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Which Flag Would Jesus Burn?

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posted on Jun, 25 2005 @ 07:26 AM
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The flag amendment which just passed the House by a huge margin, and which may pass in the Senate this time around and even become a part of the Constitution, was predictable.



After all, the last refuge of a scoundrel is patriotism, and the scoundrels infesting the capital, who put this country into an unwinnable and pointless war based upon lies, along with the gutless sycophants in Congress who backed them, are now being increasingly called to account by an American public finally grown weary of the war and the lies.

The joke is that the flag is desecrated daily for commercial purposes, waving proudly in front of the corporate headquarters of war profiteers like Haliburton, Lockheed Martin, Boeing, Bechtel, GE, Westinghouse and Exxon Mobil, and the homes of tax cheats like disgraced Tyco CEO Dennis Kozlowski. It decorates all manner of commercial products from the backsides of women’s shorts to a line of patriotic condoms.

What a pathetic joke it will be for future schoolchildren, reading the high-minded and carefully crafted words of the Constitution, with its careful detailing of the branches of government, the delineation of powers, the enumeration of the rights of the citizenry and the banning of slavery, when they come to this cheap amendment telling them that the beautiful First Amendment guaranteeing free speech which they read earlier is not really true: If they want to protest government actions by burning a piece of red, white and blue cloth, they can be locked up.

Article by Dave Lindroff

Source:
CounterPunch

After all the Holy Qu'ran Desecration Stories that circled the globe, and enflamed protests among the Muslim Communities.

Angry protestors in America started to Burn the American Flag.

Apparently they wont be able to do this act anymore in the near Future.

First Amedment looses all its Meaning here.

[edit on 25/6/05 by Souljah]




posted on Jun, 25 2005 @ 08:04 AM
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free speech is free speech, but it doesn't mean you can go around protesting how you like...burning a flag would be protest using violence...which isn't free speech. in england if deface money with the queens head on, lets say 'burn a £5 note' then thats supposed to be against the law...its nothing about free speech. you could say because of free speech you have the right to kick the s**t out of someone who's muslim, or black and so on if you're a white christian...whats the problem its free speech, i have the right to express myself how i want and freely. wrong.



posted on Jun, 25 2005 @ 08:23 AM
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Which flag would Jesus burn? None of them.
He wasn't a politician. He was interested in
SOULS not POLITICS. His followers wanted
to crown him King. He said his kingdom wasn't
of this world and he refused.

No politics ... only souls.
Give to Ceaser what is Ceaser's, give to God what is God's.
Answer - he wouldn't have bothered to burn any flags.



[edit on 6/25/2005 by FlyersFan]



posted on Jun, 25 2005 @ 08:48 AM
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Originally posted by shaunybaby
free speech is free speech, but it doesn't mean you can go around protesting how you like...burning a flag would be protest using violence...which isn't free speech. in england if deface money with the queens head on, lets say 'burn a £5 note' then thats supposed to be against the law...its nothing about free speech. you could say because of free speech you have the right to kick the s**t out of someone who's muslim, or black and so on if you're a white christian...whats the problem its free speech, i have the right to express myself how i want and freely. wrong.

So, what is then Freedom of Speech?

The Amendement is pretty much Clear:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

And lets not forget that Flag Burning has a History in the States - and that these few Muslims that burned the falg recently, have not done anything new.



The divisive issue of flag burning as a form of protest came before the Supreme Court in 1989, as it decided Texas v. Johnson. The Supreme Court reversed the conviction of Gregory Johnson for burning the flag by a vote of five to four. Justice William J. Brennan, Jr. asserted that "if there is a bedrock principle underlying the First Amendment, it is that government may not prohibit the expression of an idea simply because society finds the idea offensive or disagreeable." Many in Congress vilified the decision of the Court. The House unanimously passed a resolution denouncing the Court; the Senate did the same with only three dissents. Congress passed a federal law barring flag burning, but the Supreme Court struck it down as well in United States v. Eichman (1990). Many attempts have been made to amend the Constitution to allow Congress to prohibit the desecration of the flag. Since 1995, the Amendment has consistently mustered sufficient votes to pass in the House of Representatives, but not in the Senate. Most recently, in 2000, the Senate voted 63–37 in favor of the amendment, which fell four votes short of the requisite two-thirds majority.

Wikipedia


Isnt Flag Burning Freedom of Expression?

So, why cant these people Express their Anger towards the American Goverment by Burning the Flag?

If there were massive protests where People would Publicly Burn Holy Qu'ran, what would that make it, since Holy Qu'ran is not protected by the New Amendment?

