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WAR: Italian Judge Orders Arrest of 13 CIA Agents

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posted on Jun, 24 2005 @ 03:55 PM
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Originally posted by UofCinLA
We need facts like:

1. Was the Abu an Egyptian citizen or Italian at the time?


How does it matter ? People are equal before justice.


2. Is our extradition treaty in place with Italy and was there signoff on this op at some point along the way by the Italian gov e.g. their CIA equivalent that I'm sure the judges would be unaware of?


Well, but they would have informed a judge before he gave way to a prosecutor's demand , wouldnt they ? I doubt that a ministerial decree, or something like that, could give a foreign secret service right of operation in Italy. I also doubt italian secret services themselves have the right of incommunicado kidnapping unapproved by a judge in Italy.


3. Did the Abu do some bad in Egypt that they wanted him back and what is the status of their extradition treaty with Italy?


You mean, the CIA only enforced legitimate egyptian interests in Italy ? Hmmm, adds an interesting twist



[edit on 24-6-2005 by Moretti]




posted on Jun, 24 2005 @ 11:22 PM
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Originally posted by John bull 1

Originally posted by FredTSeized is more accurate and then deported them to Egypt.

These terms are only applicable if the the legal procedure has been followed.


From the perspective of the CIA agents, the operation must have been aurthorized from above the directors level. That makes it "legal" in thier eyes. No doubt the lawyers reviewed this prior to the op. Rember that the current AG also authored the justification for Gitmo et al. My responce was from odium comment. Arrested implies a legal process since he was never taken before a court and actually charged, then he really could not have been arrested. If we want to quibble on symantics then maybe expatriated is a better term then deported.


Originally posted by odiumArrested someone without letting the Italian Government know? Deported him from an American Air Force base?



posted on Jun, 24 2005 @ 11:45 PM
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Originally posted by John bull 1
The big question in my mind is, did the U.S government ask for extradition officially ? Were they turned downand then turned to criminal alternatives ? Or maybe they figured legal extradition meant they couldn't get the guy to Egypt where they could torture him.


Hmm does Italy have an extradition treaty with Egypt? Does the EU allow such an extradition to a country with the death penalty? My other question is if they went to all of this trouble to do this, why not take him to Gitmo etc. I would not be surprised if Gitmo was in addition to being a terrorist detainment camp, a distraction or cover for a smaller Club Langley being staged somewhere else.



posted on Jun, 25 2005 @ 04:19 AM
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Wow, this has to be arecord for double talk



A CIA spokesperson in Washington said: "We're not even not commenting. We're saying: if we have anything to say, we'll get back to you." The U.S. embassy in Rome declined comment.
CIA Speak



posted on Jun, 25 2005 @ 04:43 AM
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Let me get this right.
13 CIA agents? 1 Man. Who is Italy trying to fool on this deal?
Reveal how many CIA identities? Not gonna happen.

The war on terror should be without boundary, and this issue seems to more about posturing then anything else. It couldnt have anything to do with their undercover guy being shot could it?

How about them hundreds of bullets that supposedly killing one guy. And in reviewing the car, there are possibly three visible bullet marks.

This isnt about extradition, this is about pride and hype.

Peace


[edit on 25-6-2005 by HIFIGUY]



posted on Jun, 25 2005 @ 05:58 AM
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Originally posted by HIFIGUY
Let me get this right.
13 CIA agents? 1 Man. Who is Italy trying to fool on this deal?
Reveal how many CIA identities? Not gonna happen.

The war on terror should be without boundary, and this issue seems to more about posturing then anything else. It couldnt have anything to do with their undercover guy being shot could it?

How about them hundreds of bullets that supposedly killing one guy. And in reviewing the car, there are possibly three visible bullet marks.

This isnt about extradition, this is about pride and hype.

Peace

Let me get this straight. Lets say China views terrorists (democracy advocates) residing in the United States as a threat. With your "no borders" logic, the Chinese should be allowed to waltz into America, capture American citizens and whisk them off to where ever they want.

When America complains about China's actions the Chinese should just say "We're prosecuting the War on Terror, we view no borders in this war".

Great precedent to set

Thats not a warm fuzzy feeling, thats you peeing your pants.



posted on Jun, 25 2005 @ 06:23 AM
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I'm glad that there are some People in this World that want to show the Teeth to this so-called Intelligence Agencies.

