Debate Tournament Commentary

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posted on Aug, 7 2005 @ 07:55 PM
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Vagabond
Yeah, it works wonders, when you actually preempt the lines of argument your opponent was planning to use. Otherwise it's a waste of precious words.

Although, over the course of the debate I've only come close to going over once, so I think the word limits are just right. Actually, the closing remark of my last debate was the only time I felt constricted by the word limit.

In any case, I hope the Libra recognizes the difference between friendly banter and true agression on my part. I think the debates work best with a slight adversarial tone, but I don't want to go overboard with it.




posted on Aug, 7 2005 @ 08:16 PM
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Adversarial is definately necessary. If you go kid-gloves you can imply acquiesence to your opponent's logic. I trust that both of you will be able to take it to one another with all due aggression and yet not be enemies.

Upon reading the debate, I would say that Libra might have squandered a few words, and perhaps even deterred WydreOne from walking into a trap by mentioning that the protections of the US constitution could/should be applied to Gitmo. If I were in this round, I'd want, and maybe even try to bait my opponent into bringing up the application of the constitution, so that I could hammer on him for going "chewbacca" and changing the subject.

I see weaknesses in both sides now that I have some small feel for their arguments. It is not my place to point out which provisions each side may be setting up to ignore or misinterpret in the course of their argument, but I will say that WyrdeOne had better come out swinging with well-selected quotes and highly respected interpretations thereof to avoid getting run over in the early stages.

I could be very badly misunderstanding what either side intends to do, but they are each doing what I suspect, I think WyrdeOne may find himself getting bulldozed both in this exchange and the second, although he may be able to do some big damage in the third if he's going the route I suspect.

Good luck to you both- if you both argue your angles convincingly and catch eachothers mistakes consistently, this could be VERY close.



posted on Aug, 7 2005 @ 08:22 PM
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The title of this thread is misleading..... as to comment directly on the debate(s) would be to indirectly interfere with the process......

Suffice to say that the debate thus far has been exactly what I would have expected from the combatants........Spectacular. I am particularly excited by the tactics employed.....far above and beyond the analysis I could have encountered in other medias......

I will say that the supposition of an opponent's strategy would have to be spot on.....word count can be a valuable thing to waste....but as the point of a debate is to interact with the rhetoric of your opponent, the tactic can not be downplayed....



posted on Aug, 7 2005 @ 08:34 PM
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Eh, Mem's right. As contestants, we really shouldn't take table-talk into this forum. Our word-count is limited for a reason, and this could be construed as an attempt to get in additional wossnames... I'm gonna sacrifice last word, even though I'm right and WyrdeOne is wrong.


And no hard feelings about the debate. It's all in the style and glitz of the thing.



posted on Aug, 7 2005 @ 08:52 PM
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Anyway, moving right along, since we're within 9 days or less of the tournament ending, it's time for those of us who got hooked on this to start shopping for grudge matches.

Anybody game? Ktprktpr, HowMuchIsTheDoggy, and Memoryshock especially are on my list of favored opponents. All eliminated in the middle rounds by tough opponents. We could give eachother some good practice
.

So who wants to get the grudge matches going after the tournament (assuming the judges and mods are up for it)?



posted on Aug, 7 2005 @ 09:08 PM
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Originally posted by The Vagabond
So who wants to get the grudge matches going after the tournament (assuming the judges and mods are up for it)?


I'm willing to give judges and mods a grace period of a couple of weeks....

What are the topics you want to throw around? I'm well aware of your aptitude (actually, considering your clarity, aptitude is inadequate an adjective) with government.......though I have to warn you of my expertise in sociology......almost a match begging to take place......

I hereby urge a response to this post (by The Vagabond) to encourage a reason by which I may foster a grudge..........



posted on Aug, 8 2005 @ 01:11 AM
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No real grudge between us bro, but if helps get your riled up, I'm pretty sure I can go tic for tac on most social issues, long as it isn't obviously one sided. I'm more a foreign policy man myself, but I'm sure we'll find something closer to home for me to narrowly beat you at
.

How would you feel about gun control, specifically assault rifles? Me for legality, you against? Up your alley?

Edit because questions aren't ended with periods. (doesn't bode well for me in the debate does it Mem?) lol

[edit on 8-8-2005 by The Vagabond]



posted on Aug, 8 2005 @ 02:49 AM
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Arghh matey, me meatloaf's done.

Say it with me now.."Beefy!"

You're up good buddy.



posted on Aug, 8 2005 @ 03:05 AM
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....is what it's all about!!!

Two excellent debators giving it both barrels. I must say that Wyrd certainly baked a tasty Meatloaf and it will be interesting to see if theLibra will choke on it or not.

Not only has Wyrd thrown the debate wide open, he has also revealed other questions and debates that the likes of Bush & Co. would rather we weren't having!!!

