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Interesting information on the "Christianity is a copy of Pagan Myths" Theory

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posted on Jul, 12 2005 @ 05:55 PM
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After long searching, reading, discussing I've finally found what it is everyone is looking for. Prepare to be shocked and amazed as the following information demonstrates why in fact Christianity cannot be a copy. We can all agree that the Bible was written well before the 20th Century right? Well, behold...



Rochester, N.Y., as The Haloid Company Founded in 1906; named Xerox Corporation in 1961.

www.xerox.com...


Now if there were no copy machines when the Bible was written, then how did Christianity copy anything hm? Tell me that!




posted on Jul, 13 2005 @ 10:25 AM
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Now if there were no copy machines when the Bible was written, then how did Christianity copy anything hm? Tell me that!




Sadly I have actually seen people argue that the bible cannot be the word of God because modern copies are not photocopies of the original handwritten copies. Curiously few people argue that we don't have copies of Pride and Prejudice, based on the same argument.

All the best,

Roger Pearse



posted on Jul, 13 2005 @ 02:53 PM
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Originally posted by roger_pearse
Sadly I have actually seen people argue that the bible cannot be the word of God because modern copies are not photocopies of the original handwritten copies. Curiously few people argue that we don't have copies of Pride and Prejudice, based on the same argument.


Oh my
. And here I thought my attempt at humour was original.


Originally posted by roger_pearse
All the best,

Roger Pearse


And to you too. Glad to see you back!



posted on Jul, 13 2005 @ 06:05 PM
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Originally posted by roger_pearse

Now if there were no copy machines when the Bible was written, then how did Christianity copy anything hm? Tell me that!




Sadly I have actually seen people argue that the bible cannot be the word of God because modern copies are not photocopies of the original handwritten copies. Curiously few people argue that we don't have copies of Pride and Prejudice, based on the same argument.

All the best,

Roger Pearse


Umm, just a few observations:

1. The Bible (capitalized out of respect for God, and noone else) is not a comprehensive, cohesive single work by one author.
2. Originals exist for all canonized content, in addition to alot more. A good close interpretation is the YLT, or Young's Literal Translation, and yes, it reads markedly different in many areas than the KJV.
3. Men (hundreds of them actually) determined the translations, composition, and content inclusion of the material with which the current KJV (and all others) is compiled. Men are fallible (extremely); men have agendas (almost always); the men in question had one primary charter (to craft a tool designed to control the masses).
4. As far as I know, noone has based a religion on Pride and Prejudice.




posted on Jul, 13 2005 @ 06:32 PM
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Originally posted by flyingbuttflygrl
This is to whoever was stating that Sunday is not the seventh day it is the first day so Christians changed it to relate more to pagans. Christians use to observe the sabith(sp) on Saturday much like the Jews until Jesus came along and was raised on the seventh day. Therefore from what i have learned that is why it is observed on Sunday now and not Saturday, not because they were trying to get pagans to take notice.



Thank you for this answer FBG.......I wondered if ANYBODY was going to get around to noticing my question.......
My very Mormon uncle gave this same answer ty my query.........

The fact remains that keeping the sabbath day HOLY is a comandment.

I have not seen ANY amendment to this comandment in the bible though....so exactly HOW did people decide this was what the God of the bible wanted them to do? Did Jesus tell them to change tha sabbath? Where is this written?
I believe the comandments were given LONG before Jesus made and appearance. Were other comandments amended because Jesus said to, and wich ones? Or do people just ASUME this?

[edit on 13-7-2005 by theRiverGoddess]



posted on Jul, 13 2005 @ 06:48 PM
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Originally posted by theRiverGoddess
The fact remains that keeping the sabbath day HOLY is a comandment.

[edit on 13-7-2005 by theRiverGoddess]


Here's some food for thought. If you a christian and you take your relationship with God serious, then God is literally dwelling within us 24/7. Everything and I mean all decisions should be based on what God would have us do. There are no decisions to be made lightly, for every moment we are before a Holy God, and as such every moment of everyday should be lived as such.


