Interesting information on the "Christianity is a copy of Pagan Myths" Theory

Originally posted by Nygdan

1. Buddha was born of the virgin Maya, who conceived him without carnal intercourse.
1. Jesus was born of the Virgin Mary who conceived him without carnal intercourse.

But, as the author's note, the mother of the buddha is a married woman, who is not a virgin.

And what was Mary's relationship with Joseph?

When the angel Gabriel revealed to her that she would conceive and bear a son to be named Jesus, who will be called the Son of God and will be King forever, Mary was obviously taken aback and asked how could she being a virgin conceive and bear a child (Lk 1:31-34). If, as a tradition suggests, Joseph and Mary had privately committed themselves to remain virgins even in the married state, Mary's question was that of discerning which was God's will: that she remain a virgin and be childless or marry and be a mother. The angel's answer was that both was God's will: to remain a virgin, though married, and to still bear a child - something humanly impossible becoming divinely possible by the power of the Holy Spirit. Mary's response was an expression both of her submission to God's will and of her faith in his word (Lk 1:38), a submission and faith which are needed not for something difficult but not impossible, as in Zacharias' case, but for something humanly impossible as in Abraham's case too, a submission to God and a faith in him expressing itself in submission to and faith in her husband Joseph (Lk 1:35-48).

The word "convoluted" comes to mind here, but then, it comes to my mind often when wading through such fables of old.

The incarnation of Buddha is recorded to have been brought about by the descent of the divine power called the “Holy Ghost” upon Virgin Maya.

Where is it called the holy ghost?


This also struck me as kind of odd, but here goes:

www.religioustolerance.org...
www.thesupernaturalworld.co.uk...
www.muslimworld.co.uk...
www.thisischurch.com...

In my Buddhist scripture book, borrowed for the long-term from a Japanese hotel room, it is clear that a white elephant enters Maya's body. The verbiage "holy ghost" is not used.

When Jesus descended from his heavenly seat, and entered the body of the Virgin Mary, her womb assumed the appearance of clear, transparent crystal, in which Jesus appeared beautiful as a flower.

? I am not familiar with this at all.

Neither. That page would have been much better off excluding that tidbit. Presumably "The Sources of Christianity, by Khwaja Kamaluddin" sources the idea, but I cannot find much like it by searching the web, beyond stuff like "as a sun ray passes through a crystal, Jesus passed through mary without disturbing her virginity" or something along those lines - obviously not in the bible.

It is called the “Messianic Star”.

How can anything in the buddhist system be called messianic? the messiah is a purely jewish terminology.

Yep, I agree. Maybe the person who wrote that just chose the word because they had a hard time describing a "star that, uh, foretold the birth of the Buddha" in any other terms.

With the birth of Siddhattha there were many wondrous signs - stars and lights in the sky, trees flowering out of season. These were seen from his remote hermitage by the great sage, Asita, who traveled to the palace. He predicted that the child would be a Buddha but wept, knowing that he would dead before the enlightenment.

to the tradition, the ‘Holy Ghost’ had descended, was said to have been

I think that we have to be careful here to distinguish between whats in the gospels and whats associated with christianity. I think, as I noted originally, that we can't just out of hand reject the non-gospel stuff, but it is fair to consider the gospel on its own terms for a while.

Also, how do we distinguish between stuff that was already present in Little Boat Buddhism long before christ and stuff that appeared in buddhism later?

Ah - good question. The changes in Buddhism, and there are a few, are all well documented, due to the huge volume of Buddhist writings that appeared as Buddhism spread throughout India and China. It is a very large subject, due to the spread and age of Buddhism - so large a subject that entire classes are based on the changes in Buddhism.. In short, you ask "how" we can be sure, and my answer to that question is to say "by careful study."

One such example is that the story of Buddha's birth was changed so that he was expelled from Maya in a caesarian section type of leap, so he didn't touch her "parts of shame."