Too bad they probably wont ever win - just as in numerous cases in the Past History, when CIA was accused, but nothing really happened.



posted on Jun, 25 2005 @ 06:39 AM
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Originally posted by subz
Let me get this straight. Lets say China views terrorists (democracy advocates) residing in the United States as a threat. With your "no borders" logic, the Chinese should be allowed to waltz into America, capture American citizens and whisk them off to where ever they want.


I could not have put this better. Would it be allowed? Not at all. Remember that one mans terroist is another's freedom fighter etc. National Security operations are just that, however, to conduct such an op in an allied country that is actually part of the anti-terror campaign is really a bit much.



posted on Jun, 25 2005 @ 06:55 AM
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Arrest: To seize and hold under the authority of law.

The C.I.A. has the authority to seize and hold people in international nations without the hosts permission, they've done it before. So it is still classed as arresting them.


But back to the topic at hand:

Does anyone think that this will help the War on Terror? Going into Allied Nations and taking people as you choose? To me this seems as though you'll only make more people angry towards America and only help more Terrorists gain others on their side.

We are meant to be the "Good Guys" so when do we start acting like it?



posted on Jun, 25 2005 @ 07:08 AM
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Originally posted by Odium
Arrest: To seize and hold under the authority of law.

The C.I.A. has the authority to seize and hold people in international nations without the hosts permission, they've done it before. So it is still classed as arresting them.



Erm, the CIA might have the authority to seize and hold people in international nations by the US goverment, but that doesn't make it in any way legal under international and/or local law of the country they are operating in.
If they don't work together with the nation, have laws in place in the nation in question to alow it or notify the nation in question about their activities, they are acting in illegality.

And having done something before doesn't mean its legal either. It only means they are repeated offenders ...



posted on Jun, 25 2005 @ 08:11 AM
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thematrix, I was explaining why I used the term arrested. I know enough about International Law, Rights of the Detainee and European Law if I didn't I would have never been accepted to Middle Temple for my training contract.



posted on Jun, 25 2005 @ 09:07 AM
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Are we absolutely sure the people the judge ordered arrested are CIA?

For the CIA to abduct a man from Italy and then fly him to Egypt for detention and questioning by the Egyptian government seems more than a bit strange. Especially when the Egyptian government released him in fairly short order and the man then tells his story to the press. If this is really a CIA operation then it's one of the most bungled operations in history.



posted on Jun, 25 2005 @ 09:31 AM
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Originally posted by Astronomer68
If this is really a CIA operation then it's one of the most bungled operations in history.


Operation Eagle Claw ring a bell?



posted on Jun, 25 2005 @ 09:35 AM
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Operation Eagle Claw was not a CIA operation, it was a military operation put together by the Carter administration.



posted on Jun, 25 2005 @ 09:40 AM
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Originally posted by Astronomer68
Operation Eagle Claw was not a CIA operation, it was a military operation put together by the Carter administration.


www.specwarnet.com...

It was teh attempt to rescue the US hostages in Iran. It was quite an oepration if they could have pulled it off.



posted on Jun, 25 2005 @ 09:42 AM
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Yeah, with a nice list of most of the CIA operatives (in Iran and the Middle East) left in one of the helicopters. That's slightly worse then this operation and the CIA helped with Operation Eagle Claw.



posted on Jun, 25 2005 @ 10:02 AM
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[edit on 25-6-2005 by Astronomer68]



posted on Jun, 25 2005 @ 10:41 AM
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Nice Read regarding CIA History:

www.serendipity.li...

[edit on 25/6/05 by Souljah]



posted on Jun, 26 2005 @ 01:27 AM
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Being that Italy is supposed to be considered an ally, the proper protocol here would have been to inform the Italian government of the person who is considered a threat or whatever, and work with them on the solution. Not go in on your own and remove someone there.

I'm not criticizing the operation itself because I (and none of you) know what the person is accused of, but it is clear to everyone, I believe, that when conducting operations in an allied country, it is proper to go to them first.

Italy is correct for being pissed off, and this issue should be worked out diplomatically between the two countries. Clearly an Italian arrest warrant for 13 CIA employees that are 99.9% no longer in Italy is a complete waste of time and will not come to fruition.



posted on Jun, 30 2005 @ 05:53 AM
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www.taipeitimes.com...


