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God Vs Secret Societies

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posted on Jun, 25 2005 @ 09:54 PM
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GOD VS SECRET SOCIETIES

Ive had this discussion many times with friends and family, but i thought id bring it to this particular round table we call ATS to see what you all think about it...

Secret Societies:

Secret Societies such as the Illuminati, the Bilderbergs etc etc have been going around for years and it is a well held belief that these groups are nothing more than hearsay and conspiracy theory, people who believe in them are to be either ignored or ridiculed as happens so many times.

There is "evidence" to support the claims of the theorists but nothing concrete.

There is "evidence" against the claims of the theorists but nothing concrete.

It is because of this that they forever remain speculation and folklore, if there was just some solid, tangible evidence to say one way or the other we could either cast them off once and for all as rubbish, or we could finally know for a fact that they exist, im sure most of us would like an answer someday, one way or the other!

God:

Like Secret Societies, the belief in a "God" and religion have been around for years and years and years and.... you get the point, and over the years different religions have formed, different Gods have been worshipped and all based on a Holy Book of some sort, "The Bible", "The Quran" etc etc. These books show the stories and teachings of these religions and upon this people have placed their faith and worshipped their God!

And i ask WHY???

Like Secret Societies, God and religion have "evidence" which shows Jesus existed for example, but nothing concrete.

Science has PROVEN evolution happened, which completely destroys the notion of most if not all religion, so WHY do over 90% of the people on this planet still believe in what has been PROVEN not to exist, cause last time i checked christians werent claiming evolution happened AND God put us here!

So i ask each and everyone of the members here, religious or not, to share their view, WHY are the illuminati and the many "Secret Societies" treated with contempt as if they were some half baked idea cooked up by some nutcase somewhere years ago when essentially they are groups of power hungry humans.

We've seen throughout history plenty of power hungry humans, so why is it not logical or reasonable to think that the illuminati exist when it apparently IS logical and reasonable to believe in God and the notion we all descended from Adam and Eve when it has been PROVEN that evolution took place???

Answers on a postcard please......




posted on Jun, 25 2005 @ 10:21 PM
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Secret societies, such as the Illuminati, and organizations which are not actually secret societies but are still trated as such by conspiracy theorists are viewed upon with such contempt by two kinds of people for two different reasons:

1. By skeptics and "thinking" people because there is NO EVIDENCE whatsoever to suggest that the Illuminati, for example, exists in any way, shape or form.

2. By conspiracy theorists and believers because they are angry that supposed power-hungry individuals or favoritism-granting organizations are teaming up against them to try to do whatever kinds of crazy things to average people. If it can be imagined, it can be possible, according to them.

I personally say this: Many "secret societies" are looked upon with contempt because they are misunderstood. The truly evil conspirators are not out in the public like the organizations that conspiracy theorists target. Freemasonry, Bilderbergers, etc are all WAY too public to effectively be secret societies.


[edit on 25-6-2005 by sebatwerk]



posted on Jun, 25 2005 @ 10:41 PM
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Originally posted by sebatwerk
Secret societies, such as the Illuminati, and organizations which are not actually secret societies but are still trated as such by conspiracy theorists are viewed upon with such contempt by two kinds of people for two different reasons:

1. By skeptics and "thinking" people because there is NO EVIDENCE whatsoever to suggest that the Illuminati, for example, exists in any way, shape or form.


Are you trying to say people who believe they DO or MAY exist do not think? and are not thinking people? Because i heavily disagree with that!

What do you class as evidence? If i told the police i knew an illuminatus and all these secrets about the illuminati that would be DOCUMENTED EVIDENCE, doesnt make it true or accurate but still evidence, thats why i specifically said 'Evidence' and 'Concrete Evidence'

The Bible etc is an example of this, there is NOTHING to PROVE the Bible is telling the truth, so why should it be believed or its teachings taken seriously when there is nothing credible to say that the person/persons who authored it are credible trustworthy people? Do you know who 'wrote' the bible, is their a person/persons who we can PROVE existed and we can PROVE wrote it? I Think not, so you have no valid argument on this point.


Originally posted by sebatwerk
2. By conspiracy theorists and believers because they are angry that supposed power-hungry individuals or favoritism-granting organizations are teaming up against them to try to do whatever kinds of crazy things to average people. If it can be imagined, it can be possible, according to them.