The Bukkyo Dendo Kyokai version of The Teachings of Buddha that I have states this about itself:

The Teaching of Buddha is a collection of writings on the essence of Buddhism, selected and edited from the vast Buddhist canon, presented in a concise, easy-to-read, and nonsectarian format. It also includes a brief history of Buddhism, a listing of the source texts, a glossary of Sanskrit terms, and an index.

The original "regimentation" of Buddhist canon occured long before Christ's alleged existence, and the oldest Tripitaka to exist today was written in 30 B.C.E.

Zip

Originally posted by Zipdot
And what was Mary's relationship with Joseph?

At the point of conception, she was either unmarried, or, according to some tradition of the time, in the one year period between betrothal sexual concecration and living together.

The word "convoluted" comes to mind here, but then, it comes to my mind often when wading through such fables of old.

This isn't the usual apologetics intellectual acrobatics tho, the tradition at the time, apparently, was for a young jewish girl to be married, remain in her families house and not have sex with the husband for a year, afterwhich they move in together and get down to business.

When Jesus descended from his heavenly seat, and entered the body of the Virgin Mary, her womb assumed the appearance of clear, transparent crystal, in which Jesus appeared beautiful as a flower.

? I am not familiar with this at all.

Neither. That page would have been much better off excluding that tidbit. Presumably "The Sources of Christianity, by Khwaja Kamaluddin"
This is an afghani or persian study?? Intersting. Pre-islamic?

Zipdot,

After reading your post it does not differ much from my own sources, we must be reading the same text.

Now going back to Budha he is only one of about 25 or more messiahs, Saviors and sons of God according to history or other beliefs.

Before Christianity was born has been an array of personage that can clearly fit the position of the Son of God in other nations and civilizations accounts.

Is undeniable that most of the stories in the old testament were borrow form other civilizations.

As far back as 1200BC sacred records and traditions from the east shows Virishna as A savior also, from the immaculately conception to the descend to hell and rise from death.

Also we have Beddou born 1027BC that was also seen as the savior but his doctrines were kept over Japan, China and Ceylon he was also from virgin birth as by sacred test.

Here in the western we have also the incarnated God Quexalcote born 300BC from also a virgin birth even the name of the mother is given “Chimalman”.

Then we have Mary the virginal mother of Jesus, in the early times of the church the church was not very happy with their followers worshiping her.

Because they knew that Mary had many attributes and similarities with other Goddesses, like Mariaune, the semitic God-Mother and Queen of Heaven, Aphrodite-Mari, the Syrian version of Ishtar, Juno the blessed virgin, the Moerae or trinity of fates, and many others.

Even the mythological Morning Star Goddess Diana lucifera was assimilated into Christianity as the mother of Mary. If you look into mythological characters of the ancient times they all have similarities with bible characters.

The mother of Krishna also visited by spirits before the birth of her son sound much like virgin Mary visit with the God's angel to announce the importance of her son’s birth.

I can make an account of the similarities of the old testament most important accounts with accounts of other civilizations and they all fit quite well, but most of you are familiar with them.

Nygdan,

COuld you make a similar thread that compares prophecy instead? I mean...non christians do not hold anything to be absolute truth...so comparing 'religion' and 'tradition' will be kind of pointless. Religious tradition can be borrowed, as the Greeks did often. Prophecy however, is an on or off thing. Comparing Buddah to Mo to Zoar to Osiris to Zeus to Odin to ........... its all very subjective

I look forward to your findings

Thanks

Applause from me to Zipdot for his INCREDIBLE research for this conversation.
Definately taking this to a higher levell.... great work!!

I am learning alot here..........


Why don't YOU make that thread Jake?????

[edit on 27-6-2005 by theRiverGoddess]

Originally posted by Jehosephat
marg6043, it is interesting how you make such a uneducated and ideological argument and assume that without a shred of evidance to convince anyone your even remotely right.

It's interesting to note you started this then complained about Marg.

Typical.

I believe in your second complaint making demands about how Marg posts you instructed me to not respond to this thread any more?

Yeah, how's that working out for ya?

My face is SAD that this thread has SLOWED down

I have been learning alot, and been fascinated at this information.
Yes, many of these tidbits I have heard before.........and yes I happen to believe as well, that Christianity has many bases on the Pagan belief system.