Apart from Angering Muslims of the World, would it break any Laws in the US, since the Freedom of Expression ALLOWS You to Burn Holy Qu'ran?

[edit on 25/6/05 by Souljah]



posted on Jun, 25 2005 @ 08:55 AM
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Originally posted by FlyersFan
Which flag would Jesus burn? None of them.
He wasn't a politician. He was interested in
SOULS not POLITICS. His followers wanted
to crown him King. He said his kingdom wasn't
of this world and he refused.

Politicans dont Burn Flags - they Approve of the Laws, how its Illegal to Burn them.

Its the People who Burn Flags - common people, that want to express themselves.

Jesus was in my Opinion a Revoultionary - thats why he was Loved by the people and Hated by the Goverment.

But you are right, he wasnt a Politician.

And Politicians dont burn Flags - Common People do.



posted on Jun, 25 2005 @ 09:02 AM
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What if they just decriminalized flag burning but it was still legal? For example, you burn a flag, cop rolls up, gives you a ticket for starting a fire within city limits, BAM 600 dollars, BUT you don't go to jail.

Seems more likely, and it wouldn't be dismantling the first amendment because it would be the action of the parties involved and the result of their action which condemned them, not their speech itself.

Should the KKK be allowed to burn crosses in black neighborhoods? What if flag burning started to really incite feelings of hostility in people are started riots, should it still be defended? Would you really want the "freedom" to burn a flag (WHOOPEEE!?) if it traded off with your personal safety?



posted on Jun, 25 2005 @ 09:14 AM
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Originally posted by CaptainJailew
What if they just decriminalized flag burning but it was still legal? For example, you burn a flag, cop rolls up, gives you a ticket for starting a fire within city limits, BAM 600 dollars, BUT you don't go to jail.

Good Point!





Seems more likely, and it wouldn't be dismantling the first amendment because it would be the action of the parties involved and the result of their action which condemned them, not their speech itself.

But that still isnt the Freedom of Speech - since you are not Free do Express yourself and your Opinion, you still get Punished for that, only this time with a Mild Punishment.

That is kind of the same Tune, only Slower.



Should the KKK be allowed to burn crosses in black neighborhoods? What if flag burning started to really incite feelings of hostility in people are started riots, should it still be defended? Would you really want the "freedom" to burn a flag (WHOOPEEE!?) if it traded off with your personal safety?

Hmmmmm, I wonder why they never tried to pass a law against Cross Burning - since it is Clearly Desecrating the entire institution of the Church.

And People dont start Riots because they are Bored and have nothing to do - usually that kind of Events try to tell us that someting is terribly wrong in the Society.

But then again, there will be More and More Laws approved, and that only means one thing:

More Laws - More Corrupt Society.



posted on Jun, 25 2005 @ 09:22 AM
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Which Flag Would Jesus Burn?

None of them...Jesus would not bring himself down to that level and act in such a childish, unprofessional and disrespectful manner.




[edit on 25/6/2005 by SportyMB]



posted on Jun, 25 2005 @ 09:38 AM
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The title of this thread needs to be changed...or was it just a ploy to get more attention?

Very cheap...I would expect better from you, souljah.


Oh yeah, my "on topic" answer...
almost exactly what flyersfan said.


[edit on 25-6-2005 by BadMojo]



posted on Jun, 25 2005 @ 09:48 AM
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Originally posted by Souljah



Originally posted by Souljah

But that still isnt the Freedom of Speech - since you are not Free do Express yourself and your Opinion, you still get Punished for that, only this time with a Mild Punishment.

That is kind of the same Tune, only Slower.


So what if someone feels that burning down their own house should be within their constitutional rights? Blowing up their car within city limits? Shooting out their windows with a perfectly legal semi-automatic assault rifle with rounds which could go through walls into other homes?

At what point do we disallow freedom of speech for the (physical and mental) safety and well-being of the majority, certainly a line has to be drawn somewhere. The KKK attempted to justify their cross-burnings by calling them family barbecues or something like that, and yet they still were prevented from continuing to practice their rituals of hate because it threatened and made people scared for their lives. Regardless of the *actual* result it still made people fearful. A bomb threat is illegal, but perhaps you should be able to say "BOMB" and "TERRORIST" in the airport and just claim your first amendment rights.

Of course some of those are absurd examples, but its not quite a radical departure from the same logic that brings us to prohibiting the burning of flags. If burning a flag represented clear and present danger, then it could be banned or prohibited.

