Interesting information on the "Christianity is a copy of Pagan Myths" Theory

Originally posted by saint4God

Originally posted by nathraq
Then how would you explain Hinduism, Shamanism and animism, which, having no contact whatsoever with Judaism, being thousands of years older?

It was more of a silly-slap than an attempt to prove any specific point

but I'm game. The bottom line is, when you believe that Judaism began when "God created heaven and earth" then nothing could possibly come before it. Post-era Tower of Babel, there were many tribes and languages that went about their way in the world.

Hindus have their own creation stories. Just because you have a creation story that says "In the beginning," and you believe it, that does not actually mean that it predates everything in the world. You will have to do much better than providing a Bible quote to back up your Tower of Babel and Creation stories in the face of real historical evidence that shows Hinduism to predate Judaism.

Vedic culture predates all modern religions. The Vedas were written before the Bible. If all you can say about this is "Nuh uhhh! Not according to the Bible," then that's less than I expected.

Originally posted by saint4God
Just my perspective from this point forward. What's interesting is the further away you move from Israel in ancient times, the less similarities you have with God as viewed by a lot of Hebrew and Christian people. Hinduism has more in common with Judaism/Christianity than Buddhism, Buddhism more in common than Taoism and same going in the other direction. This is from my observation and study so it's arguable.

Extremely arguable. Please see my posts earlier in this thread regarding the similarities between Buddhism and Christianity. Taoism originated as a philosophy, not a religion. It wasn't considered to be its own religion until nearly 100 years after its inception (so that kind of resembles Christianity, eh?). I don't think it's comparable in most ways to classical theistic religions.

I would add here that, while we don't have photographic evidence of people sitting around, reading older religious texts, such as the Vedas, and copying their stories into Bible stories, the overwhelming amount of similarities between Christianity/Judaism and other religions begs investigation by inquiring minds. Christianity doesn't lack inquiring minds, except, it seems to me, when it comes to questioning Christianity.

Zip

[edit on 7/7/2005 by Zipdot]

Originally posted by Zipdot
Hindus have their own creation stories. Just because you have a creation story that says "In the beginning," and you believe it, that does not actually mean that it predates everything in the world.

That's why I said: "...when you believe that Judaism began when 'God created heaven and earth' then nothing could possibly come before it."

What was first? It's debatable looking at text...which is why we're here debating it. You don't have proof based just on books, I don't have proof based just on books. We need to seek our proof beyond books. Who breaks the tie? Talk to God.

Originally posted by Zipdot
Vedic culture predates all modern religions. The Vedas were written before the Bible. If all you can say about this is "Nuh uhhh! Not according to the Bible," then that's less than I expected.

With all due respect, if you're going to have my side of the conversation as well, then there's really nothing for me to say either in opposition or agreement.

Originally posted by Zipdot
Extremely arguable. Please see my posts earlier in this thread regarding the similarities between Buddhism and Christianity. Taoism originated as a philosophy, not a religion. It wasn't considered to be its own religion until nearly 100 years after its inception (so that kind of resembles Christianity, eh?). I don't think it's comparable in most ways to classical theistic religions.

*shrug* I'd encourage everyone to make their own conclusions of this based on study.

Originally posted by Zipdot
I would add here that, while we don't have photographic evidence of people sitting around, reading older religious texts, such as the Vedas, and copying their stories into Bible stories, the overwhelming amount of similarities between Christianity/Judaism and other religions begs investigation by inquiring minds. Christianity doesn't lack inquiring minds, except, it seems to me, when it comes to questioning Christianity.

Zip

I question things in Christianity all time. I am Christian. I can share with you my questions for Christianity if you like...though many of those questions so far have lead to an answer.

Pray, train, study,
God bless.

[edit on 7-7-2005 by saint4God]

Originally posted by saint4God
That's why I said: "...when you believe that Judaism began when 'God created heaven and earth' then nothing could possibly come before it."

Yes, I was reiterating that.