A relationship with Christ goes way beyond keeping one day a week holy. It encompasses all 7 days.

[edit on 13-7-2005 by dbrandt]



posted on Jul, 13 2005 @ 07:14 PM
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Originally posted by theRiverGoddess

Originally posted by flyingbuttflygrl
This is to whoever was stating that Sunday is not the seventh day it is the first day so Christians changed it to relate more to pagans. Christians use to observe the sabith(sp) on Saturday much like the Jews until Jesus came along and was raised on the seventh day. Therefore from what i have learned that is why it is observed on Sunday now and not Saturday, not because they were trying to get pagans to take notice.



Thank you for this answer FBG.......I wondered if ANYBODY was going to get around to noticing my question.......
My very Mormon uncle gave this same answer ty my query.........

The fact remains that keeping the sabbath day HOLY is a comandment.

I have not seen ANY amendment to this comandment in the bible though....so exactly HOW did people decide this was what the God of the bible wanted them to do? Did Jesus tell them to change tha sabbath? Where is this written?
I believe the comandments were given LONG before Jesus made and appearance. Were other comandments amended because Jesus said to, and wich ones? Or do people just ASUME this?

[edit on 13-7-2005 by theRiverGoddess]


In 321AD, the Emperor Constantine decreed that Sunday be a day of rest throughout the Roman Empire, as he was a follower of Mithraism (Sun worship). In 364AD at the Council of Laodicea, "Sunday" was formally canonized as the official "day of rest" for the fledgling Romanized Christian religion. This was done primarily to drive a wedge of distinction between Judaism & Christianity. In conclusion, Shabbat (Saturday) has never changed, as it is an observance of the true Judaic faith. The Sabbath (Sunday) is a creation of the Roman Empire.



posted on Jul, 14 2005 @ 04:41 AM
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The change to sunday as an 'official' day of rest is as lordling says. The RE and RCC made it 'official.

As for an amendment. . .

Rom 14:4 Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.
Rom 14:5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.
Rom 14:6 He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.

That should clear it up.



posted on Jul, 14 2005 @ 08:16 AM
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Originally posted by marg6043
Anyway go back to creation myth and read the part of god making women and men in his own image.
Then go back to New Testament and see how conveniently "God" became a male with a male human son.

Yes the female has roles in the bible, occurs only when they were consistently chosen for the particular roles.We all know how pagan beliefs gave women a much marked role than the bible itself.
Yes women were the Goddesses of the earth . . . until Christianity gave to the male species with the birth of the divine Jesus all male from a male God.
Josephat I wonder who is really the undeducated here.

Thanks theRiverGoddess, we women in other civilizations around the world and away from chrisitanity had bigger and better roles, we were the godesses of earth.

[edit on 26-6-2005 by marg6043]


Well, nowhere in the NT does it show conclusively that Yeshua was G-D. So, your argument about god becoming a man is kinda mute. I do admit though It is kinda "convenient" how the "messengers" of god in religions have all been men.

If you would read the Tanakh in the Hebrew you would see that the feminine aspects of "G-D" are there; they have just be drowned out by the scribes.

You are correct in asserting that our patriarchal society did down play this. However, they did forget to blot out such instances as the whole thing about Miriam, the prophetess being allowed into the Tabernacle of G-D.

I urge you to read some of the "other" gospels besides the ones you find in the modern day bible...You will see that the mother or "goddess" as you call her; never left.



posted on Jul, 14 2005 @ 08:18 AM
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Originally posted by marg6043
One of the thinks about the books of Genesis or the Torah is that even when they are credited to Moses he didn't wrote them, and if the books was the narratives of the Moses, we must take in consideration that moses was raised an educated Egyptian and that included the Egyptian stories of creation.


There is even some talk that moses might have actually been a pharaoh....
When one sees that you have two factions competing in what is called the Tanakh-Old Testament...the Yahwehists vs. The Elohimist, the bible begins to make a whole lot more sense...