This as a standalone point i agree with, this is probably the main reason that secret societies are held with contempt by theorists.

Tied in with the Vs God theme, it doesnt answer any questions though?



Originally posted by sebatwerk
I personally say this: Many "secret societies" are looked upon with contempt because they are misunderstood. The truly evil conspirators are not out in the public like the organizations that conspiracy theorists target. Freemasonry, Bilderbergers, etc are all WAY too public to effectively be secret societies.



I agree in part here, almost everyone knows the name "Illuminati" or atleast most do (atleast youd like to think that people werent that sheltered) but that doesnt mean that they are WAY too public, because as youve said we dont know anything CONCRETE about them, IF they do exist. And if we dont know much about them except for whispers and rumours how can we properly assess any motives or whether they are good-intentioned or not



posted on Jun, 25 2005 @ 10:51 PM
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Originally posted by DigitalTwisted
Are you trying to say people who believe they DO or MAY exist do not think? and are not thinking people? Because i heavily disagree with that!


I am saying that people who believe this are not really analyzing the situation logically and rationally. They are allowing themselves, through fear and anger, to be manipulated by money-hungry authors and well-intentioned but similarly ignorant theorists.



What do you class as evidence?


The American Heritage Dictionary defines evidence as being "A thing or things helpful in forming a conclusion or judgment". There is no such thing available to demonstrate the existence of the Illuminati or any other mythical secret society.



The Bible etc is an example of this, there is NOTHING to PROVE the Bible is telling the truth, so why should it be believed or its teachings taken seriously when there is nothing credible to say that the person/persons who authored it are credible trustworthy people?


The Bible is taken seriously because it is (mostly) a good guide for living one's life. Even if we don't believe the stories within it, our morals and our values tell us that what the Bible says makes sense. It is a logical and rational application of morals to live one's life.



but that doesnt mean that they are WAY too public, because as youve said we dont know anything CONCRETE about them, IF they do exist. And if we dont know much about them except for whispers and rumours


No, we know NOTHING about them. Up until now, all ANYONE has done is THEORIZE about them, and these theories are based on fictional accounts and people's imagination.



posted on Jun, 25 2005 @ 11:18 PM
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Originally posted by sebatwerk
I am saying that people who believe this are not really analyzing the situation logically and rationally. They are allowing themselves, through fear and anger, to be manipulated by money-hungry authors and well-intentioned but similarly ignorant theorists.


Well I believe they MAY exist, but i do not fear what MAY exist and im not angered by what MAY exist, and my opinion on this is based on EXTENSIVE reading of books, crawling the net, video and based on the EVIDENCE given in these theories / Documentaries i have based my logical and rational opinion on it, and that is, that they MAY exist, in some shape or form, big or small



What do you class as evidence?


The American Heritage Dictionary defines evidence as being "A thing or things helpful in forming a conclusion or judgment". There is no such thing available to demonstrate the existence of the Illuminati or any other mythical secret society.


I already gave an example in the above post of me declaring evidence to the police, if i gave that statement which i mentioned above, that document would be a "thing helpful in forming a conclusion or judgement", the problem here is that we dont know how to decypher whats pure fiction and whats pure fact, its a grey area, and thats why my "evidence" couldnt be trusted but couldnt just be chucked out either



The Bible etc is an example of this, there is NOTHING to PROVE the Bible is telling the truth, so why should it be believed or its teachings taken seriously when there is nothing credible to say that the person/persons who authored it are credible trustworthy people?


The Bible is taken seriously because it is (mostly) a good guide for living one's life. Even if we don't believe the stories within it, our morals and our values tell us that what the Bible says makes sense. It is a logical and rational application of morals to live one's life.


If you wanted people to conform to the way of life your proposing, wouldnt something that hits home the morals and principles that the people of that culture value be a great tool in doing that? Thats what the Bible does, your basically saying because it tells us what we want to hear it should be valued, whatever % of the world is christian are trained to live to this way of life because it tells them what they want to hear, but the harsh reality is, that theres NOTHING to say it isnt a scam, a hoax, or for all we know an illuminati plant to brainwash people into thinking a certain way, so they can be sheep for the illuminatis power struggle! WHO KNOWS, WE DONT! and thats the point here, why is the bible to be believed anymore than stories of an "illuminati" which wants world power?



but that doesnt mean that they are WAY too public, because as youve said we dont know anything CONCRETE about them, IF they do exist. And if we dont know much about them except for whispers and rumours


No, we know NOTHING about them. Up until now, all ANYONE has done is THEORIZE about them, and these theories are based on fictional accounts and people's imagination.