This is turning into a cracker of a debate!! And it is only the 1st responses!!Well done guys!



posted on Aug, 8 2005 @ 04:03 AM
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Well played by WyrdeOne, although he made one crucial mistake... I'm pretty sure it's Chef Boyardee (spelling?) Raviolli which is "Beefy".

I'm not a big fan of the quote and respond style myself, mainly because it takes up words but also because it smacks a bit of the usual forum back and forth and I prefer a more formal style.
Never the less, WyrdeOne got a few good ones in and as far as I can see he avoided most of the potential traps which come with his position.

Can't wait to see Libra's response. Sure to be a good one. Neither side is serving tofu here.



posted on Aug, 8 2005 @ 10:56 AM
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Originally posted by The Vagabond
Anybody game? Ktprktpr, HowMuchIsTheDoggy, and Memoryshock especially are on my list of favored opponents. All eliminated in the middle rounds by tough opponents. We could give eachother some good practice
.


I'm game Boss!!

I would relish the chance to cross swords with you. Any topic - Any time. I would consider it a valuble learning experience and a good stretching of the old muscle between the ears before the winter debates and my planned blitzkrieg now that I am blooded in the ways of ATS debate.

May I also suggest the moddy types set up a forum exclusively for suggesting debate topics? Everyone who participated in this tournament should then contribute about 10 good, original and non-lopsided topics. That way I will have no excuse to whine next time around!!!! kptrkptr suggested some crackers earlier on in this thread and I hope amory and nygdan had their pencils and paper out!



posted on Aug, 8 2005 @ 02:08 PM
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Originally posted by The Vagabond
No real grudge between us bro, but if helps get your riled up, I'm pretty sure I can go tic for tac on most social issues, long as it isn't obviously one sided.


No real grudge indeed, my good friend.....just a play on words and I'm always one to incline towards the dramatic.......and I'm all for keeping the topic as two-sided as well......


The Vagabond
I'm more a foreign policy man myself, but I'm sure we'll find something closer to home for me to narrowly beat you at
.


........tell you what......we'll pick a foriegn policy topic if it suits you..pick a couple that you like....I have a feeling you could use the handicap (will he take the bait?)...


Besides, Firearms don't suit me......I'm sure I'll catch heat(pun intended) for that, so have at it guys...

howmuchisthedoggy seems to be in on this too.......looks like we'll be grudgematching away.......maybe we should start flipping coins?



posted on Aug, 8 2005 @ 03:41 PM
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I just posted my 2nd Response, if the previous reply was a meat loaf, this one should prove to be ribeye....

hmmm.... steak...

(wanders off to go eat)



posted on Aug, 8 2005 @ 05:20 PM
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Way to shoot yourself in the foot Libra. Get the judges hungry right before you send them to read your post. Ever occur to you that they might lose their place and miss something important when they go out to turn the steaks on the grill?

Speaking of which, I haven't eaten since midnight (never mind why I was up all night) so I think I'll run out and grab something before I check out your ribeye.


As for taking MemoryShock's bait- I'm tempted to be honest. Let me just lay out a couple of favored topics in a host of arenas, and if you see one that strikes your fancy, point it out. If not, feel free to offer your own list- maybe you'll get something I didn't think of. I'd like to draw special attention to the bottom of this post where i list a number of non-political subjects. I've thrown you a couple of bones which might be right up your alley.

Abroad I'm prepared to argue:
-Either side of the Palestine/Israel Conflict- if the topic is worded right.
-Against AIDS relief to African nations (talk about an unfavorable position, I'm really tempting fate by offering that one, but I feel gutsy)
-For extensive US military involvement in and heavy economic assisstance to East African Nations
-Either side of the military rearmament of Japan

At home I'm prepared to argue:
-Either side of splitting California into two states.
-In favor of maintaining an electoral system over a simple popular vote
-Against impeaching Bush for misleading us into Iraq
-Either side of affirmative action (although i'd prefer to argue against)


Other than politics:
-Either side of the ancient nuclear war theory
-Either side of Bigfoot's probable existence
-Either side of the existence of a large underground base beneath Denver Airport
-Either side of "Radio-based mind control towers are currently being used against the population of the United States" (I'm careful about the wording here because this topic invites a situation where I have to prove a negative, which could be ugly)


If it were up to me to pick, my three favorites are, in order:
ancient nuclear war
extenisve aid and involvement in East Africa
Bush impeachment



posted on Aug, 8 2005 @ 07:06 PM
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Originally posted by The Vagabond
Abroad I'm prepared to argue:
-Against AIDS relief to African nations (talk about an unfavorable position, I'm really tempting fate by offering that one, but I feel gutsy)
ions
-Either side of the military rearmament of Japan


These two abroad.....You really are tempting fate with offering to argue against AIDS relief...