The Budhist information however IS new to me.......and I am that this conversation has run aground.

[edit on 28-6-2005 by theRiverGoddess]

Originally posted by theRiverGoddess

My face is SAD that this thread has SLOWED down

I have been learning alot, and been fascinated at this information.
Yes, many of these tidbits I have heard before.........and yes I happen to believe as well, that Christianity has many bases on the Pagan belief system.

The Budhist information however IS new to me.......and I am

that this conversation has run aground.

Fear not!

This person appears to be writing a book covering a lot of subjects, including this one. This web page provides some fascinating insight for all to enjoy.

EDIT: For non-clickers:

III. Christianity was derived as much from Mithraism as from Judaism. Understanding the origin of Mithraism is crucial to understanding the origin of Christianity.

The mystery religion to which early Christianity seems most closely related is Mithraism. Mithra (also spelled Mithras), a Graeco-Persian invention, was born of a virgin on the winter solstice - frequently December 25th in the Julian calendar. Being a solar deity, Mithra was worshipped on Sundays; after Mithra had become amalgamated with Helios, he was depicted with a halo, nimbus, or glory around his head. In some cases it has been difficult to tell if ancient images were intended as depictions of Mithra or Jesus.

The leader of the cult was called a pope (papa) and he ruled from a "mithraeum" on the Vatican Hill in Rome. A prominent iconographic feature in Mithraism was a large key, needed to unlock the celestial gates through which souls of the deceased were believed to pass. It would appear that the "keys of the Kingdom" held by the popes as successors to "St. Peter" derive from Mithra, not from a Palestinian messiah.

The Mithraic priests wore miters, special headdresses from which the Christian bishop's hat was derived. (The Latin name for this Phrygian/Persian hat was mitra - which also was an acceptable Latin spelling for Mithra!) The Mithraists consumed a sacred meal (Myazda) which was completely analogous to the Catholic Eucharistic service (Missa, or Mass). Like the Christians, they celebrated the atoning death of a savior who was resurrected on a Sunday. A major center of Mithraic philosophy was at Tarsus - St. Paul's hometown - in what now is Southeast Turkey.

Zip

[edit on 6/28/2005 by Zipdot]

Originally posted by jake1997
Nygdan,

COuld you make a similar thread that compares prophecy instead?

I wouldn't even know where to start. This is all something that I came across in my readings and then discussions here. I first came across this drawing, of an artifact from around 300 AD depicting Orpheus crucified.



I started a thread about it here, and one of the links that came up, from the eminent and educated Roger_Pearse (who maintains the wonderful Tertullian site and manuscript collection) brought up this site, which had links to two other sites discussing the general and quite popular topic, namely this and this.


Incidentally, that depcition above is generally thought to be a fraud.

non christians do not hold anything to be absolute truth

I wouldn't be too certain about that. Many religions have this sort of localized, relative veneer to them, and behind that is this absolute 'syncretic' godhead to it.

Prophecy however, is an on or off thing

I think that if you mean christian and jewish prophecy have a tendency to be fufiled, I'd have to disagree, especially if its moreso than other religions, but prophecy fufilment is a very subjective thing anyway.

zipdot
The leader of the cult was called a pope (papa) and he ruled from a "mithraeum" on the Vatican Hill in Rome.

I think that this is stretching it far too much. The mitraists didn't have a centralized religion, and every religion had a cult or temple of some sort in rome. Also, I find it doubtful that they called any leader, even if they did have one, a 'papa'. The Metropolitan of Rome/Ravenna came to be called 'pope' long after the empire fell and latin started to degenerate and vulgarize into Italian. The Pope was the great old man of the city, and because of this the public looked upon him fondly as a benevolent father figure, a 'poppa', a vulgarization of "Pater".

I wouldn't say its immpossible that the term existed in the pre-christian empire, but I personally would be surprised.

