Avro Arrow '09

I have seen a few ads in Acro Arrow books and a few websites saying that the Avro Arrow will be resurrected in 2009. I am a lover of the Avro Arrow, and would be really really grateful if someone could shed some light on this.

Canada destoyed the Arrow and sent the engineers down south, who designed planes such as the F15.

What I still have trouble understanding is why and what could Canada possibly gain on that arrangement. Diefenbaker was a fool and perhap's US tool.

Dallas

i found a book that makes such a claim:

THE ARROW SCRAPBOOK

by Peter Zuring

The ultimate book on the ultimate aircraft to ever come out of Canada. Uncover the mystery and the myth in this definitive collection of rarely seen photos, drawings, letters and original documents.This book sets the record straight and describes plans to re-create the mythic Arrow by 2009.

Click here (midsection of page)

its a start i guess.

Originally posted by Dallas
What I still have trouble understanding is why and what could Canada possibly gain on that arrangement. Diefenbaker was a fool and perhap's US tool.

Dallas

He definately was a fool. The U.S. President at the time (forget who it was at the moment) convinced Diefenbaker that missiles were the wave of the future. That it was there was no reason to put pilots in harms way when you could just use a missile to intercept the USSR bombers insted... well the Bomarc missile was a piece of # and a waste of money.

I believe (and i'm not sure how true this is or not) that the U.S. was afraid that the Arrow would be able to reveal there U-2 spy planes, which were top secret at the time (I think, again not sure on that bit).

It would be nice to have a full sized, working Arrow, at least one. Give those of us who wern't alive at the time to see one fly. I know there was a group in Calgary that was trying to build a 2/3 scale flying arrow, but I think lack of money and organization killed that project.

He definately was a fool.

I totally agree Diefenbaker was a fool, he threw away a great Canadian military and technological achievement. I'm pretty sure he was used by the US in order to get them to scrap the Arrow as Dallas mentioned. It's such a pity that such a beautiful thing met its demise so quickly.

BTW there was a movie made about it staring Dan Ackroyd that's pretty interesting although its not 100% accurate, but then again, what movie is.


[edit on 24-6-2005 by Ponderosa]

Dallas

It would be nice to have a full sized, working Arrow, at least one. Give those of us who wern't alive at the time to see one fly. I know there was a group in Calgary that was trying to build a 2/3 scale flying arrow, but I think lack of money and organization killed that project.

I think so. Go to the Toronto Aeronautics Museum. My unc works there. He's building an arrow... its like 8/10 size, but it takes up an entire hangar. I never realized just how big it was until I saw the scale drawings on the hangar floor. It's by the DeHavilland building, but I think they are moving in the future. It won't fly, though, but it looks really majestic. He's got a real fuel pump from Arrow 20.... I don't know. But apparently someone came in and drove off with a truckload of Arrow stuff while the rip guys were on coffee break hehe....

Diefenbaker was a complete idiot. Canada could have beaten down the US with that aircraft, and you guys wouldn't have gotten supersonic technology for a good while. And BTW, Arrow 206, with its Orenda Iroquois engines never flew, for those who have seen the movie. And it didn't go to space. No aircraft could sustain a vertical climb, not even the new 70,000 Pound thrust (I think this is the new standard?) engines, compared to our 40-50,000 pound thrusters.... I think these figures are right, correct me if I'm wrong.

very rigth about the us not being able to get proper supersonic aircraft that nearest plane the us had at teh time was the dagger or vodoo (which we ended up getting in the end) which had trouble goin past mach 1 in level flight the arrow would of been able to break the barrier in a climb and the with the Orenda engines (from testing figures) woudl of bee abel to sustain mach 2.5. also a lil knowen fact the enginers of the orenda engines that ended up making the usa's sr 71 had a reworked idea for the orenda that would of put the arrow through mach 3. honestly i want to piss on Diefenbaker's grave and one else want to goin me? we can take pic's and post em on the net or these forums. the tool has had it comin to him.

I dont know much about this plane, but one thing is for certain: ITS HUGE

This plane is absolutely huge. I saw the thing at Wetaskiwin (model used in The Arrow movie) and its only like 2/3 of the size, and I can still stand inside the engine ports!

btw, I didn't know bout the SR71 relation to Orenda. Thats great to know. But yeah, I'll help ya. Target: Diefenbaker's Grave. Location: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada. Status: Ripe for the pissing.

Where is Intell Girl or Seekerof when they're needed?
The Arrow was a pretty aircraft, to be sure, but most of the claims in this thread are just false. Kelly Johnson and Lockheed and the Mc Donald Douglas development team did not need Canadian assistance to come up with the SR-71 or Eagle.
The nationalist mythology surrounding the Arrow is simply pathetic to listen to. Bombardier is a great company, why not have them come up with an indigious fighter?
Maybe because the current Canuck government is so corrupt and weak that it makes Diefenbaker look like a giant.