Originally posted by saint4God
What was first? It's debatable looking at text...which is why we're here debating it. You don't have proof based just on books, I don't have proof based just on books. We need to seek our proof beyond books. Who breaks the tie? Talk to God.

I would gladly talk to God if he existed. As it is, I do not talk to what I deem to be imaginary entities.

There is no debate as to what was conceived first (Vedas) and what was practiced first (Hinduism). Hinduism is predated by primitive fertility and sun worshippers. The Old Testament was written as a going concern between the 12th century B.C.E. and a little while before the time of Christ, though I understand most of the canon was assembled between 650 B.C.E. and 300 B.C.E. Though it portends to describe the beginning of the Earth and mankind, I really must ask, who are the witnesses to Genesis I? I don't believe there are any witnesses to Genesis I, and therefore, it is a second hand account. Even if it was written by someone who was told the details by God, it is still hearsay.

Check out this well-written inquisition entitled, What is the old testament?

Having said all of that, there is no doubt that the Vedas were written down entirely in 300 B.C.E. Previously, they were thought to be "too sacred" to be written down, and they were handed down orally. Vedic culture is thought to have come from Russia when the Aryans invaded India around (before) 3500 B.C.E. Historians today are debating whether much of Vedic culture was already present in India, and if the Aryans perhaps just assimilated their ways with the Indians, since they may have been compatible - evidence for this comes from extremely ancient depictions of yogis sitting in meditation in archaeological excavations of the Indus River valley.

Undoubtedly, the Old Testament was not invented on the spot in 1200 B.C.E., and was rather based on earlier Jewish law, legends, and accounts, but it is generally agreed among historians that the earliest Old Testament stories originated around 1500 B.C.E. This date is not absolutely certain, however, but it is unanimously agreed that no stories predated the second millenium B.C.E.

Originally posted by saint4God
With all due respect, if you're going to have my side of the conversation as well, then there's really nothing for me to say either in opposition or agreement.

Hehe, right, sorry, I'm still in Expert999 mode sometimes.

Originally posted by saint4God
I question things in Christianity all time. I am Christian. I can share with you my questions for Christianity if you like...though many of those questions so far have lead to an answer.

This guy wrote a very succinct list of things that don't make sense about Christianity and I tend to agree with most of it. Verily, I can say that most of the items in this list are my own questions. The list is not offensive in any way, and is well worth reading. Some items on the list are debatable or agruable, of course.

Zip

[edit on 7/7/2005 by Zipdot]

Sorry to disagree with you saintgod but hinduism is the oldest religion in the world.

Abraham was accredited with the birth of Judaism, Christianity and Islam, but its something that nobody put into question, and that is that even Abraham left his birth place with his pagan Gods, been Yawhed the main god, later it became the only god, taken in consideration that the old testament is the recollections of the Jewish roots they are the ones that put Abraham as the father of monotheism and the bible creation story.

But in truth monotheism did not became the sole believe for these people until Moses exile.

Now nowhere in the bible it said that Judaism was born with the creation myth.

Judaism is much later. indeed. This alone will put the bible stories and myth into question.

[edit on 7-7-2005 by marg6043]

Originally posted by Zipdot
I would gladly talk to God if he existed. As it is, I do not talk to what I deem to be imaginary entities.

Hehe, catch 22 huh? Can't talk to him without proof, can't get proof without talking to him. Mind if try for you? He's more a "seek and you'll find" God, but I can give it my best.

Originally posted by Zipdot
There is no debate as to what was conceived first (Vedas) and what was practiced first (Hinduism). Hinduism is predated by primitive fertility and sun worshippers. The Old Testament was written as a going concern between the 12th century B.C.E. and a little while before the time of Christ, though I understand most of the canon was assembled between 650 B.C.E. and 300 B.C.E. Though it portends to describe the beginning of the Earth and mankind, I really must ask, who are the witnesses to Genesis I? I don't believe there are any witnesses to Genesis I, and therefore, it is a second hand account. Even if it was written by someone who was told the details by God, it is still hearsay.