A major center of Mithraic philosophy was at Tarsus - St. Paul's hometown - in what now is Southeast Turkey

But I think that we will find that Paul, while he may've used paganistic references, was strongly anti-pagan. The gospels tend to smack of the 'your little gods are demons and devils' type stuff. Granted, christianity, outside the gospels, takes on lots of paganistic traditions, or at least fufils the 'urges' that paganism used to fufil. Just look at the Feast of a Saint, and watch his statue get paraded from a house ot the sanctuary to much ul-ulation. But I think that the critical aspect is the gospels.

Originally posted by Nygdan

zipdot
The leader of the cult was called a pope (papa) and he ruled from a "mithraeum" on the Vatican Hill in Rome.

I think that this is stretching it far too much. The mitraists didn't have a centralized religion, and every religion had a cult or temple of some sort in rome. Also, I find it doubtful that they called any leader, even if they did have one, a 'papa'. The Metropolitan of Rome/Ravenna came to be called 'pope' long after the empire fell and latin started to degenerate and vulgarize into Italian. The Pope was the great old man of the city, and because of this the public looked upon him fondly as a benevolent father figure, a 'poppa', a vulgarization of "Pater".

I wouldn't say its immpossible that the term existed in the pre-christian empire, but I personally would be surprised.

Yes, I agree that it is surprising.

www.rozanehmagazine.com...
The Vatican Hill in Rome considered sacred to Peter was previously sacred to Mithras. The cave of the Vatican was a Mithraeum until December 25, 376 AD, the birthday of the sun god, when a city prefect suppressed Mithraism and seized the grotto in the name of Christ. Mithraic artefacts found in the Vatican Grotto were taken over by the Church.

The head of the Mithraic faith was the Pater Patrum, the 'Father of Fathers,' who sat in the Vatican cave. The Mithraic Holy father wore a red cap and garment and a ring, and carried a shepherd's staff. The head of the Christian faith, the bishop of Rome, adopted the same title and dressed himself in the same manner, becoming the 'Papa' or 'Father'—the Pope—who subsequently sat literally in the same seat in Rome as the Pater Patrum! The throne of St Peter at Rome is older than the Church. From the carved motifs decorating it, it was Mithraic.

All Christian priests, like Mithraic priests, became 'Father', despite an editor of Matthew's specific repudiation of this and several other rival religious habits on Jesus's behalf:

But you are not to be called rabbi, for you have one teacher, and you are all brethren. And call no man your father on earth, for you have one Father, who is in heaven. Neither be called masters, for you have one master, the Christ. (Matthew 23:8-10)

El líder del culto ha sido llamado "El Papa" y gobernó desde un "mithraeum" sobre
la Colina Vaticana en Roma.

Mitráico era chamado de Papa e ele governava de um "mithraeum" na Colina Vaticano

Il massimo sacerdote del culto era chiamato papa, e governava da un "mithraeum"
sul Colle Vaticano a Roma

www.ecauldron.com...
g. Mithra's cave-temple on the Vatican Hill was seized by the
Christians in 376 CE.

(1) Christian Bishops of Rome pre-empted the Mithraic high
priest's title of Pater Patrum, which became Papa, or Pope.

from WikiPedia:
Mithraic ranks
The members of a mithraeum were divided into seven ranks. All members were apparently expected to progress through the first four ranks, while only a few would go on to the three higher ranks. The first four ranks seem to represent spiritual progress, while the other three appear to have been specialized offices. The seven ranks were:

Corax (raven)
Nymphus (bride)
Miles (soldier)
Leo (lion)
Perses (Persian)
Heliodromus (sun-courier)
Pater (father)

Zip

Actually the fullfilled propehcies of the ancients were actually proven after the facts, in other words they became fulfilled prophecies before the text were written, making them look real.

But since the new testament actually prophecies has come to a stand still.

Many religious believers will tell you, that if the bible was not written by "God" how come so many prophecies has been fulfilled?

Well all these so call prophecies were more of bringing out parts of the stories of the old testament to match the new testament accounts.

One of the best so called writter of fulfilled prophecies was Mattew, in his recolection of his version of Jesus in the bible he does a good comparison of prophecies fulfilled.

No only Mithraism, beliefs were borrowed by Christianity but Zoroastrianism and Budhaism too.