[edit on 14-7-2005 by KSoze]



posted on Jul, 14 2005 @ 09:30 AM
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As for polytheism in the Bible, in the KJV, Genesis is written as:

Gen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

Literal translation of Gen 1:27:
And God prepareth the man in His image; in the image of God He prepared him, a male and a female He prepared them.

This would have us believe that God has both male and female qualities, but more importantly, comprises two entities.

Since literal translations often aren't taken kindly to by Christians, the rest of these quotes will be taken directly from KJV. Here are some Bible quotes referring to Gods:

Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

Gen 11:7 Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech.

Exd 12:12 For I will pass through the land of Egypt this night, and will smite all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, both man and beast; and against all the gods of Egypt I will execute judgment: I [am] the LORD.

(Why call them Gods if they are not real?)

Exd 15:11 Who [is] like unto thee, O LORD, among the gods? who [is] like thee, glorious in holiness, fearful [in] praises, doing wonders?

Exd 22:28 Thou shalt not revile the gods, nor curse the ruler of thy people.

Jdg 11:24 Wilt not thou possess that which Chemosh thy god giveth thee to possess?

1 Sam.6:5 "Ye shall give glory unto the God of Israel: peradventure he will lighten his hand from off you, and from off your gods."

1 Sam.28:13 "And the king said unto her, Be not afraid: for what sawest thou? And the woman said unto Saul, I saw gods ascending out of the earth.

Psa 82:1 [[A Psalm of Asaph.]] God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods.

Psa 82:6 I have said, Ye [are] gods; and all of you [are] children of the most High.

Psa 86:8 Among the gods [there is] none like unto thee, O Lord; neither [are there any works] like unto thy works.

Psa 97:7 Confounded be all they that serve graven images, that boast themselves of idols: worship him, all [ye] gods.

Psa 136:2 O give thanks unto the God of gods: for his mercy [endureth] for ever.

Jhn 10:33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

Jhn 10:34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?

Arguably, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost trinity is polytheistic as well, but I won't argue that point. I think it argues itself.

From [url]


The first Name used for God in scripture is Elohim. In form, the word is a masculine plural of a word that looks feminine in the singular (Eloha).


This makes sense in light of Genesis 1:26:

Gen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

What is in a name?

Jewish names for God aren't just syllables slapped together to form a unique word of representation for God, the names convey meaning with regards to the background and history of the God and the extent of the God's power.

Other scriptural Hebrew words for God include:

El Shaddai
YHVH Tzva'ot
Adonai
Ehyeh-Asher-Ehyeh
El
`Elyon
Hashem/Hadavar
Shalom
Shekhinah
Yah

Remember that the names characterize the Gods. Why would God be referred to by any other name other than the highest, the tetragrammaton (YHWH)? There is no purpose in my mind to call God anything other than what is thought to be the highest name for him.

Why all the other names? Because the Bible was written by so many people with so many conflicting accounts? Because Judeo-Christians are polytheistic? Because the Gods came from older cultures and their stories were rolled up into one when the Bible was written?

I've gotta get going, but I'll talk more about this later.

Zip



posted on Jul, 14 2005 @ 09:35 AM
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Originally posted by dbrandt
Here's some food for thought. If you a christian and you take your relationship with God serious, then God is literally dwelling within us 24/7. Everything and I mean all decisions should be based on what God would have us do. There are no decisions to be made lightly, for every moment we are before a Holy God, and as such every moment of everyday should be lived as such.

A relationship with Christ goes way beyond keeping one day a week holy. It encompasses all 7 days.


No offense, but that sounds like extreme paranoia to me. I wouldn't want to live like that. It's true, though, if a Judeo-Christian believer is to follow the Bible exactly at every moment, which is so rare that no one on Earth is able to do it. You call it original sin, I call it being conscious and having a brain.

Zip



posted on Jul, 14 2005 @ 09:40 AM
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Hehe, interesting how on one thread someone says there's not God in the Bible, now there's someone saying there's too many. Even more ironic is the fact that my response to the other applies great here too! So, second verse, same as the first:


Originally posted by darkelf
Deuteronomy 32:39 - and there is no god


Moses is reciting a song...there's more there about God. There is one God.