Additionally, current polls show majority favor for a constitutional amendment banning flag burning. If courts were to uphold a specific instance of exercising personal rights against a democratic majority who opposed those rights and what they stood for, what kind of democracy would we be? If a single person can thwart the will of a democratic country, where does the power lie, and what other types of non-sovereign precedent would this set?

You and I would lose nothing to this amendment, when was the last time you burned a flag? Do you think it is an effective method to protest government policies? My answers are never and no, which means this law would not hurt me in the least, and if the will of the people wish to do away with burning the flag, who am I to stop a democracy?



Burning - since it is Clearly Desecrating the entire institution of the Church.
And People dont start Riots because they are Bored and have nothing to do - usually that kind of Events try to tell us that someting is terribly wrong in the Society.
But then again, there will be More and More Laws approved, and that only means one thing:
More Laws - More Corrupt Society.


Flag burning could start riots, people would see it as a slap in the face at a time of national unity. What do you think would happen to a Middle-Eastern person burning a flag in America on 9-14-2001 in the middle of New Jersey? I can say almost without a doubt that violence would be involved. Now, replace the 1 Middle-Eastern man with 100 of them protesting the US, same situation, group think plays a larger role now and violence breaks out. Weapons could be involved, it is on TV, sparks outrage among the Muslim community, starts more protests nationwide, flag burning, group brawl, on TV, more protests....ad infinitum.

All it takes is once, and even without a riot, even if it only caused 1 person to be killed, would it be worth it to you? That person would certainly not burn the flag if they knew it would cost them their life, so perhaps this law is also a sort of protection from pro-American backlash.



posted on Jun, 25 2005 @ 09:51 AM
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Originally posted by BadMojo
The title of this thread needs to be changed...or was it just a ploy to get more attention?

The Title of this Thread is taken from the Orignal Article, which is the Source of this Post.

Maybe it was a title that will get more Attention.

Flag Burning and Holy Qu'ran Desecrations can go togather in the same thread - but Jesus, No!



posted on Jun, 25 2005 @ 10:01 AM
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how far can freedom of speech go though? if i use the excuse 'i was expressing myself freely', when i killed someone who was a different religion than me...where does the free speech end and the actual law come in to play?

showing you anger by burning a countries flag is wrong in my opinion, im not sure if it counts as freedom of speech, but yeah its wrong. this is because i could say 'we kidnapped four americans and are going to kill them and broadcast it online'...'we're doing this because we're angry with america, and therefore expresing ourselves freely'...so again, i ask...where does freedom of speech end?



posted on Jun, 25 2005 @ 10:05 AM
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CaptainJailew

I see that you dont have a problem with this same Flag Proudly Waving infront of Corporate HQ's of War Profiteers?

In my opinion They Are the Ones that are Descerating that same Flag much more, without ever setting it on Fire.

They are the Bunch of War Criminals, that Profit from this Madness called War on Terror, and are basicly degrading just about everything that Flag stands for.

But when people Burn it, then all hell breaks loose!

And its not a Problem of Riots - its the Problem of the Patriotism and what the Flag Represents.

Belive me, if burning the Flag was already Illegal, do you think it would stop the People from doing it?

And I dont think burning down somebodys House or blowing up a Car is in the same Leage as burning a piece of cloth with paint on it, which you buy in a store for few bucks. Now, how does that Compare?

Its a Piece of Cloth!

Whats next?

Will they pass a constitutional ban on pie throwing? Make it illegal to parody the president?

Welcome to the Police State.



posted on Jun, 25 2005 @ 10:15 AM
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Originally posted by shaunybaby
how far can freedom of speech go though? if i use the excuse 'i was expressing myself freely', when i killed someone who was a different religion than me...where does the free speech end and the actual law come in to play?

Now how can You compare a Murder to a burning of a Piece of cloth, that does not harm anyone, but somebodys Pride?

Its not freedom of Expression if you kill somebody - thats Murder.

How many people you kill by burning a Flag?



showing you anger by burning a countries flag is wrong in my opinion, im not sure if it counts as freedom of speech, but yeah its wrong. this is because i could say 'we kidnapped four americans and are going to kill them and broadcast it online'...'we're doing this because we're angry with america, and therefore expresing ourselves freely'...so again, i ask...where does freedom of speech end?

Man I can do with MY flag Whatever I want.

I bought it, I payed good money and I have the Freedom to Express myself with it.

I can wear it around my neck, I can use it as a Towel, or I can use it as a Blanket.

Some people use it to express their non-satisfaction with the current political situation, and the current US goverment.