Mithras was known as the light, the way and the truth, he was also the "son of God" and "the good sheperd" sounds familiar?

Mithras was shown also as carrying a lamb on his shoulders, Sunday was known as the "lords day" before Jesus was born.

Christian lent was also borrow from Mithraism, when Mithras died he was put to rest in a rock tomb called "Petra" after three days the rock was removed and in festivals of great joy.

Now what many Christian believers doesn't know is that centuries later this were incorporated in the bible and the sacred Rock became "Peter" and the foundation of christian Church.

In Matthew 16:18, "Thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church"

Funny that all this acounts of Mithras believes and stories were centuries old by the time Christianity was born.

The fact is that Paul never knew Jesus, but he had a big influence in taking Jesus out of Judaism and sourround him with Mithraism, even the Hebrew Sabbath, became the Mithraic "Sun day"

The Mithraism holy days became the Christian days, like Christmas, Easter, lent, and the spring resurrection festival, even the Christian Mass was part of the Mithraism rituals.

Now Zipdot You already covered Budhaism and part of Mithraism how about Zoroaster.



[edit on 29-6-2005 by marg6043]

Speaking about prophecies, in my experience, during my time as a Christian, I would estimate that the overwhelming majority of Christians that I discussed religion with did not know why Jews do not accept Jesus as their messiah. I think that this is largely unexplored territory for young Christians, and I think that a very pointed Jewish discussion of their rejection of Jesus may be beneficial reading for those who, in the words of Peter Tosh, "go to church to search."

Here's a small excerpt that kind of summarizes things.

1) JESUS DID NOT FULFILL THE MESSIANIC PROPHECIES (back)

What is the Messiah supposed to accomplish? The Bible says that he will:

A. Build the Third Temple (Ezekiel 37:26-28).

B. Gather all Jews back to the Land of Israel (Isaiah 43:5-6).

C. Usher in an era of world peace, and end all hatred, oppression, suffering and disease. As it says: "Nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall man learn war anymore." (Isaiah 2:4)

D. Spread universal knowledge of the God of Israel, which will unite humanity as one. As it says: "God will be King over all the world -- on that day, God will be One and His Name will be One" (Zechariah 14:9).

The historical fact is that Jesus fulfilled none of these messianic prophecies.

Christians counter that Jesus will fulfill these in the Second Coming, but Jewish sources show that the Messiah will fulfill the prophecies outright, and no concept of a second coming exists.

...

The Messiah will lead the Jewish people to full Torah observance. The Torah states that all mitzvot (commandments) remain binding forever, and anyone coming to change the Torah is immediately identified as a false prophet. (Deut. 13:1-4)

Throughout the New Testament, Jesus contradicts the Torah and states that its commandments are no longer applicable. (see John 1:45 and 9:16, Acts 3:22 and 7:37) For example, John 9:14 records that Jesus made a paste in violation of Shabbat, which caused the Pharisees to say (verse 16), "He does not observe Shabbat!"

Zip

[edit on 6/29/2005 by Zipdot]

You are right that Jesus did not fulfill the Messiah requirements by Jewish standards.

But he scored very well under Christian standards.

1- He must be of the seed of Abraham. Gen 22:18

2- He must be of the tribe of Judah. Gen 49:10

3- He must be of the house of David. Isaiah 9:7

4- He must be born of a virgin. Isaiah 7:14

5- He must be born in Behlehem. Micah 5:2

6- He must be God. Isaiah 9:6

Yes he has all the early church qualifications.

The fact is, he didn't match the Jewish requirements. Had he done so, there would not be a rift between Jews and Christians today.

from the same page
3) MISTRANSLATED VERSES "REFERRING" TO JESUS

Biblical verses can only be understood by studying the original Hebrew text -- which reveals many discrepancies in the Christian translation.

A. VIRGIN BIRTH

The Christian idea of a virgin birth is derived from the verse in Isaiah 7:14 describing an "alma" as giving birth. The word "alma" has always meant a young woman, but Christian theologians came centuries later and translated it as "virgin." This accords Jesus' birth with the first century pagan idea of mortals being impregnated by gods.