The Hebrew people had a long standing oral tradition. It is said God conveyed the first 5 books to Moses, but I would have to check with an expert as to how that conclusion is arrived at. If you want to say Moses didn't witness Genesis but got the whole story from God and is therefore 2nd hand, I'll accept that.

Originally posted by Zipdot
Check out this well-written inquisition entitled, What is the old testament?

www.infidels.org? Really. Fine, fine, I'll check it out and be back with ya.

Originally posted by Zipdot
Hehe, right, sorry, I'm still in Expert999 mode sometimes.

No worries, just want to have a ability to give a response. It may turn out typical, but I've been known to surprise a few people. I don't stop at "the Bible tells me so" because a relationship with God is not a relationship with a book. The Bible gives all kinds of great advice on how to make decisions and sometimes what decisions to make. Test them, question them, discuss them. In the end, they come out right. Sometimes if you've acquired the faith to just do it, then later you find out why it was the right decision. I can go through examples if you like, but generally prefer someone bring up theirs and help sort through the right conclusion that way. It's more meaningful, personal and useful that way.

Originally posted by Zipdot
This guy wrote a very succinct list of things that don't make sense about Christianity and I tend to agree with most of it. Verily, I can say that most of the items in this list are my own questions. The list is not offensive in any way, and is well worth reading. Some items on the list are debatable or agruable, of course.

Zip

If it's important to you, then I'm more that willing to read. I like a lot of these questions. I could address each one but would be much to the annoyance of everyone following the thread. I'll offer to take one topic at a time starting with whichever question you chose. I don't think I can answer all the "why" questions in a single sentence answer...especially those pertaining to biology. I like the biology questions, it was my course of study. Anyhow, pick one and bring them up here or on U2U and we can go from there. I have as much patience as I have days left on earth.

By the way, my answers won't 'make' you believe nor is it my intention. I'm only here to help those who want to establish a better connection with God.

Originally posted by marg6043
Sorry to disagree with you saintgod but hinduism is the oldest religion in the world.

Feel free to disagree without feeling sorry. I'm understanding, respect your point view, and can see you respect mine as well. What qualifies for 'oldest'? Oldest documented? Oldest to carry a title?

Originally posted by marg6043
Now nowhere in the bible it said that Judaism was born with the creation myth.

God has to repeat a few times to the Hebrew people to get them to understand He's the one true God that was there in the beginning. It is because of the polytheistic pick-ups the people kept running into. Does not Judaism begin with the book of Genesis? "In the beginning..." starts my Book.

Originally posted by marg6043
Judaism is much later. indeed. This alone will put the bible stories and myth into question.

The NAME Judaism came later perhaps....just like the name Christian did not develop until after Jesus' resurrection. Personally I don't care if someone calls me a Messianic Jew (though some may disagree who faithfully attend a Messianic temple) or Follower of the Way. Names shmames, God never wanted us to get hung up with the letter of the law (semantics). Do they speak English in heaven? I'm thinking not.

[edit on 7-7-2005 by saint4God]

Saint4god, nobody is talking about titles, the fact is that historical evidence shows that the people following the Hindu religion were practicing their faith before the people following the Jewish religion.
Nobody cared what it was called, but they were practicing, writing and speaking their faith first.

If Jews started practicing after Hindus, their religion isn't as old.
It doesn't matter what you call it or if you call it anything, that is just the way things are. Sort of how time works.
Oldest=first to have any sign of existing.

Originally posted by saint4God

Originally posted by marg6043
Sorry to disagree with you saintgod but hinduism is the oldest religion in the world.

Feel free to disagree without feeling sorry. I'm understanding, respect your point view, and can see you respect mine as well. What qualifies for 'oldest'? Oldest documented? Oldest to carry a title?
[edit on 7-7-2005 by saint4God]

Thanks saint4god for bringing up the obvious to the reference to pagansim in Christianity.

I was ready to jump in when I took the time to read all the way to the end of this post.