Originally posted by The Vagabond
-In favor of maintaining an electoral system over a simple popular vote
-Against impeaching Bush for misleading us into Iraq
-Either side of affirmative action (although i'd prefer to argue against)


I could argue against electoral....in favor of impeachment (that would be a tough one, imo, to argue the position you have opted for....I'm tempted to go with it just to see what you have on those lines...)....And I could do an affirmative action debate.....it's a touchy topic to tackle, which is where my reticence comes into play, but it has the makings of excellent debate with relevance to both sides...


Originally posted by The Vagabond
Other than politics:
-Either side of the ancient nuclear war theory
-Either side of "Radio-based mind control towers are currently being used against the population of the United States" (I'm careful about the wording here because this topic invites a situation where I have to prove a negative, which could be ugly)


Interesting....No dice with BigFoot or the Denver Airport....kind of lopsided...

The Ancient Nuclear War would be interesting but I may decline due to the fact that I just finished a similar topic.....realistically, it could be argued.....if I knew what I had known at the end of my loss to OTS when I began the debate, I would have omitted my Nuclear angle.....the crux of my position was necessitated due to the conflict of my attempting to reseach and learn a position I was completely in the dark on and time constraints.....ohs a wella

Radio-Based Mind Control Towers would be kind of fun as well......immediately, I can think of several angles for either side that would send that debate in a direction that would be entirely unexpected....

A ktpr suggestion....
Is Pre-Emptive War Ever Justified?

A WyrdeOne suggestion (I think) that I would love to debate on the pro side, but only if the con were a believer in their position...
Mental Illness is a Result of Modern Society....the wording would have to be reworked.....

Finally, an off the wall topic would be fun and excellent mental work....I really loved howmuchisthedoggy's suggestion...
Who needs whales?

We may not go with this one, The Vagabond....but I will get someone to argue this with me.....



The Vagabond
If it were up to me to pick, my three favorites are, in order:
ancient nuclear war
extenisve aid and involvement in East Africa
Bush impeachment


My top three....with the understanding that "Who Needs Whales?" is my favorite...

Mental Illness is a Result of Modern Society..with the wording reworked...
Bush Impeachment
Electoral Vs Popular vote....

[edit on 8-8-2005 by MemoryShock]



posted on Aug, 8 2005 @ 07:35 PM
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Well, the who needs whales debate is out of the question for me because the answer is obvious. Endangered Sea Mammals make the best Tuna.

I could argue that mental illness is not primarily an effect of modern society, but I'd be splitting hairs to make that argument and there wouldn't be too much in the way of "evidence" for my side since they weren't doing the same quality of study 200 years ago, much less did they understand the bio-chemical processes behind it. Then you've got to factor in drugs. Seems a little lopsided to me.

So I suppose if you're game for it I'll argue against impeaching Bush. I realize I'm taking a big handicap depending on who the judges are, but I actually have a pretty decent angle I think. I would want to phrase it as "George Bush should be impeached for misleading the country into war with Iraq" or something similiar. It's hardly even debatable that legal justification exists, but the aspect I really want to debate is whether or not it is the right thing to do for America.



posted on Aug, 8 2005 @ 08:08 PM
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Originally posted by The Vagabond
Well, the who needs whales debate is out of the question for me because the answer is obvious. Endangered Sea Mammals make the best Tuna.


Hence why I want to debate this topic......the emphasis on rhetoric would make for a great mental exercise...


Originally posted by The Vagabond
So I suppose if you're game for it I'll argue against impeaching Bush. I realize I'm taking a big handicap depending on who the judges are, but I actually have a pretty decent angle I think. I would want to phrase it as "George Bush should be impeached for misleading the country into war with Iraq" or something similiar. It's hardly even debatable that legal justification exists, but the aspect I really want to debate is whether or not it is the right thing to do for America.


I'm game.....and I especially like the direction you are interested in taking the arguement...something I could really sink my teeth into as well as the broader range for interpretation.....it would help to limit the 'handicap' if not eliminate it, as both sides are arguing 'progressively'.....also, the legal justification would be a no-brainer and I don't want to get stuck arguing two different things.

I support phrasing of the topic to reflect that.

A date for commencement would now be a consideration, I believe.....

[edit on 8-8-2005 by MemoryShock]



posted on Aug, 8 2005 @ 09:23 PM
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Seems like the date depends on the people who make it happen for us. The debate is going fairly fast. We'll talk to Amory then, see if his judges need some R&R before we go into extra innings.



posted on Aug, 8 2005 @ 09:41 PM
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Well, let's see...
1. Let's finish what we've started first, eh?
2. I'd like to move into college
3. New judges can be coerced
4. Nygdan and I have some things hopefully planned
5. There are other people around here, as well
6. All that aside, okay, hit me



posted on Aug, 9 2005 @ 08:16 AM
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Amory -


You didn't actually think we came here to have ourselves a walk in the park, did you?

Only six items on the list........I think he's trying to hide time to sit in front of the T.V. with a bowl of ice cream.......


That....I cannot allow....


[edit on 9-8-2005 by MemoryShock]





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