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Bad news for Boeing

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posted on Jun, 25 2005 @ 06:36 AM
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As the Paris show clsed on 19th June Boeing recieved a blow when Air Canada announced that it has cancelled its order for up to 96 Aircraft, which included orders for 14 Boeing 787's and options for 46 more.

The value of the firm orders (for 777 and 787 types) was over $6billion with a further $10billion worth of options held.

The reason for the cancellation is given as Air Canada's failure to agree a new cost cutting labour agreement with its pilots.

Unfortunately for Boeing the cancellation is reported to be of more or less equal value to all the orders it had unveiled at the show.

a couple of links, many more out there if you want them;

news.airwise.com...
news.ft.com...


[edit on 25-6-2005 by waynos]




posted on Jun, 25 2005 @ 06:50 AM
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Bummer, but that is the nature of the business. Untill the contracts are inked orders are just that. May not be the last for either maker.



posted on Jun, 25 2005 @ 06:55 AM
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Well Boeing says (as you would expect I suppose) that there is enough interest from other customers to fill in the gaps left by Air Canada in the delivery schedules of both types, however the fact that it was Air Canada's first Boeing order since 1989 will make the loss a little harder to swallow for them I would think.



posted on Jun, 25 2005 @ 07:00 AM
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Cancelling the purchase because of labor issues is not as bad for Boeing as Canada cancelling to buy Airbus planes instead.
Boeing may still get the orders eventually, once the labor dispute is settled.

They'll have to hope it happens this year just for Boeings orders on paper to look good at the end of the year.


[edit on 25-6-2005 by AceOfBase]



posted on Jun, 25 2005 @ 07:05 AM
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Originally posted by waynos
Well Boeing says (as you would expect I suppose) that there is enough interest from other customers to fill in the gaps left by Air Canada in the delivery schedules of both types,


The production slots that Air Canada was to have would be the key. With the 787 reaching market before the A350, you may have interest if you want that type of plane sooner than later. Once both are in full production then there is more competition.

However, a recent AWST article indicated that Airbus was making the A350 20% bigger in terms of capacity and was going to go after the 777 as it seems the A330 is not. It sets up an interesting scenario. Could this force Boeing to make changes to the 777 such as the more efficient engines etc? I doubt you could make many changes to the 777 to make it more 787 like (much like Airbus found when it tryed to warm over the A330 into the 350)



posted on Jun, 25 2005 @ 07:17 AM
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I cant see how Airbus can resize the A350 and shift its place in the market considering it has already sold 125 aircraft. These customers have clearly bought the plane to the '787-lite' spec that Airbus was promoting it to, they cannot now turn to those customers and say "actually what you'll be getting is more like a 777 but I'm sure you'll cope".

Maybe they will be launching it in two sizes and the 777 rival will be a stretched version of the original?

Speaking of the 777, I agree that I can't see how Boeing can make it that much more efficient, especially considering that its the equivalent of a twin jet 747-200, how much more economising can you do?



posted on Jun, 25 2005 @ 07:22 AM
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Originally posted by AceOfBase
Cancelling the purchase because of labor issues is not as bad for Boeing as Canada cancelling to buy Airbus planes instead.
Boeing may still get the orders eventually, once the labor dispute is settled.

They'll have to hope it happens this year just for Boeings orders on paper to look good at the end of the year.


[edit on 25-6-2005 by AceOfBase]


Air Canada has said that it will replace the planned 777's for 2006 delivery with aircraft from the used market so that part of the order appears to be lost for good. However the 787 order was for a replacement for their current 767's and that 'will be looked at again' when the current dispute is finally over. It could go either way on that one but Boeing might do themselves a favour if they can hold Air Canada's production slots on the 787 to make coming back easier, if Air Canad have to wait until 2011 or later it might make the A350 more attractive.



posted on Jun, 25 2005 @ 07:27 AM
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In regards to the A350 versus 777 saga from AWST:



Last month in Toulouse, Airbus said it would meet that competition with a 20% solution: each of its A350 models will offer 20% more seating than corresponding 787s. The goal is to push seating beyond the 300-seat demarcation between Boeing's 787 and 777 families with the aim of turning the larger A350 into a "777-200ER killer," a reference to the model that accounts for more than half of all 777 sales (see p. 70).
Airbus



posted on Jun, 25 2005 @ 07:36 AM
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I see, I thought you were saying they were going to make it as big as the 777.



posted on Jun, 25 2005 @ 01:21 PM
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Air India just sealed an 8 billion $ deal with Boeing a month back prefering the dreamliner over the A 350.