1.) The parralels of the past do not refute the truth of the message behind Christianity based on the Word of God.

2. ) The Topic Heading should have really been "Does religion within Christianity have pagonistic rituals, doctrines et.......

I think that people are too fast to negatively generalize against Christianity without doing the real research on their own. It's normal though and Christ even told us ahead of time in the Holy Scriptures that this (Mentality ) would happen. Others are not aware of this becuse they have not read the Truth yet.

God also said that for everything that He has created Satan made a counterfit for. This also means Christianity. It is really no wonder why poeple come against us as Christians. It is also no wonder that we have so many pagonistic cults out there. Satan has been and will continue to deceit man from the Truth. After all this is his ( Satans ) job.

Are the spiritual forces behind this (thought of mere men) getting in the way of their rational thinking and relationship with the One True God ?

The following is a Great Site for you and others to explore if they are willing too allow a discussion in their own mind to entertain the other side of belief. Which I feel that most intellectual people on this site are willing to do. Lets see and maybe this will bring up some questions and answers that really matter of the Validity of the Bible and God Himslef as the Creator and Savoir of this world.

www.equip.org...

Truth,

Thanks for your honest replied,

Now also lets not forget Saint4God, that the bible did not became compiled and written also, much later, that gave plenty of time to make necessary adjustments to what is in it.

You know that the bible old testament was taken from narratives of various sources, some of these sources were more polytheistic than monotheistic.

The end product that we call the old testament was solely the accounts of the historical blood line of the Jewish people, that doesn't make it the historical accounts of the rest of the world at a time.

During the same historical frame in which the people in the bible thrived many have forgotten that other civilizations around the world were also thriving with different beliefs and own accounts of their historical beginnings.

The bible accounts are limited to the middle east nations, but the world was still a bigger place.

Seems to me that the God of the Jewish people that created haven and earth forgot to manifest around the world to the rest of the other civilizations.

Just think about that, it kind of make God with a sense of favoritism.

[edit on 7-7-2005 by marg6043]

Originally posted by Zipdot
Check out this well-written inquisition entitled, What is the old testament?

Okay...so what are we saying here? Sounds like a thesis without compelling evidence one way or another. Pretty decent history reading, a lot I knew already, and some I'd have to check with other sources to say "yeah, that sounds right".

Originally posted by marg6043

The bible accounts are limited to the middle east nations, but the world was still a bigger place.

Seems to me that the God of the Jewish people that created haven and earth forgot to manifest around the world to the rest of the other civilizations.

Just think about that, it kind of make God with a sense of favoritism.

[edit on 7-7-2005 by marg6043]

The answer to your statment above is simply "Jesus." The same- One and Only God of us all, didn't forget the rest of the world as you say. That was the whole reason for Christ and the New Testament. Do you think that God imparted a Spirit of judgement on the rest of the World who hadn't yet heard of the messiah ? That is not the nature of God. The same Spirit that descended upon Christ to spread the news in the New Testament is the same God who imparted His spirit to His disciples and the believers of today to spread the Word of God. This is a prerequesite if you will to the second coming of Christ and it's happening today at an alarming rate.

Mat 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

Keep up the research !

Truth

Truthisoutthere,

Remember also that in the biblical times and compilation, Jesus, God and anybody else had not clue that it was a big continent with people in it.

Christianity was brought to the new world a long time after the bible was written.

Making more believable that it was the word and hand of man and not God who wrote the bible and linked Jesus a Jew to the status of divinity, and then you most wonder why the Jewish people doesn't believe in Jesus as a divinity, that is why Christianity was born and separated from the Jewish believes, making it one religion on its own

This is to whoever was stating that Sunday is not the seventh day it is the first day so Christians changed it to relate more to pagans. Christians use to observe the sabith(sp) on Saturday much like the Jews until Jesus came along and was raised on the seventh day. Therefore from what i have learned that is why it is observed on Sunday now and not Saturday, not because they were trying to get pagans to take notice.