Originally posted by darkelf
1 Kings 8:23 - there is no God


"and said: 'Oh Lord, God of Israel, there is no God like you in heaven above or on earth below..." or did you just read four words of this sentence?


Originally posted by darkelf
2 Kings 1:16 - there is no God


"He told the king, 'This is what the Lord says: Is it because there is no God in Israel for you to consult that you have sent messengers to consult Baal-Zebub, the god of Ekron?" Confused? You shouldn't be, read the whole chapter.


Originally posted by darkelf
2 Kings 5:15 - there is no God


"Then Naaman and all his attendants went back to the man of God. He stood before him and said, 'Now I know there is no God in all the world except in Israel." Is the phrase "except in Israel" missing in your Bible? Then I would go get your money back because it's in everyone else's.


Originally posted by darkelf
2 Chronicles 6:14 - there is no God


"He said: 'O Lord, God of Israel, there is no God like you in heaven or on earth..." Okay, making this point is getting tiring....


Originally posted by darkelf
Psalms 14:1 - There is no God.


"The fool says in his heart, 'There is no God.'" Are you calling yourself a fool?


Originally posted by darkelf
Psalms 53:1 - There is no God.


"The fool says in his heart, 'There is no God.'" - Ouch, and twice too!


Originally posted by darkelf
Isaiah 44:6 - there is no God.


"...apart from me there is no God."


Originally posted by darkelf
Isaiah 44:8 - there is no God


"Is there any God besides me?"


Originally posted by darkelf
Isaiah 45:5 - there is no God


"I am the Lord and there is no other; apart from me there is no God."


Originally posted by darkelf


Maranatha


Wow, you've successfully proven that not only is there a God in the Bible, but He is the only one. Thank you.


In regards to "we" and "us" in the Bible, nowhere does it say "we gods" or "us Gods" and clarifies that with these very verses. You didn't think heaven was empty, did you?

Pray, train, study,
God bless.

[edit on 14-7-2005 by saint4God]



posted on Jul, 14 2005 @ 11:11 AM
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I fail to see how your response has anything to do with the verses I quoted, besides the fact that those verses about one god contradict the verses that speak of multiple gods.

By the way, even a verse such as

Zeph.2:11 "The Lord will be terrible to them: for he will famish all the gods of the earth."

or

Ps.82:1 "God standeth in the congregation of the mighty, he judgeth among the gods."

or

Ex.18:11 "Now I know that the LORD is greater than all gods."

or

Ex.20:3 "Thou shalt have no other gods before me."

...Clearly state that multiple gods exist. Therefore, if you believe in the Bible, you must believe in multiple gods.

You believe in the Bible, right? Splendid.

Glad that's settled.

Zip



posted on Jul, 14 2005 @ 11:19 AM
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KSoze
Thanks for Acknowledging my post, actually god became a man incarnated with the birth of Jesus as per christian believes.

Thanks for the information also, I will be looking into that.

I will have to point out now that Zipdot make a nice comparison of the used of “God’s” in the ancient bible.

Because the Old Testament was indeed the accounts of the blood line of the Jewish people from creation to the messiah. We most understand that since the times of Abraham, the worship of lesser Gods beside the main ones was observed by this people.

Both monotheistic and polytheistic believes were part of the ancient Israeli traditions. Evidence of this is not limited only to the bible accounts in the Old Testament but also in artifacts and other sources.

Their polytheistic views persisted longer than the bible itself accounts for it.