With this Action they dont kill nobody and they dont harm any lives nor do they put them in danger.

So, tell me again, how does that Compare with Murder?

Why was the First Amendement Ever Written then?

American Goverment is doing some Far FAR WORSE things Under this Flag, and You People have Nothing to say against That, but when somebody burns it, then its the End of the World.

Or is your Patriotism so Blinding, that you cant really see the Bigger Picture?

"Every patriot believes his country better than any other country . . . In its active manifestation—it is fond of killing—patriotism would be well enough if it were simply defensive, but it is also aggressive . . . Patriotism deliberately and with folly aforethought subordinates the interests of a whole to the interests of a part . . . Patriotism is fierce as a fever, pitiless as the grave and blind as a stone."



posted on Jun, 25 2005 @ 10:15 AM
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EDIT:

Double Post.

[edit on 25/6/05 by Souljah]



posted on Jun, 25 2005 @ 10:22 AM
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And I dont think burning down somebodys House or blowing up a Car is in the same Leage as burning a piece of cloth with paint on it, which you buy in a store for few bucks. Now, how does that Compare?

Its a Piece of Cloth!

I totally agree


There is a huge difference between a house, a car and a flag/qu'ran.

A small fire in the street will not have any effect or cause any damage.

Now, also think of this. If someone is burning a flag, they are probably at a protest....which has probably been approved by the governent...on whatever level. So the protest leaders probably anticipated flag burning...so they probably got special approval to do so in the streets...and there are certain requirements, fire extenguishers, timing on how long it can burn...etc...etc....

Its a Piece of Cloth! ...that's right...just like the Qu'ran is a few pieces of paper.

Tell me this...why are people screaming bloody murder when someone flushes a Qu'ran....but they advocate buring US flags? Sounds pretty stupid to me.

Burn it, flush it, piss on it and spit on it. It only shows how stupid you really are and how childish you are. That goes for people who Burn Flags and for people who flush Qu'rans as a form of protest. I would never do it....

Hypacrates on both sides.....the musims who burn flags and the Americans who think it's cool to flush Qu'rans but not burn flags.



posted on Jun, 25 2005 @ 10:29 AM
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SportyMB

You have a Good Point!



But - the desecration of Holy Qu'ran was executed as a form of torture and abuse, not as a form of protests, like the freedom of expression.

The guys at the prison dont really have ANY rights at all - not even the Basic ones, supplied with the Geneva Conventions.

I am not saying that its not the same leage - but I am saying that it was a different intention of the two parties, who desecrated somebodys "Sacred Simbol".

When you Flush a Holy Qu'ran down the Toiled you are going to anger the Muslim Community - by Burning the Flag you are going to anger the American Community.

The Difference is that there will soon be LAWS against burning the Flag, but there wont be any LAWS against Prisoners abusement with Desecrations of Holy Books (since there are basicly no laws in Prison anyway).



posted on Jun, 25 2005 @ 10:53 AM
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the desecration of Holy Qu'ran was executed as a form of torture and abuse, not as a form of protests, like the freedom of expression.

It doesnt matter why it was done....paper is paper, cloth is cloth. Anyways, why is flushing a Qu'ran torture? To some people burning the American flag may be torture....just as mental as flushing a Qu'ran.

Then the Muslim community retaliates by burning American flags...two "wrongs" don't make a right.

Sorry to wander off topic.....yeah that will defiantely be wrong to ban burning of American flags....I don't think the law will ever get passed, IMO

If it does it will say alot about the direction this country is going in.



posted on Jun, 25 2005 @ 11:02 AM
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I think your missing something souljah, i dont think jesus would burn any flags.



posted on Jun, 25 2005 @ 11:09 AM
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Originally posted by SportyMB
It doesnt matter why it was done....paper is paper, cloth is cloth. Anyways, why is flushing a Qu'ran torture? To some people burning the American flag may be torture....just as mental as flushing a Qu'ran.

Maybe because most of Muslims are Very Religous and carry their own Copy of Qu'ran with them most of the times.

How many Americans carry the America Flag with them all the time?



Then the Muslim community retaliates by burning American flags...two "wrongs" don't make a right.

Agreed.

Vengence just brings more Hatred.



Sorry to wander off topic.....yeah that will defiantely be wrong to ban burning of American flags....I don't think the law will ever get passed, IMO

If it does it will say alot about the direction this country is going in.

I think tha current Goverment is capable of much worse things and laws as this one, regarding the Flag burning.

This is just the Beginning...




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