This is true but, taking the same logical approach you have, the same could be said about God and religion, people are believing in something based on a piece of fiction. There is NO PROOF, NO EVIDENCE to say the bible is the word of a God, so therefore until there is, it must be considered fiction? But it is not, people believe it as FACT or they make their own interpretation based on its teachings and worship the God in their own way!

Do this with the illuminati and people like yourself are there to say NO its rubbish no proof, no proof, and the point of this thread is to ask WHY? why is that?

They walk hand in hand, their circumstances are identical yet they are like chalk and cheese in peoples eyes, and thats just ignorance



posted on Jun, 26 2005 @ 01:49 AM
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Originally posted by sebatwerk
The Bible is taken seriously because it is (mostly) a good guide for living one's life. Even if we don't believe the stories within it, our morals and our values tell us that what the Bible says makes sense. It is a logical and rational application of morals to live one's life.


Or, rather, it might be if it did not encourage the worship of the wrathful, hateful, genocidal, child murdering, misogynistic, racist, homophobic, blood sacrifice loving, death obsessed demiurge known to most Christians, Muslims and Jews as God. But hey, just don't read those parts.



posted on Jun, 27 2005 @ 03:18 AM
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Originally posted by JonestownRed

Originally posted by sebatwerk
The Bible is taken seriously because it is (mostly) a good guide for living one's life. Even if we don't believe the stories within it, our morals and our values tell us that what the Bible says makes sense. It is a logical and rational application of morals to live one's life.


Or, rather, it might be if it did not encourage the worship of the wrathful, hateful, genocidal, child murdering, misogynistic, racist, homophobic, blood sacrifice loving, death obsessed demiurge known to most Christians, Muslims and Jews as God. But hey, just don't read those parts.


Well said!!



posted on Jun, 27 2005 @ 03:28 AM
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Originally posted by JonestownRed
Or, rather, it might be if it did not encourage the worship of the wrathful, hateful, genocidal, child murdering, misogynistic, racist, homophobic, blood sacrifice loving, death obsessed demiurge known to most Christians, Muslims and Jews as God. But hey, just don't read those parts.


There's different interpretations for the Bible... your description above is from a very fundamental and literal interpretation, and we all know that this is not what the Bible was intended for. But the Bible teaches the same important "life lessons" as do all other major religions. It teaches us and reminds us what we should already know, and this is why I say that it is a guide to a good life.



posted on Jun, 27 2005 @ 09:09 AM
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Originally posted by sebatwerk
The truly evil conspirators are not out in the public like the organizations that conspiracy theorists target. Freemasonry, Bilderbergers, etc are all WAY too public to effectively be secret societies.


Actually there is a lot of wisdom in that statement. You and I and probably anyone else on this forum is not going to be aware of any truly secret society. Clearly if such a society were discovered, it would do whatever it takes to cover its tracks (change its name, meeting location, etc).

Personally, with all of the chaos and conflict in the world, I find it very unlikely that there is some powerful group pulling all of the strings "behind the scenes".



posted on Jun, 27 2005 @ 10:51 AM
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Originally posted by DigitalTwistedScience has PROVEN evolution happened, which completely destroys the notion of most if not all religion

This is entirely wrong. Evolutionary Theory has not been 'proven', no theories are ever proven, however Evolutionary Theory is so increibly well supported and well tested that it would practically be 'perverse to reject it' at this point. Nevertheless, Evolutionary Theory does not disprove any religion, its doesn't even touch on the reality of any religions, science does not trump faith, nor does it claim to.

cause last time i checked christians werent claiming evolution happened AND God put us here!

I suggest you check agian. Most evolutionists are infact christians who have no problems being faithful christians and scientists.

why is it not logical or reasonable to think that the illuminati exist when it apparently IS logical and reasonable to believe in God and

People beleive in god because of faith, that is, irrational beleif, beleif without evidence. So, indeed, people that beleive in the illuminati seem to be actingin a similar way, there is no evidence that the illuminati continue to exist, and yet people beleive it, looking for 'signs' and using numerology and the like to 'prove' it, just like gods.