"The existence of high places and other forms of ancestral and household god worship was not -- as the book of Kings imply -- apostasy from an earlier, purer faith. It was part of the timeless tradition of the hill country settlers of Judah, who worshiped YHWH along with a variety of gods and goddesses known or adapted from the cults of neighboring peoples. YHWH, in short, was worshiped in a wide variety of ways -- and sometimes pictured as having a heavenly entourage. From the indirect (and pointedly negative) evidence of the books of Kings, we learn that priests in the countryside also regularly burned incense on the high places to the sun, the moon, and the stars" I. Finkelstein and N.A. Silberman, The Bible Unearthed. Archeology's New Vision of Ancient Israel and the Origin of Its Sacred Texts (New York, Toronto: Free Press, 2001), pp. 241-42.


www.ucalgary.ca...

That with the birth of Christianity the entire worship of one God and his “son” became the norm came much later, but before, the new Testament it was still polytheistic influences in the middle east and in the Jewish people.

It’s not fair to depend on bible accounts and forget the entire bigger picture of how history and cultural traditions of the people of the Middle East after all the west worship with Christianity the ancient believes of this people.

Jesus was a Jewish after all and not body can take away that fact and with his roots comes all the history of these people of ancient times, no matter how much the modern bible has been written, redefined and modify, is still and will always be of Jewish roots and the blood line of the Israeli people that culminated with Jesus and the birth of Christianity.



posted on Jul, 14 2005 @ 01:34 PM
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Originally posted by Zipdot
By the way, even a verse such as

Zeph.2:11 "The Lord will be terrible to them: for he will famish all the gods of the earth."


gods of the earth...hm, so then, they don't live outside earth? What kind of "gods" are they then?
Oh! The answer is right here -

Deuteronomy 29:16-21
"You yourselves know how we lived in Egypt and how we passed through the countries on the way here. You saw among them their detestable images and idols of wood and stone, of silver and gold. Make sure there is no man or woman, clan or tribe among you today whose heart turns away from the LORD our God to go and worship the gods of those nations; make sure there is no root among you that produces such bitter poison."

Also there's that golden calf incident...


Originally posted by Zipdot
or

Ps.82:1 "God standeth in the congregation of the mighty, he judgeth among the gods."


You know you're quoting a song, right? Anyway, already addressed. They should make a tv show "People Worship the Darnedest Things!" and show stuff like money, drugs, pride, alcohol, sex, selfishness, their job, etc. What do they all have in common? They're all dead gods.


Originally posted by Zipdot
or

Ex.18:11 "Now I know that the LORD is greater than all gods."


Why do you think God is so opposed to idols and graven images? Well, because that's all there is to those other gods. When those disappear, so do the "gods".


Originally posted by Zipdot
or

Ex.20:3 "Thou shalt have no other gods before me."

...Clearly state that multiple gods exist.


made of wood, stone, gold, yadda yadda.


Originally posted by Zipdot
Therefore, if you believe in the Bible, you must believe in multiple gods.

You believe in the Bible, right? Splendid.

Glad that's settled.

Zip


Me too.



posted on Jul, 14 2005 @ 02:59 PM
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I took this quote from your post above

"If you would read the Tanakh in the Hebrew you would see that the feminine aspects of "G-D" are there; they have just be drowned out by the scribes.

You are correct in asserting that our patriarchal society did down play this. However, they did forget to blot out such instances as the whole thing about Miriam, the prophetess being allowed into the Tabernacle of G-D.

I urge you to read some of the "other" gospels besides the ones you find in the modern day bible...You will see that the mother or "goddess" as you call her; never left."


You are seriously joking about this right???

Orangetom



posted on Jul, 14 2005 @ 03:38 PM
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Originally posted by Zipdot

Originally posted by dbrandt
Here's some food for thought. If you a christian and you take your relationship with God serious, then God is literally dwelling within us 24/7. Everything and I mean all decisions should be based on what God would have us do.



No offense, but that sounds like extreme paranoia to me. I wouldn't want to live like that.

It's true, though, if a Judeo-Christian believer is to follow the Bible exactly at every moment, which is so rare that no one on Earth is able to do it.

You call it original sin, I call it being conscious and having a brain.

Zip



You wouldn't want to live like that because..............?

You are right that no one can live like that 24/7 but that is the aim a christian should strive for. We will not be perfected this side of heaven, but that is certainly not an excuse to not focus on this goal. God wants a person to be all he or she can be and by applying God's principles to everyday life we are being prepared for eternity.