Very interesting to point out the worship of Sun-day, is indeed a pagan gorship day of the Sun-God.

Good point.

Originally posted by saint4God
Okay...so what are we saying here? Sounds like a thesis without compelling evidence one way or another. Pretty decent history reading, a lot I knew already, and some I'd have to check with other sources to say "yeah, that sounds right".

Sorry I took so long to get back on this, my computer crashed yesterday and I've been spending most of the day reloading software (though I was able to sneak in an ATS post earlier).

I'm not saying anything much I just wanted to link to a well-grounded, educational, more-or-less neutral discussion of the history of the Old Testament. Many "history of the Old Testament" discussions on the web are biased in some way or contain extraneous religiosity.

The website that I linked was part of a much larger Humanist work about the Old Testament and the history of Judaism and the Jewish people as a whole. I haven't read the whole thing, but I have read all of the chapters that interested me. No homework here, , but I would recommend checking out the library on that site. It supplies some extremely mature and readable articles on all topics relating to spirituality.

Zip

Originally posted by marg6043
Truthisoutthere,

Christianity was brought to the new world a long time after the bible was written.

Hey marg,

Say What ??????????????? "Christianity was brought to the new world a long time after the bible was written ?"

Can you please elloborate or did you want to take this back ?


Truth

If you read the post prior that that statement will explain that while people were living in the middle east during biblical times, it was civilizacions triving in the west.

For some reason they have not knowledge of Jesus or the ancient people in the bible.

Meaning that the bible historical accounts is and always be part of the middle easten and the civilizacions triving in the area.

It was not until the conqistadores discovered the new world that the people in the west was introduce to Christianity.

They were believiers of many Gods, with a central figure. Just like in ancient bible times the civilizations of the east were mostly believers of many gods with one central figure.

In the east the central God figure became the God of the bible and in the west it was introduced to the heathens found after the discovery.

In the caribean where it was later fill with influeces of african roots due to slaves brought to work in the islands, the dominant church been the catholic church blended the pagan deities with the church saints.

Mexico and the Caribean are rich on this type of cultural mix.

As you see christianity was introduce to the new world long after the bible was written but during the historical accounts of the bible times is no mention of the civilizations of the west.

Originally posted by marg6043
If you read the post prior that that statement will explain that while people were living in the middle east during biblical times, it was civilizacions triving in the west.

For some reason they have not knowledge of Jesus or the ancient people in the bible.

Meaning that the bible historical accounts is and always be part of the middle easten and the civilizacions triving in the area.

It was not until the conqistadores discovered the new world that the people in the west was introduce to Christianity.

They were believiers of many Gods, with a central figure. Just like in ancient bible times the civilizations of the east were mostly believers of many gods with one central figure.

In the east the central God figure became the God of the bible and in the west it was introduced to the heathens found after the discovery.

In the caribean where it was later fill with influeces of african roots due to slaves brought to work in the islands, the dominant church been the catholic church blended the pagan deities with the church saints.

Mexico and the Caribean are rich on this type of cultural mix.

As you see christianity was introduce to the new world long after the bible was written but during the historical accounts of the bible times is no mention of the civilizations of the west.

Point is God didn't forget about any region. He didn't judge and deam people to hell from other lands just because they hadn't heard of Christ yet ? The ministry of Christ started and took place in the middle east and spreaded rather slowly due to travel by foot. Is the Gospel now around the entire globe ?

Have any of you read any of Laurence Gardener's works? Relevant to this thread would be "Realm of the Ring Lords", Chap. 12, but his entire series of books is worth perusing.

My Disclaimer:
As is always the case when reading any work of scholarly research, you must use intelligence, and deductive reasoning skills to form your own conclusions. I do not claim to believe everything which I read, nor should you. I offer this reference only as a source of useful information.

Haven't heard of the book but wil check it out thanks.

Oh yeah- Smart advice on the research and coming to conclusions !

Something we all need to keep in mind.

Truth