now who went over to Afghanistan pre American invasion to go to a Muslim teching camp. He left as as soon as they started teaching people how to use explosives and guns. He came back to Britain and not long after the Americans went in and the whole camp was arrested. Everyone of those people are in Camp X-Ray at this very moment.

As for Bin Ladens watch, c'mon you are grasping at straws there. I wear my watch on to pof my wrist and bottom. Sometimes that changes throughout the day.

Originally posted by Djarums
I hardly think that just because no one was chatting online about this group of people using their popularized name in 1992 means that they did not or do not exist.

Honestly, that's not much evidence...

Djarums,
You're a smart guy. Most of the Rumsfeldian version of events are pure fiction. Are Osama and Zarqawi real people? Of course they are. But are they what our government truly presents them as? Are they really guilty of these crimes they are accused of? Could they actually be?

If you answer yes, than you have to concede that our intelligence appartus doesn't have the ability to catch these thugs. I reject that. There is some very good reason why these cretins are not sitting in chains right now. The reason is, this is all an elaborate fiction Not what's happening on the ground in Iraq, but the motivations driving this campaign.

After the end of the cold war, the military/industrial complex and the US government needed an external threat, an enemy for the ages. So their conglomerate of nefarious participants took part in Operation Northwoods 2001 and wrested civil control from civilized people.

It's as easy as that. And now we're bogged down in Iraq b/c of this fiction foisted upon us.

I find it a bit hard to believe that a question like this would be posted.

No, Iv'e not met the men and their cut heads off style or Okying the killing of people trying to get to or at work.

I just can't understand why this particular post was posted?

Dallas