posted on Jun, 25 2005 @ 03:15 PM
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My uncle was one of the people who were chosen initially to design the dreamliner, now designated the 787 I think. Unfortunately his design didn't make it. After the designs were approved from another bidder, he took a look at the 'prints and said "this thing's a POS". He said that the efficiency was offset by the cost and the size. He said that it needed more capacity... or something like that. He just doesn't think its efficient as they say it is. I dunno.... I personally think Boeing's got the market for now. Remember how they had to widen runways for the 747? I am thinking that the A380's gonna be the same deal. But then again... You never know. I guess I'm just a Boeing guy, there's something about Airbus I find fishy.



posted on Jun, 25 2005 @ 05:26 PM
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If anything looks 'fishy' its the fin of the 787


If Airports can't handle the A380 they ought to get their act together, Robin Hood Airport near me has just opened, being converted from an old RAF base and it can handle the A380 already, without any major alterations to the runway the RAF used to use and with pretty much standard terminals, sounds like excuses to me.



posted on Jun, 25 2005 @ 11:19 PM
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If Airports can't handle the A380 they ought to get their act together,


And who would pay for that? And the maintenance and new systems what would be put in place to handle those changes? Is airbus going to pay for it?



posted on Jun, 26 2005 @ 09:05 PM
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Originally posted by waynos
If anything looks 'fishy' its the fin of the 787


If Airports can't handle the A380 they ought to get their act together, Robin Hood Airport near me has just opened, being converted from an old RAF base and it can handle the A380 already, without any major alterations to the runway the RAF used to use and with pretty much standard terminals, sounds like excuses to me.



The US just doesn't want to widen runways and stuff because more airlines will buy the A380. If more airlines buy the A380, there is not going to be business for Boeing resulting in job cuts.

[edit on 26-6-2005 by Qwazzy]



posted on Jun, 26 2005 @ 09:07 PM
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Originally posted by WestPoint23

If Airports can't handle the A380 they ought to get their act together,


And who would pay for that? And the maintenance and new systems what would be put in place to handle those changes? Is airbus going to pay for it?



Hey your Americans! The smartest, most intelligent people! You can do it!!!



posted on Jun, 27 2005 @ 03:58 AM
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The thing is though it really is just American excuses. You don't hear other countries whining about it and over 150 A380's have already been sold all over the world. Whatsmore it is just a myth as the A380 has been specifically designed to put LESS strain on a runway than a 747 does by more even weight distribution though its undercarriage arrangement. Likewise the argument about widening runways, a complete fallacy as all runways where the 747 can land are already perfectly capable of taking the A380, but protectionist America doesn't want to hear that. The modifications that would be required are simply those that will allow top deck passengers to disembark directly without first 'going downstairs' and they are not nearly as expensive or demanding as they make out.

for instance;


Early on, Airbus made a decision to strive for "airport compatibility," which made the job somewhat easier, says Dan Cohen-nir, program manager for Airbus North America. "Before the 2000 launch of the A380 program, we had worked with the airports to better define the aircraft and to minimize the impact on existing airports," he tells AE&T. The goal was to integrate the design to "fit in a box"-to have a footprint that was not significantly larger than that of the 747.

Like I said before, if the A380 was a Boeing the work that is required would be done like a shot and without a murmer and anyone who thinks otherwise is kidding themselves.

The benefit for the Airport is that say 600 passengers can be disembarked from a single plane parked in a single slot instead of the three 787's that it would require to bring in the same number.



posted on Oct, 22 2005 @ 06:04 AM
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Here is the latest artwork for the 787, showing it looking very smart in the colours of LOT, the national airline of Poland;



A few changes have happened to the 787 recently, as the artwork shows, they are both aerodynamic and structural as the 'shark' like tailfin has now gone, to be replaced by a more comnventional one which resembles that of the 757.

Also the unusual cockpit archtecture has been replaced by a more normal screen arrangement which is (my guess) possibly easier to manufacture and stress correctly?



posted on Oct, 22 2005 @ 11:48 AM
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Its a good looking plane...but I still miss the shark tail.


United Arab Emirates is pushing Boeing to maker a bigger 787, they want the plane to hold around 300.

Emirates want 787-10X




posted on Oct, 22 2005 @ 11:51 AM
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Makes sense for Boeing to build the plane that Emirates is asking for. Also the 787-10X would meet Airbus' bigger 300 passenger A350-900 head on.



posted on Oct, 22 2005 @ 12:53 PM
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Originally posted by Qwazzy
Hey your Americans! The smartest, most intelligent people! You can do it!!!


Yup!

I guess Airbus will foot the bill, or not have their aircraft purchased by our companies!




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