Italy, Interpol track purported CIA men
ARREST WARRANTS: Italian prosecutors want to bring 13 purported CIA officials to trial, accusing them of kidnapping a Muslim cleric and aiding his torture in Egypt

AP , ROME
Thursday, Jun 30, 2005,Page 6

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Italian prosecutors want to extradite 13 purported CIA officials accused of kidnapping a radical Muslim cleric and transporting him to Egypt where he reportedly was tortured, and they've asked Interpol to help track down the Americans, a court official said on Tuesday.

A man identified as the former CIA station chief in Milan is among the 13, according to court papers.

Egyptian cleric Osama Moustafa Hassan Nasr -- also known as Abu Omar and believed to belong to an Islamic terror group -- was seized on Feb. 17, 2003 in Milan, purportedly as part of the CIA's "extraordinary rendition" program in which terror suspects are transferred to third countries without legal approval.

The extradition effort and arrest warrants filed in the case marks a rare public objection to the practice by a close US ally in its war on terrorism. Opposition deputy Marco Minniti called the Nasr abduction "the most serious violation of national sovereignty in the history of the republic."

US officials defend the practice of "extraordinary rendition," saying they receive assurances that terror suspects handed over to foreign governments won't be tortured. They acknowledge, though, that once a transfer occurs, the US has little control.

Prosecutors have asked Interpol help in tracing the suspects, all identified as US citizens, said the court official who asked not to be named because the inquiry is still under way.

In announcing the arrest warrants on Friday, the Milan prosecutor's office said it will ask for US and Egyptian assistance in the case.

The 213-page order notes the arrests are needed in part because the suspects' links to "foreign intelligence services" give them the particular ability to destroy evidence in the case and hinder the investigation.

Among the 13, according to court papers, is a man identified as the former CIA station chief in Milan.

The US Embassy in Rome, the CIA and Egyptian officials have declined to comment.

Premier Silvio Berlusconi's government will respond in parliament today to demands to know whether Italian officials were involved, the leftist opposition said.

Court officials said they had no evidence of Italian involvement. But Vince Cannistraro, a former leading counterterrorism official in the CIA, said he doubted the US government would launch such an operation in an allied country without coordinating first with the government.


www.aljazeera.com...


A report published Thursday by The Washington Post, quoting current and former CIA veterans, revealed that the CIA informed Italy's intelligence service about its plan to kidnap an Islamic leader in Milan two years ago.

However, neither the Italian authorities nor Washington have officially acknowledged the abduction.

On Friday, the Corriere della Sera daily in Rome reported that a judge had issued arrest warrants for 13 CIA agents.

The Imam’s kidnapping fueled anti-U.S. feelings in Italy.

On February 17, 2003, Abu Omar, or Usama Mustafa Hassan, was snatched by two Italian-speakers who claimed they want to check his identity in a street of Milan.

The Imam has been missing since, the paper said.

Abu Omar was the former imam of a Milan mosque; placed under close watch, following the Sep 11 attacks in the United States.

The CIA is accused of kidnapping the Muslim Imam and transferring him to the U.S. military base at Aviano in Italy, and from there to Egypt, where he was put in jail.

Italian Judge Chiara Nobili issued the request of the anti-terrorist division of the state prosecutor's office.

Among the 13 wanted CIA agents is the alleged head of the operation, who was an accredited diplomat with the U.S. consulate in Milan in 2003, the Italian daily said.

A CIA veteran told The Washington Post on Thursday that the CIA "told a number of people" about its kidnapping plan, but "certainly not the magistrate, not the Milan police".

The CIA station chief in Rome, who retired at that time but remains undercover, sought approval from his counterpart in Italy for the operation, the agents said.

But it remains unclear how far up the chain of command the information was shared or whether the office of Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi was aware, according to the Italian newspaper.

CIA officials say that the operation was conceived by the Rome CIA station chief and organized by the CIA's Counterterrorism Center, and approved by the CIA leadership and at least one person at the National Security Council.

The officials added that it was standard practice for the CIA and its Italian counterpart to agree to keep official silence on the covert kidnapping operation if it became public.

The Post said it was informed by Knowledgeable intelligence officials that the CIA has conducted at least 100 such operations since September 11.



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