I don't call anything original sin, so I'm not sure what you are talking about. Please explain.

this is the edit. As I was looking over my response it occurred to me that if someone calls themself a christian, but doesn't live like it, they are called a hypocrit and they discredit the Bible and Christ.

But I explained that a christian is to filter everything we do, say, think etc. through God. So I am belittled for that also. So, not just you, but people who doubt God and the Bible can't have it both ways. If someone is a hypocrit they are a hypocrit, period. But there are people who are christians who sincerely desire to know God and grow in their relationship with Him, and are doing that. We are not perfect and still stumble every once in a while, but we are growing.

[edit on 14-7-2005 by dbrandt]



posted on Jul, 14 2005 @ 05:06 PM
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As for polytheism in the Bible, in the KJV, Genesis is written as:


You have just proven the Trinity.
God the Father
Jesus the Son
and the Holy Spirit.

Thank you

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Joh 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.



posted on Jul, 14 2005 @ 05:13 PM
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I don't mean to make you feel as though I am belittling you at all. I think you're a fine individual, dbrandt... My comment about paranoia was geniuinely how I feel about it - that wasn't meant to be a cut down or anything.

Anyways, I think it's a good thing that people don't take the Bible into account in every decision in life. If this were the case, slavery would be more prominent, we'd have more stonings, and all kinds of things. So I won't sit here and accuse any Christians of being hypocrites, but I will say that there are few, if any, Christians that truly (1) believe every word in the Bible and (2) follow even a majority of the Bible's advice. You may say you believe every word of the Bible, but if you believe in womens' rights, abolitionism, and whatnot, then you don't.



The Old Testament law commanded the death penalty for various acts: murder (Exodus 21:12), kidnapping (Exodus 21:16), bestiality (Exodus 22:19); adultery (Leviticus 20:10); homosexuality (Leviticus 20:13), a false prophet (Deuteronomy 13:5), prostitution and rape (Deuteronomy 22:4), and several other crimes.


Prostitution, the oldest business in the world, requires a death sentence. Yikes! I could say something about the modern system of dating here, but I won't.



After striking the Philistines with hemorrhoids "in their secret parts," he demands that they send him five golden hemorrhoids as a "trespass offering." 6:4-5, 11, 17


Lesser Known Bible Stories - the Golden Hemorrhoid Transfer.

Do you believe that the Lord is an evil spirit? The Bible does!



1 Samuel 16:14 But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD troubled him.

16:15 And Saul's servants said unto him, Behold now, an evil spirit from God troubleth thee.

16:23 And it came to pass, when the evil spirit from God was upon Saul, that David took an harp, and played with his hand: so Saul was refreshed, and was well, and the evil spirit departed from him.

1 Samuel 19:9 And the evil spirit from the LORD was upon Saul, as he sat in his house with his javelin in his hand: and David played with his hand.


Have you ever been drunk?



God kills everyone "that pisseth against the wall." 1 Kings 14:10, 16:11, 21:21


Well, I guess in time we're all going to die, so technically this isn't actually untrue...



God sends two bears to rip up 42 little children for making fun of Elisha's bald head. 2:23-24


Do you think that all atheists are bad people that have never done a single good thing in their lives?



Psalm 14:1 The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.


Do you believe that snails melt? Come on, do ya?



Psalm 58:8 As a snail which melteth, let every one of them pass away: like the untimely birth of a woman, that they may not see the sun.


Who's the greatest man to walk the planet, John the Baptist or Jesus?



Matthew 11:11 Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.


If you believe every word in the Bible, then you've got to believe BOTH that Jesus is the best dude to ever live (born of a woman), AND that John the Baptist is. Believing both things is obviously a contradiction and while most people would say that Jesus is the greatest man ever, the Bible says otherwise.

I just picked some random things here. I'll pick more random stuff later if you want.

Zip

[edit on 7/14/2005 by Zipdot]




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