What do you class as evidence?

I think we can all agree that evidence for an idea is that which rationally and reasonably can be said to support that idea. So an official statement, logged in police records, of someone saying that the illuminati are alive and well today can't really be said to be evidence for their existence, because it'd be unreasonable to think that that supports their existence.

so why should it be believed or its teachings taken seriously when there is nothing credible to say that the person/persons who authored it are credible trustworthy people?

There is no reason. Faith is not rational and reasonable, its irrational and mystical. A person's faith can't be swayed by evidence.

and my opinion on this is based on EXTENSIVE reading of books, crawling the net, video and based on the EVIDENCE given in these theories / Documentaries

Ok, so in your opinion they exist. You personally beleive that they exist, but you don't have any evidence that can reasonably demonstrate that they do exist. You've seen enough personally to say 'this can't be ignored, they exist', but you can't sum it up and present it in a coherent way to demonstrate that the illuminati exist.

that document would be a "thing helpful in forming a conclusion or judgement",

Not it wouldn't, because its just a statement that's been officially recorded. It wouldn't be helpful in deciding anything, because it could very easily be completely made up or completely wrong. Hence, its not really evidence.

thats why my "evidence" couldnt be trusted but couldnt just be chucked out either

It has to be chucked out, because its useless as evidence. It can't help one way or another.

[edit on 27-6-2005 by Nygdan]



posted on Jun, 27 2005 @ 11:52 AM
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Originally posted by sebatwerk
There's different interpretations for the Bible... your description above is from a very fundamental and literal interpretation, and we all know that this is not what the Bible was intended for. But the Bible teaches the same important "life lessons" as do all other major religions. It teaches us and reminds us what we should already know, and this is why I say that it is a guide to a good life.


I'm not sure anyone can really say for certain what the bible was intended for, but the first half would appear to do as I claimed above, as well as keep an ancient people under control by the use of fear. And although I would agree with you that one can learn important life lessons from the bible, I can only imagine how many bad lessons one could learn if not subscribing to the the sanitized modern versions of religion based on the book, or like yourself, refusing to take the bible at face value. Does anyone really need the bible to tell them that lying, cheating, stealing, raping, and killing are wrong? If so, I pity that person, and their inability to form opinions from objective thought.



posted on Jun, 27 2005 @ 12:07 PM
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Originally posted by JonestownRed
And although I would agree with you that one can learn important life lessons from the bible, I can only imagine how many bad lessons one could learn if not subscribing to the the sanitized modern versions of religion based on the book, or like yourself, refusing to take the bible at face value.


Part of the problem is that in Christianity, you're missing all of the extra commentary on the Bible - not to mention a decent translation that is not a translation of a translation - that exists in the Jewish tradition (and predates Christianity). There is a bigger picture out there and it is very difficult - or impossible - to understand much of what you call the "Old Testament" without the rest.



posted on Jun, 27 2005 @ 01:59 PM
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Originally posted by JonestownRed
And although I would agree with you that one can learn important life lessons from the bible, I can only imagine how many bad lessons one could learn if not subscribing to the the sanitized modern versions of religion based on the book, or like yourself, refusing to take the bible at face value.


This is exactly what leads to the formation of extremist and fundamentalist groups. If you think extremists only exist in Islam, think again. There are MANY "Christians" who are the western Christian equivalent of a Taliban. Make no doubt about it, some people KNOW their version of christianity is the only correct version, and are out to force YOU to believe it as well..



Does anyone really need the bible to tell them that lying, cheating, stealing, raping, and killing are wrong?


Hence my claim that the Bible teaches us OBVIOUS morals and values.



posted on Jun, 27 2005 @ 04:05 PM
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Originally posted by Nygdan
cause last time i checked christians werent claiming evolution happened AND God put us here!

I suggest you check agian. Most evolutionists are infact christians who have no problems being faithful christians and scientists.


Well ive talked to many of them, and they all tell me, that evolution is absolute rubbish, God put us here, not some Big Bang.

How can u possibly state AS FACT that "Most" evolutionists are christians, do you have the evidence to show this?