B. CRUCIFIXION

The verse in Psalms 22:17 reads: "Like a lion, they are at my hands and feet." The Hebrew word ki-ari (like a lion) is grammatically similar to the word "gouged." Thus Christianity reads the verse as a reference to crucifixion: "They pierced my hands and feet."

JEWISH BELIEF IS BASED SOLELY ON NATIONAL REVELATION

Of the 15,000 religions in human history, only Judaism bases its belief on national revelation -- i.e. God speaking to the entire nation. If God is going to start a religion, it makes sense He'll tell everyone, not just one person.

The Catholic idea of Trinity breaks God into three separate beings: The Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost (Matthew 28:19).

Contrast this to the Shema, the basis of Jewish belief: "Hear O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is ONE" (Deut. 6:4). Jews declare the Shema every day, while writing it on doorposts (Mezuzah), and binding it to the hand and head (Tefillin). This statement of God's One-ness is the first words a Jewish child is taught to say, and the last words uttered before a Jew dies.

Zip

Originally posted by Zipdot
in the words of Peter Tosh, "go to church to search

ummm, Zipdot? The only Peter Tosh I know of is a singer/musician......you can't mean him do you? That would bring Reggae music into this mix as well?

Hehe, the one and only.

Originally spoken by Peter Tosh
"And I ask why am I black, they say I was born in sin, and shamed inequity. One of the main songs we used to sing in church makes me sick, ‘love wash me and I shall be whiter than snow’"

"In my search I heard of the name God. I go to church and they say God made man in the likeness of his own image. If I made a doll it is quite obvious that the doll must look like me, but still I am faced with the ignorance , lost into fantasy seeking to find the reality in what they taught me of this illusion of God."

Zip

kewlerz Zip....wow I am so proud of myself for actually being on top of that tidbit.
Peter Tosh RULES the reggea world IMO



NOW lets hear some Zoroaster information on THIS very interesting topic....I am with Marg on that front.........inquireing minds wanna KNOW. I have heard of Zoroasters before, but do not know who they are of what they were representing. Are they aslo condidered Pagans?




[edit on 29-6-2005 by theRiverGoddess]

Yes, it's too bad that he was shot dead by assassins. (Peter MacIntosh, that is).



This is Zoroaster, a familiar-looking haloed Iranian prophet and founder of Zoroastrianism.

This from an interesting (self proclaimed) Muslim-Christian discussion website.

Again, if we adopt the Muslim attitude towards the Bible and use it to criticise Islam, we can easily say, like our Muslim critics, that much of Islam came from hearsay. For example Miraj - the ascent of Muhammad to heaven and the passing visit to hell, may be found in ancient Zoroastrian tales dating some four hundred years before the time of Muhammad.

The Magi of Persia sought to revive the faith in people’s hearts and they sent a Zoroastrian up to heaven to bring some news. An angel took him to the heavenly realms, where he met the heavenly leaders. He was shown Paradise and Hell. At last he was taken into the presence of Ormazd, the god of Zoroastrianism and his company of angels. Ormazd was like a brilliant light, but with no appearance of a body.

4 In another work such as the Zardusht Namah, the person who ascended up to heaven and then came back was Zoroaster himself.5 If such similarity does not mean Islam has its origin in pre-Islamic sources, then one should not use the same yardstick when looking at the Bible.

Zip

[edit on 6/29/2005 by Zipdot]

Originally posted by marg6043
Now what many Christian believers doesn't know is that centuries later this were incorporated in the bible and the sacred Rock became "Peter" and the foundation of christian Church.

In Matthew 16:18, "Thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church"

You will get no argument from me that catholicism has many false elements in it. It is not true christianity. Catholicism is not the christian church.

Peter is not the rock on which the christian church was founded. Jesus Christ is the rock of christianity. Peter's statement in Matthew 16:16 that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the Living God, is the statement that is the foundation of Christianity.

The church(individuals who accept Christ alone as their basis for having their sins forgiven and removed), is made up of people.