Hey, last time I checked the closest thing Americans had to supersonic flight was the upgraded F-86 Super Sabre, and that thing was totally destroyed in its dive! Granted you guys would have gotten it in due time, but it was the Canadians who busted their butts and got the secret first. If it weren't for your damn bomarck missiles we probably could have developed the Avro Bomber (it was only a drawing, not even prototyped. But it was planned) and then gone on to make something that actually looked a whole lot like a MiG 29. The current Canadian gov't is a piece, true enough. But we're still Canadians. Say hello to NASA for me

Originally posted by Realist05
most of the claims in this thread are just false. Kelly Johnson and Lockheed and the Mc Donald Douglas development team did not need Canadian assistance to come up with the SR-71 or Eagle.

Well the thing is, after Avro Canada got shut down, a lot of Canadians did move down to the states to find jobs. A lot of them went to go work at other aerospace companies. I believe some went to NASA and others probably to McDonald Douglas, etc. Whether their contribution to there projects was any significant isn't the point. The fact is some went south. I believe that is referred to as a "brain drain".

EDIT: An example of one such person. Rod Rose. He worked on the Avro Arrow, later moved down south and worked for NASA. He was the key engineer for NASA's space programme from Mercury to the Shuttle. So there you go.

EDIT 2: More examples of Avro engineers moving south. Although this is again, for NASA. I'll quote a bit from Jim Chamberlin's bio.

In April, 1959, Chamberlin and two dozen other engineers from Avro were recruited by the fledgling National Aeronautics and Space Administration in the United States. The Avro group, which eventually included 32 engineers, joined NASA's Space Task Group at the Langley Research Center in Hampton, Virginia. The group later moved to Houston, Texas, to become the core of what is today the Johnson Space Center.

You can read more here if you want. www.avroarrow.org...

[edit on 24-6-2005 by jra]

The claims over supersonics are way off the mark. The Arrow was a truly excellent fighter, no question, and the RAF specifically killed the supersonic Javelin (Gloster P.376) because it wanted the Arrow as the replacement for the Lightning (still brand new at the time and the best interceptor in the world - thats how good the Arrow was).

BUT- As far as supersonic fighters goes, the worlds first (after Stalin blew it and forced the Sukhoi Su 17 to be scrapped when almost complete in 1949) was the North American F-100 which flew in 1953, the following year the F-104 was the first mach 2 fighter, in 1956 Convair had a mach 2 fighter and bomber double with the F-106 and B-58. By contrast the Arrow didn't fly until 1958, same year as the production version of the EE Lightning and also three years after the first Soviet mach 2 fighter the MiG 21.

Not wanting to set off anybody here, but the Arrow bears quite a resemblance to the F-108 Rapier that never made it past mock up.

Yet another case of America copying the bright ideas of others, for shame.

Originally posted by waynos
Yet another case of America copying the bright ideas of others, for shame.

Hmmm I thought they were developed at about the same time

Yes, they were. I knew someone would say it so I decided to be first.

Originally posted by waynos
The claims over supersonics are way off the mark. The Arrow was a truly excellent fighter, no question, and the RAF specifically killed the supersonic Javelin (Gloster P.376) because it wanted the Arrow as the replacement for the Lightning (still brand new at the time and the best interceptor in the world - thats how good the Arrow was).

BUT- As far as supersonic fighters goes, the worlds first (after Stalin blew it and forced the Sukhoi Su 17 to be scrapped when almost complete in 1949) was the North American F-100 which flew in 1953, the following year the F-104 was the first mach 2 fighter, in 1956 Convair had a mach 2 fighter and bomber double with the F-106 and B-58. By contrast the Arrow didn't fly until 1958, same year as the production version of the EE Lightning and also three years after the first Soviet mach 2 fighter the MiG 21.

I thought the CF-100 did a heavy dive and broke the sound barrier. But it don't count since it had a rather nasty appointment with the ground. Fair enough, though, you make some valid points. But the Arrow was the most environmentally capable. They hit obscene targets for maneuverability and capability, showing good performance in anywhere from Arctic to (apparently) arid climates. It was also, to my knowledge, the first application of a working autopilot based on coordinates. It was also the first all-Canadian plane that was more than a garbage can with wings and (for weapons) a guy tied to it with a handgun.

Originally posted by Darkpr0
...a garbage can with wings and (for weapons) a guy tied to it with a handgun.

Sadly that's probably all Canada could afford to do right now.

If those damn liberal would get off the stage and let the conservatives take over (and maybe Quebec ACTUALLY separates) we could crank out a few better planes. Canadians have great ideas, but we don't have the population or income to actually put them into action. The Avro Arrow was one of those great ideas. If the Americans gave us a hand we might actually have the funds to make the next Avro Arrow of our century... Perhaps outdo the infamous Aurora?