God + Bible = Adam + Eve

Evolution = No Adam + Eve, so how can people who believe in the teachings of christ and the bible, be evolutionists aswell?

If thats the case they must constantly be fighting amongst themselves, they must be the type of people that could start a fight in an empty room?



Originally posted by Nygdan
why is it not logical or reasonable to think that the illuminati exist when it apparently IS logical and reasonable to believe in God and

People beleive in god because of faith, that is, irrational beleif, beleif without evidence. So, indeed, people that beleive in the illuminati seem to be actingin a similar way, there is no evidence that the illuminati continue to exist, and yet people beleive it, looking for 'signs' and using numerology and the like to 'prove' it, just like gods.


I knew that, thats quite obvious, my point was certain people here like to ram their view down other peoples throats on the subject of the illuminati, i just wondered why this was, yet as youve explained above its the exact same situation as religion, and yet it doesnt happen with religious people, its a double standard on ATS which i wanted to address.....................still i have no answer to the question though


What do you class as evidence?



Originally posted by Nygdan
I think we can all agree that evidence for an idea is that which rationally and reasonably can be said to support that idea. So an official statement, logged in police records, of someone saying that the illuminati are alive and well today can't really be said to be evidence for their existence, because it'd be unreasonable to think that that supports their existence.


And why not?

If there was a court case to prove the illuminati existed, and i gave a statement in court, my statement would be taken as evidence, a jury may decide that the "evidence" doesnt have enough to support it, but that doesnt make it any less a piece of evidence. and thats IS a FACT! (Uncle is a lawyer)

Again my point here was, some people claim NO EVIDENCE exists, bollocks of course it does, it just isnt concrete.



so why should it be believed or its teachings taken seriously when there is nothing credible to say that the person/persons who authored it are credible trustworthy people?



Originally posted by Nygdan
There is no reason. Faith is not rational and reasonable, its irrational and mystical. A person's faith can't be swayed by evidence.


Again, this doesnt answer my question as to why its a double standard between God + religion / illuminati + secret societies, i said what is quoted above to emphasise my point, but again people are so blinkered rather than answering the real quesyion behind this thread, they just try to give me answers to questions i already know!

Think about the context before answering!

EDIT: On reflection, can i also add the "Sebatwerk" is always asking for Logic and Reason to be applied to the illuminati subject. DOUBLE STANDARD ALERT. If the same was done with religion and religious people, then i wouldnt have started this thread, but apparently its somehow acceptable to have blind faith in all knowing being, who created us all, but it is considered ridiculous to have blind faith that illuminati exist! DOUBLE STANDARD!!!!!!!!

Dont ram opinions about the illuminati down peoples throats if you arent going to be consistent across the board. (PLEASE NOTE THIS / THESE ARE GENERAL STATEMENTS AND NOT A DIG AT ANY INDIVIDUAL, I USE SEBATWERKS NAME AS HE IS THE MAIN PERSON I HAVE SEEN DOING THIS AND SO IS THE ONLY EXAMPLE "EVIDENCE" I CAN GIVE)


and my opinion on this is based on EXTENSIVE reading of books, crawling the net, video and based on the EVIDENCE given in these theories / Documentaries



Originally posted by Nygdan
Ok, so in your opinion they exist. You personally beleive that they exist, but you don't have any evidence that can reasonably demonstrate that they do exist. You've seen enough personally to say 'this can't be ignored, they exist', but you can't sum it up and present it in a coherent way to demonstrate that the illuminati exist.


Ofcourse not, no one has, BUT no one has evidence to PROVE they DO NOT exist, until something is proven to exist or proven not to exist, then people have the right to discuss the subject without fear of ridicule and the double standard i speak of, again you havent said anything new, or got us any closer to answer with this


that document would be a "thing helpful in forming a conclusion or judgement",



Originally posted by Nygdan
Not it wouldn't, because its just a statement that's been officially recorded. It wouldn't be helpful in deciding anything, because it could very easily be completely made up or completely wrong. Hence, its not really evidence.


Absolute rubbish, that is for a judge or jury to decide, people have lied in court or told their story and the jury dont believe them. Just because evidence cant be backed up with other evidence to conclusively prove something doesnt mean it is not evidence, stop spouting such absolute garbage, as ive already said my uncle is a lawyer and i have consulted him many times since this thread started in this subject and i KNOW 100% that i am right here, so please no more silly posts like this please.


thats why my "evidence" couldnt be trusted but couldnt just be chucked out either



Originally posted by NygdanIt has to be chucked out, because its useless as evidence. It can't help one way or another.


Already proven twice that this is complete twaddle, take off the broken record



[edit on 27/6/05 by DigitalTwisted]



posted on Jun, 27 2005 @ 04:19 PM
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Originally posted by sebatwerk

Originally posted by JonestownRed
And although I would agree with you that one can learn important life lessons from the bible, I can only imagine how many bad lessons one could learn if not subscribing to the the sanitized modern versions of religion based on the book, or like yourself, refusing to take the bible at face value.


This is exactly what leads to the formation of extremist and fundamentalist groups. If you think extremists only exist in Islam, think again. There are MANY "Christians" who are the western Christian equivalent of a Taliban. Make no doubt about it, some people KNOW their version of christianity is the only correct version, and are out to force YOU to believe it as well..


See this is the problem, blind faith in YOUR OWN INTERPRETATION of the Bible, if you read anything and take it out of context you could miss the point completely, hence this is WHY the bible, although evidence for religion, would be dismissed as a valid context is required, in written or oral evidence given, with no universally accepted frame of context for the bible, it shouldnt be taken seriously in any way shape or form.................IF we are applying the same standards to God/Religion as we are to the illuminati

BUT DAMN WE AREN'T!!!!!!

So we better just read the bible, make our own assumptions on it, and then live our life by it blindly..............talk about the blind leading the blind

[edit on 27/6/05 by DigitalTwisted]



posted on Jun, 27 2005 @ 04:29 PM
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This thread started out nicely, a breath of fresh air in this forum. Let's continue that way please.



posted on Jun, 27 2005 @ 10:11 PM
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Originally posted by DigitalTwisted
See this is the problem, blind faith in YOUR OWN INTERPRETATION of the Bible, if you read anything and take it out of context you could miss the point completely, hence this is WHY the bible, although evidence for religion, would be dismissed as a valid context is required, in written or oral evidence given, with no universally accepted frame of context for the bible, it shouldnt be taken seriously in any way shape or form...


I don't know who you're talking about here, but I assure you that I have no blind faith in the Bible. Taken in the context of today's morals and standards, it is a GREAT guidebook for living life.



So we better just read the bible, make our own assumptions on it, and then live our life by it blindly..............talk about the blind leading the blind


Or we could LEARN from it, just like we can learn from the Koran, Torah and any other holy book or religion which teaches the same kinds of standards. All religions have something worth learning, and have some bit of truth to them. No one religion is un-erring, and no one religion is completely wrong. Let's put all the pieces together.



posted on Jun, 28 2005 @ 03:55 AM
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Originally posted by sebatwerk
Or we could LEARN from it, just like we can learn from the Koran, Torah and any other holy book or religion which teaches the same kinds of standards. All religions have something worth learning, and have some bit of truth to them. No one religion is un-erring, and no one religion is completely wrong. Let's put all the pieces together.


That's so true, but it's also an idea that is downright frightening to a fundamentalist (of any religion).



posted on Jun, 28 2005 @ 11:04 AM
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Originally posted by sebatwerk
Or we could LEARN from it, just like we can learn from the Koran, Torah and any other holy book or religion which teaches the same kinds of standards. All religions have something worth learning, and have some bit of truth to them. No one religion is un-erring, and no one religion is completely wrong. Let's put all the pieces together.


Yes, perhaps we can... but what makes these "holy" books any more worthy of consideration than any other? Certainly one could take the best parts from Mein Kampf, a biography of Caligula, and perhaps Jonathan Swift's "A Modest Proposal" and find a large amount of life lessons worth learning. Certainly these books contain a bit of truth as well! The only reason the books you mentioned are considered important (other than for historical purposes) is because people DO believe they are un-erring, and are completely right.



posted on Jun, 28 2005 @ 03:18 PM
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Let say evolution is real (IMO it is and has been proven many time) well who created all the stuff in the first place so that it can evolve?

Why is it that a lot of people dont seem to be able to accept that there is a god and there is evolution?

Couldn’t' evolution just be part of gods plan to create or change things







 
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